Cylva wanted to meet Zero but the game didn't allow me to introduce them

Heyho!

So I was excited to introduce Cylva/Unukalhai and Zero finally in 6.5! Just a cute little extra scene nothing major, I'm aware that it's something only 5% of players

Edit: accidentally posted it already, I wasn't finished!

Anyway, I'm aware few people will see it so it ain't gonna be a big deal. But the writers made Cylva say she wants to meet Zero. Why did she say that? Why didn't they do something so they wouldn't need to write an extra scene If they didn't wanna do it? They just left it out completely and it feels awkward. It's so important if you played the side story. I recommend every writer to take things like that into account before writing plot points that might haunt you later. Now I just wish Cylva and Unu had never been in the story to begin with. We probably just imagined them like Fray. All they are is weird ghosts without meaning.

You ever heard of something called 'the future'? It's a wonderful place where things can happen, you just have to wait and see. They probably will meet sometime, they just didn't meet now!

I think it's an interesting wrinkle to their respective stories, actually: the notion that they are working to the same purpose, completely agree with each other and would like to meet, but are just so distant that they can't plausibly meet up, at least not yet: even if they somehow found a common place to meet up (already unlikely), they're coming from such different directions that doing so would be a real hard task. It's an interesting seed for future Void-focused storylines, which I think at this point they've narratively committed to.

Besides, getting them to meet at the point where they suggest it would be REALLY hard even for us: that's a multi-legged journey relying on multiple vessel transfers that have some iffy tangential questions about them that, given Zero's current nature, you'd really want to get straight. And even that trip leaves Golbez stranded, which sucks, because he should also be invited! He and Unukalhai have some stuff to talk about RE: whose fault that flood of darkness was.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and also they'd have to get Cylva voice actors, which isn't exactly nothing.

No, they could have plausibly met up at the Crystarium when we were there with Zero, you played the story, you know that. I'm glad for you that you liked the fact that they didn't meet and I don't want to take that away from you, that's not the point.

We have fundamental differences that can not be reconciled and if we met at the writer's table and you decided on not having them meet up, I would always oppose you with all my heart.

I agree that they will meet in the future where Cylva and Unu have been freed from the shackles of being inaccessible content for most. That doesn't erase the fact that it was in my opinion a wasted opportunity that significantly reduced my enjoyment of the Crystarium episode in the story. It wasn't due to too lofty expectations on my part, it was a reasonable expectation.

It's fine to be disappointed and it's fun to be critical and to be negative. It's not a big deal that needs immediate correction as though there was a destructive spirit of malice at work that only seeks to reduce other people's enjoyment.

I know there are people that wallow in misery about the game. That's not me. To prove this I will make a positive thread in this subforum soon about Azdaja.

We didn't tell Zero about them until we were leaving the 13th post triumph. Could the writers have had that chance happen while we were on the 1st? Well, yeah. I think that if they had gone and done that then we would have a different gripe from others in that the story dragged on. As with the last patch people felt that doing something people have asked for the devs to do which is to show us getting permission and working with people and not doing the memed and just assumed doing it without asking was annoying cause it wasn't straight to the point. So I doubt a short hey come meet two survivors of the 13th would have faired any better.

The line where we can tell her about Team Void Quest, and her reaction to that line, tells me that they'll be involving them in the future somehow. Whenever we return back to the 13th. I dunno if they're gonna bring them in to the MSQ or stick to a side quest chain or what, but it seems pretty certain they'll be playing a role.

And since Zero didn't know about them before we got to the first, and we were on a slight time crunch and were already busy while we were there, I'm not too surprised the WoL didn't tackle that conversation at the time. She knows now, though. So you'll likely get the meeting eventually.

Yeah I'm deffo looking forward to that happening.

