how long did it take you to learn your dps job to a comfortable level?

So, I am still learning dragoon. I am trying multiple other dps jobs and had a fair share of jobs I like and jobs that aren't for me. So for the dps job(s) you enjoy, how long did it take you to learn it in a depth that you feel comfortable with?

To dragoon players specifically: how long will it take to really learn the job (when to do raid wide buffs, certain rotation nuances, life as a dragon, etc)?

One of the things the game doesn't do well is explain what the intended or optimal rotation for any job is. They leave that to the players to figure out. This is fine from a game design philosophy perspective, but it does make learning how to do things well almost impossible without reading a player-written guide, for most players. Once you've found a good guide, learning a rotation is mostly just a matter of sitting down at a Lv1 target dummy and pressing buttons until you get used to it.

As for buffs, the current standard has everyone's buffs on 2 minute or 1 minute cooldowns, so using buffs at the right time is really just about activating them at the right spot in your opener, then using them on cooldown thereafter. The nature of cooldown timers will have everyone's buffs lining up if everyone is using them on cooldown. From there, carve out exceptions with your party members when specific fights have downtime or mechanics that conflict with the 2min burst, and hold buffs accordingly.

Hitting the dummy for about an hour at level cap.
Going over my opener, and then learning how to line up other resources with the 2 minute window.

It was actually pretty easy with SMN because you had to start from the beginning back then.

You started with Ruin, then to Bio, then to Miasma, Bane, then Golden Carby, then another Bio then another Miasma, then Ruin 2 (insta cast), Pet commands, you didn't get the Enkindles until 50th so it didn't come for a while. It just didn't tell you all the Bios and all the Miasmas stacked. So you had to figure that out for yourself. I seem to remember there being 3 Miasmas (one was an AoE), and 2 Bios, and then you'd use Bane to spread them in an AoE.

You also had to use the Contagion from Garuda once you went SMN so that it would extend the duration and you didn't have to keep spamming 5 different Poison DoTs each with a different duration and constantly keep tabs on the timers. That was the hard part. Figuring out how they all fit together though was pretty easy. Eventually they added Dreadwyrm past 50th, but they show you how to use it in the Quest Line. The only thing they didn't tell you was to make sure you use the controls on Egis as little as humanly possible or you'd regret it.


The wonky one was RDM when it first came out, because that one doesn't even show you the basics like BLM did.

So I remember taking up the class and going ok... so supposedly this job double casts. *casts Verthunder*
OMG this takes forever to cast, then casting it a second time right afterwords, like a dual Verthunder, or a Veraero afterwards thinking OMG this is wayyyy too long of an initial cast time.
Well this Jolt one is pretty fast maybe if I use that one first it will work.... yup, guess that's how you do it. (Not exactly intuitive, but doable)

Then I decided... ok well it looks like the Red Button is the first one you use... so... lets try the AoEs now...
*casts Scatter*....
Huh? Why is this taking so damn long to cast!
*Clicks Verthunder2*
Well that was fast... wait... wtf? This one is completely backwards... you do the opposite for this one?
The first version was Jolt to start it off... the AoEs you do the complete opposite and start with the Verthunder first... then close with Scatter?
Who thought that a good idea?

I don't know if it's better these days... but back then it was just a lot of... ???... and that was before you even got into the more complex stuff like putting all the other things together in a coherant whole.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

It was actually pretty easy with SMN because you had to start from the beginning back then.

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Playing with an incomplete action set for many levels makes it really easy to develop bad habits. Good rotations are easier to learn with a complete action set.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

The wonky one was RDM when it first came out, because that one doesn't even show you the basics like BLM did.

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The RDM NPC literally tells you how to Dualcast in the first combat quest.

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Originally Posted by X'rhun Tia

...Ah, but before we resume the hunt, let us be sure of your technique. As a red mage you are capable of casting two spells in rapid succession using what is known as the “Dualcast” effect.

Intone a short spell, and you will find that a lengthy incantation can now be cast in an instant. Take advantage of this technique to bombard your foes with arcane destruction!

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In other words, hardcast a fast spell and then instant cast a slow spell.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

Playing with an incomplete action set for many levels makes it really easy to develop bad habits. Good rotations are easier to learn with a complete action set.

The RDM NPC literally tells you how to Dualcast in the first combat quest.

In other words, hardcast a fast spell and then instant cast a slow spell.

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Well that is actually what I did.

The problem is that's kinda vague. So you have to experiement with it yourself. It's not like BLM where they tell you outright to use Fire to do damage and Ice to do MP restore and then use Transpose to switch between them and walk you thought those parts. On top of that, its completely backwards doing Single Target vs AoE spells. Which of course takes another very non intuitive leap. Which is what made RDM so wonky to start with vs SMN back then.

I also disagree,

It is better to get the techniques one at a time as they fit together so you understand how they fit together, then you can start experimenting with what works best for you. You need to learn to crawl before you can walk. Case and point if you try BLM without every having learned those basics, and try to jump straight into Enochian, first of all you're likely going to be lost. Secondly, you have a better chance of developing bad habits if you don't even know the basics of how to run it and manage to figure it out anyway.

RDM though you had no choice, it was figure it out on the fly whether you wanted to or not.

any tips on figuring out when is the right time to buff the party? Should it be my first action in my raid?

I dont know that BLM is the best example for your theory. The correct rotation changes every 10 levels or so, but the game stops teaching useful techniques by like level 10. The class quests focus on sleep, begging for mercy, crying, and running away. They might teach transpose, but this stops being standard before level 50(falling out of the "rotation" into the "post fight" or "edge-case optimization" categories). They never teach how to effectively use flare(or its single target version later). In AoE situations double(up to quad!) flare is the intention, but they teach none of that - you need to piece it together yourself from trait and spell descriptions or find a rotation guide on the internet.

All of which is to say, bad habits are just as easy to develop getting one skill at a time as they are to develop with a class that starts at level 70 with 90% of its kit in hand.

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Originally Posted by Local_Custard

any tips on figuring out when is the right time to buff the party? Should it be my first action in my raid?

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Generally, if your buff or debuff lasts 20 seconds, use it immediately after your first GCD during the fight (not whatever you pull the boss with). If it's 15 seconds, weave in after 2 more GCDs (the third). DNC is a special case because Technical Finish'll take time to deploy, so start it immediately after the fight starts and it'll buff everyone at the right time (after those 4 dance steps, and you weave Devilment in right after the buff so both it and Tech are on your partner for 20 sec simultaneously); remember to pull the boss with a readied Standard Finish so you and your partner are stronger immediately and because it's a big hit you want on cooldown asap. They kinda design most jobs around fitting everything in every 2 min within that period of 15 to 20 seconds.

If you're playing something more out of the loop like AST, try and keep an eye on any job in your party that has a more defined rotation, like DNC, as Technical Finish'll buff everyone in your party every 2 min. Knowledge of other job buffs can help.

As you get deeper, sometimes it helps to hold buffs, like during an add phase where the boss isn't attackable (if the boss will return before your buffs come back again) because extra damage on the add phase doesn't usually help your group beat the boss faster unless it's struggling with the adds themselves. Another case is when you have multiple of the same job. Since jobs get cooldowns usually every 60,90 or 120 seconds, if you're the second DNC in a party try to use your 2 min every odd minute while the other DNC hits every even minute of a fight. This goes for debuffs on a target too, like SCH's Chain Strategem or NIN's Mug, as these effects cannot stack but everyone in the alliance raid benefits while they're active.

Also, this isn't as much of a thing anymore, but be mindful to watch to see if your buff actually hits everyone. For example, sometimes boss hitboxes are huge and the tank insists on standing waaaay at the far end of it for no reason so you might not reach them, or your buff might return right after the group spread out for an attack.

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Originally Posted by Local_Custard

any tips on figuring out when is the right time to buff the party? Should it be my first action in my raid?

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If you want to build good habits, use your raid buff after your third gcd. There is wiggle room for it (Reapers and summoners use their raid buff earlier than the 3 gcd typically), but for every other job its pretty much standard. The only reason for this is that it takes on average 3 gcds for all jobs to really get the momentum going with their rotation so you even if you yourself aren't "amazing", your alignment makes the people in the party who are well practiced, better. I recommend the balance's website. They have a little info chart of how your rotation should go and multiple openers depending on your job, try them out and see which one works best for you!

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

It is better to get the techniques one at a time as they fit together so you understand how they fit together, then you can start experimenting with what works best for you. You need to learn to crawl before you can walk.

Secondly, you have a better chance of developing bad habits if you don't even know the basics of how to run it and manage to figure it out anyway.

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What I said was:

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Originally Posted by Rongway

Playing with an incomplete action set for many levels makes it really easy to develop bad habits. Good rotations are easier to learn with a complete action set.

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Obviously nobody expects someone to try to make sense of later actions in the set without understanding the earlier actions; however, if a player spends too long using the early actions without the later ones they may develop an inaccurate understanding of the earlier actions that makes it harder to use the later ones effectively.

Red Mage for example. If they try to learn it like a Lv1 starter job, by only playing low level stuff until they're used to the basics, without cross referencing the higher level actions periodically, it's really easy to develop two bad habits:

1. Starting a melee combo at 50|50 or some other balanced value.
2. Casting Verstone-Verthunder when White is at +1 or Verfire-Veraero when Black is at +1, which leaves them balanced.

These two mistakes have no negative impact until 68/70, at which point they suddenly become significant mistakes.

Which also brings me back to my original statement,

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Originally Posted by Rongway

One of the things the game doesn't do well is explain what the intended or optimal rotation for any job is. They leave that to the players to figure out. This is fine from a game design philosophy perspective, but it does make learning how to do things well almost impossible without reading a player-written guide, for most players. Once you've found a good guide, learning a rotation is mostly just a matter of sitting down at a Lv1 target dummy and pressing buttons until you get used to it.

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Starting at Lv1, the vast majority of learners can't learn how to play a job well unless they have some outside party warning them about possible mistakes like that. Like, "Hey, Rongway, I know the whole job concept alleges that you're meant to keep your Mana balanced, but make sure you keep them not-exactly-equal. Trust me." Without outside advice, if they're just looking at the actions one at a time from Lv1, they're going to learn the job wrong.

Honestly?

Never be comfortable, never be enough, always try to improve.

On the other hand.

Don't let anybody tell you that what you do isn't enough.

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Originally Posted by ICountFrom0

Honestly?

Never be comfortable, never be enough, always try to improve.

On the other hand.

Don't let anybody tell you that what you do isn't enough.

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You know what? You're right, I'm sick of not liking monk because I hate the rotation. Imma dragon kick only p12s right now

OP: Look up your Job here https://www.thebalanceffxiv.com/

It tends to have a general overview that explains things. Note that it uses the level 90 abilities, so if some abilities upgrade, you might have to open your Actions and Traits and figure out which ones do. Sometimes it's kind of easy like WHM Stone becoming Glare and just having the spell ranks, but other times it's a bit more confusing, like BRD's Straight Shot becoming Refulgent Arrow (I think...), but if you can manage that, the guides there give you suggested openers, which tell you when to use your party buff (after the first time, you use it on CD unless the boss goes untargetable and you hold it for the "reopener" when they come back), and the guides also will give you some explanation of the nuances of the Jobs.

Oh, also, if you want a "preview" of Jobs, you can go into PotD and que for the floor 51-60 runs, and you can unlock PotD at level 30, I think? You need your Job stone to see the Job's abilities, but once you have that, going into PotD you can play with the level 60 kit. Which...is a lot less than it used to be, but is something. HoH and Bozja (sorta) and Orthos also all allow you to play around with more of the kit, but if you're low level and trying to see if a Job might be a fit for you, PotD is good for giving you at least a BASIC idea oof what it does and some of its rotation and abilities. Nothing is perfect, but it's not a terrible way to dip a toe in and test the waters of a Job to see if you might like it.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

It was actually pretty easy with SMN because you had to start from the beginning back then.
....
The wonky one was RDM when it first came out,
...
Then I decided... ok well it looks like the Red Button is the first one you use... so... lets try the AoEs now...
*casts Scatter*....
Huh? Why is this taking so damn long to cast!
*Clicks Verthunder2*

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Are you...remembering things correctly?

RDM didn't get Verthunder/aero2 until ShB, did it? I think all it had in SB was Impact/Scatter and you just dualcasted it with itself or something:

https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Verthunder_II

"Patch 5.0"

And yeah, as Rongway said, the NPC teaches you this in the starter quests and I thought it was really intuitive. Same with Verflare/Holy as reading it told you exactly what you needed to do.

The only things not really intuitive about RDM were exactly when to use Manafication (since it gave a variable amount of Mana and you didn't want to overcap) and some optimization around that. This persisted into EW (where they did add Verthunder/aero II and yes, I agree it's backward and that drives me batty and I wish they'd reverse it), Enchanted Reprise, and Scorch, but ALSO removed Verholy/Flare and Scorch as separate buttons, making them Veraero/thunder and Jolt's buttons. EW added to the optimization skillcap with the Manafication to 50/50 change making optimal burst more important to pull off and harder, which kinda scoots RDM out of "beginner friendly" territory (though the overall flow of the Job is still easy to pick up), and made Enchanted Reprise far less useful, but Acceleration more useful, so...kind of a wash there.

ARR through ShB SMN was horrible to learn. Few people played it optimally because of how convoluted it was and how things changed as you leveled (Bahamut required going into DWT twice...then suddenly only once...then you got FBT which upended your rotation again. SMN before EW was horrible at teaching you the Job, honestly.

I do agree with you, though, that I think it's good when the game gives you your core rotation relatively early as you level and then adds more of the "extras/side stuff" later, that way you can get a good feel for the core of the Job early. Like RDM gets Dualcast at level 1, even before it gets Jolt (2) and even though you can't actually sync to level 1 anyway (outside of VERY briefly in PotD). I do think it's a good idea to get the core of the Job down by level 50, 60 at the latest, so that players can start getting that muscle memory and just add to that over time from there. WAR is one of the best examples (though I'd give it Storm's Path earlier) because by level 50, you have the full rotation, upkeep buffs, beast gauge spender, filler, and your 1 min burst CD, which basically has you with your full compliment of abilities from that point on for the player to build off of, but they're gained as you level so it's not all thrown on you at level 1, either.

I think it was about 4 or 5 months before I entered and cleared a savage on BLM. This was while playing the MSQ and other content so would be less actual time I guess. I also think I could have done it sooner than when I started doing high end content.

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Originally Posted by Rychu

If you want to build good habits, use your raid buff after your third gcd. There is wiggle room for it (Reapers and summoners use their raid buff earlier than the 3 gcd typically), but for every other job its pretty much standard. The only reason for this is that it takes on average 3 gcds for all jobs to really get the momentum going with their rotation so you even if you yourself aren't "amazing", your alignment makes the people in the party who are well practiced, better. I recommend the balance's website. They have a little info chart of how your rotation should go and multiple openers depending on your job, try them out and see which one works best for you!

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^ This

BLM for example uses 2 low damage ice spells when entering astral fire, and dots somewhere in there too. So for example: Bliz III > Bliz IV > Fire III > then the main Fire IV / Paradox rotation. I tend to save my first Thunder until buffs are up then refresh during phase changes (whether thats optimal I dont know, Im a casual high end player).

If the raid buffs were applied immediately then its wasted on the first 3 GCD's.

Maybe an hour after hitting level cap. Now optimizing it while dancing around mechanics? Still working on that one.

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Originally Posted by Post

Generally, if your buff or debuff lasts 20 seconds, use it immediately after your first GCD during the fight (not whatever you pull the boss with). If it's 15 seconds, weave in after 2 more GCDs (the third). DNC is a special case because Technical Finish'll take time to deploy, so start it immediately after the fight starts and it'll buff everyone at the right time (after those 4 dance steps, and you weave Devilment in right after the buff so both it and Tech are on your partner for 20 sec simultaneously); remember to pull the boss with a readied Standard Finish so you and your partner are stronger immediately and because it's a big hit you want on cooldown asap. They kinda design most jobs around fitting everything in every 2 min within that period of 15 to 20 seconds.

If you're playing something more out of the loop like AST, try and keep an eye on any job in your party that has a more defined rotation, like DNC, as Technical Finish'll buff everyone in your party every 2 min. Knowledge of other job buffs can help.

As you get deeper, sometimes it helps to hold buffs, like during an add phase where the boss isn't attackable (if the boss will return before your buffs come back again) because extra damage on the add phase doesn't usually help your group beat the boss faster unless it's struggling with the adds themselves. Another case is when you have multiple of the same job. Since jobs get cooldowns usually every 60,90 or 120 seconds, if you're the second DNC in a party try to use your 2 min every odd minute while the other DNC hits every even minute of a fight. This goes for debuffs on a target too, like SCH's Chain Strategem or NIN's Mug, as these effects cannot stack but everyone in the alliance raid benefits while they're active.

Also, this isn't as much of a thing anymore, but be mindful to watch to see if your buff actually hits everyone. For example, sometimes boss hitboxes are huge and the tank insists on standing waaaay at the far end of it for no reason so you might not reach them, or your buff might return right after the group spread out for an attack.

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oh I did not know the buff doesn't help with the add phase! I tended to use it because I though killing the adds faster may help- tho maybe the buff doesn't speed things along feasibly enough?

Ah, it is very much a thing, I think! Sometimes I use divination and it doesn't hit everyone in alliance raids. Getting to know other people's buffs hmm... So when using divination, what kinda buffs should I want out for with each class to know when to press it?

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Originally Posted by Rychu

If you want to build good habits, use your raid buff after your third gcd. There is wiggle room for it (Reapers and summoners use their raid buff earlier than the 3 gcd typically), but for every other job its pretty much standard. The only reason for this is that it takes on average 3 gcds for all jobs to really get the momentum going with their rotation so you even if you yourself aren't "amazing", your alignment makes the people in the party who are well practiced, better. I recommend the balance's website. They have a little info chart of how your rotation should go and multiple openers depending on your job, try them out and see which one works best for you!

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Can you remind me what a third GCD is? I sometime forget words/acronyms. What would an astro's third GCD be for example? I shall give that website a good look!

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Originally Posted by Renathras

OP: Look up your Job here https://www.thebalanceffxiv.com/

It tends to have a general overview that explains things. Note that it uses the level 90 abilities, so if some abilities upgrade, you might have to open your Actions and Traits and figure out which ones do. Sometimes it's kind of easy like WHM Stone becoming Glare and just having the spell ranks, but other times it's a bit more confusing, like BRD's Straight Shot becoming Refulgent Arrow (I think...), but if you can manage that, the guides there give you suggested openers, which tell you when to use your party buff (after the first time, you use it on CD unless the boss goes untargetable and you hold it for the "reopener" when they come back), and the guides also will give you some explanation of the nuances of the Jobs.

Oh, also, if you want a "preview" of Jobs, you can go into PotD and que for the floor 51-60 runs, and you can unlock PotD at level 30, I think? You need your Job stone to see the Job's abilities, but once you have that, going into PotD you can play with the level 60 kit. Which...is a lot less than it used to be, but is something. HoH and Bozja (sorta) and Orthos also all allow you to play around with more of the kit, but if you're low level and trying to see if a Job might be a fit for you, PotD is good for giving you at least a BASIC idea oof what it does and some of its rotation and abilities. Nothing is perfect, but it's not a terrible way to dip a toe in and test the waters of a Job to see if you might like it.[...]

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oh yeah, another vote for looking at the website for me! I have some homework it seems ^^
Yeah, but sometimes when reading guides my brain doesn't soak everything in. I understand that for me, I may learn better in steps- like for example I am trying to better understand dragoon positionals. I think I have a general grasp on astro- tho I may need to read more and brush up over information. I think for me, it is the complicated layer of understanding other buffs so that I can better plan. Well- I do happen to favor jobs that take longer to master so no harm in brushing over basics just in case. I do have PoTD unlocked- if I remember correctly 51-60 shouldn't be too difficult to solo and better learn the class. Though, would you recommend later deep dungeons for later levels (like HoH?)

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Originally Posted by Tiramu

I think it was about 4 or 5 months before I entered and cleared a savage on BLM. This was while playing the MSQ and other content so would be less actual time I guess. I also think I could have done it sooner than when I started doing high end content.



^ This

BLM for example uses 2 low damage ice spells when entering astral fire, and dots somewhere in there too. So for example: Bliz III > Bliz IV > Fire III > then the main Fire IV / Paradox rotation. I tend to save my first Thunder until buffs are up then refresh during phase changes (whether thats optimal I dont know, Im a casual high end player).

If the raid buffs were applied immediately then its wasted on the first 3 GCD's.

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I think my brain is getting overwhelmed but I will be sure to note this for later! (I play BLM)

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Originally Posted by Local_Custard

Can you remind me what a third GCD is? I sometime forget words/acronyms. What would an astro's third GCD be for example? I shall give that website a good look!

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A GCD is a community made term which is short for (Global Cooldown). A GCD refers to any spell or skill that takes a recast before you can press another GCD. Spells like Fall Malefic, Combust III, and Gravity II are all GCDs for Astro. They require 2.5 seconds before you can press another GCD. There is also OGCDs which is an Off Global Cooldown or an ability that can be pressed while you wait for your recast to come off. This would be pressing Draw inbetween casting Fall Malefic. You get to keep pressing the ability that does damage while also using the rest of your kit. As a general rule of thumb you always want to keep your Global Cooldown rolling, if you are doing that then that means you are at worst, mediocre. which is a lot better than some people you meet tbh.

I don't play astro but it seems like you start with Fall Malefic, then combust III, then Fall Malefic spam until combust III needs to be refreshed. Ill add the balance opener visual guide below for help but tbh, astro is one of the hardest openers so I wouldn't pay too much attention to the nitty gritty of this. It is going to be revamped in Dawntrail and probably have an easier opener if I had to bet money on it.

https://www.thebalanceffxiv.com/img/...w_opener_4.png

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Are you...remembering things correctly?

RDM didn't get Verthunder/aero2 until ShB, did it? I think all it had in SB was Impact/Scatter and you just dualcasted it with itself or something:

https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Verthunder_II

"Patch 5.0"

And yeah, as Rongway said, the NPC teaches you this in the starter quests and I thought it was really intuitive. Same with Verflare/Holy as reading it told you exactly what you needed to do

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You know you might actually be right about that,

I seem to remember back then double casting Scatter at points, but at the same time I remember using Verthunder 2 while working it up to 60th for Stormblood in PoTD. I know we had Moulinet because I recall using that in AoE dungeon scenarios. That was a while ago. But it may have been when I came back into the game during ShB and got those and was shocked that it was backwards for the AoEs. But I definitely remember having to experiment which to use first, Jolt or Verthunder due to the fact the Questline only said cast short spells first not which spells to use first so you had to experiment.

The weapon skills into Verholy and Verflare were pretty easy since they all lit up in order on your bar, but things like Acceleration were kinda... what is this for?

That said I do agree with you that the job flows really well and is very rhythmic once you figure it out.