I am 100% certain that the writers couldn't make the scene work for for example lack of resources rather than them believing that it was better for the story not to have it.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

We didn't tell Zero about them until we were leaving the 13th post triumph. Could the writers have had that chance happen while we were on the 1st? Well, yeah. I think that if they had gone and done that then we would have a different gripe from others in that the story dragged on. As with the last patch people felt that doing something people have asked for the devs to do which is to show us getting permission and working with people and not doing the memed and just assumed doing it without asking was annoying cause it wasn't straight to the point. So I doubt a short hey come meet two survivors of the 13th would have faired any better.

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I think there's also logistical and technical factors as well: how much of the storytelling would feasibly have to change (quite plausibly for the worse) if there was a scene introducing Zero to Cylva back when she was in the First, when Zero hadn't even thought of fixing the First as an option? Honestly, I'm not sure, but it'd be a lot more than just one isolated scene. And do you know the last time we've had an entirely optional MSQ scene reliant on having done previous content? THIS PATCH, Gaia was the first time! And technically isn't even a new scene, just an extension of an existing one; I'm not even sure if it's technically possible for them to do an entirely conditional start-to-end cutscene, which is what you'd have to do to introduce Cylva during the first visit.

While I can understand why we couldn't get them to interact, it still could have been handled more elegantly IMO.

Maybe while Zero is in the First, Cyella moves away from her usual "stand and provide exposition" spot (bonus points if they set up some kind of observe-in-the-overworld scene with the Virtue Hunters team having a party or something) and if you talk to her she says it's chaotically busy today and she can't talk now. So you've tried to make the offer but can't get a word in edgeways.

Same avoidance of crossing the story streams but without the weirdness of her being fully free to meet with Zero right now and you're just not making the offer.

At this point they are actively making the content worse for people who do all the content to pander to people to only do the MSQ and it’s actually making the MSQ worse because of it

There is literally zero reason why they couldn’t have met, we all know it’s because “4 role quests scary” but it’s in universe explanation is so thin as to be non existent; it just comes across as bad storytelling at this point

Gaia was barely handled any better

If they hadn't been so intent on retreading last patch's story, the uh "Ryne and Zero are following you" section could've instead been in the Crystarium, with an optional talking spot next to Cylva and Unukalhai, if all conditions are met...

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Originally Posted by Tsiron

If they hadn't been so intent on retreading last patch's story, the uh "Ryne and Zero are following you" section could've instead been in the Crystarium, with an optional talking spot next to Cylva and Unukalhai, if all conditions are met...

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That would be quite possibly why we didn't get a "Ryne and Zero are following you" in the Crystarium.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

And do you know the last time we've had an entirely optional MSQ scene reliant on having done previous content? THIS PATCH, Gaia was the first time!

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No, the first time we had a scene like that in the MSQ was in 5.2. I kid you not, it was an optional scene with Cylva that you could only unlock by having played through the rolequestline up to that point.

Here, it's awesome: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTWha5GsHBg

I was so happy when I got that scene, it felt like the devs really cared to give us something special.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

And technically isn't even a new scene, just an extension of an existing one; I'm not even sure if it's technically possible for them to do an entirely conditional start-to-end cutscene, which is what you'd have to do to introduce Cylva during the first visit.

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It's ironic isn't it that they did exactly that already and with Cylva of all people! Although you could argue it's not technically start-to-end, because it branches off with your choice of dialogue. But if you can do cutscenes in sidequests that are optional, sure you can do it for the MSQ.

But I also want to wholesale dismiss the attitude of using perceived technical or other limitations as legitimate arguments to inform one's preferences.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

At this point they are actively making the content worse for people who do all the content to pander to people to only do the MSQ and it’s actually making the MSQ worse because of it

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Disagree with this entirely. I mean, to be fair, the "has only done the MSQ" is the default and the majority. Most people haven't done the void quests. So, by definition, any references to them or the raid stories is bonus material, not the default. But the content is not "worse" for having those bonus scenes. They could have just not covered them at all and kept the scenes the same regardless of content completion. They are actively making the game better for people who've done more content, by including those scenes/dialogue, if anything.

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Originally Posted by Eisi

No, the first time we had a scene like that in the MSQ was in 5.2. I kid you not, it was an optional scene with Cylva that you could only unlock by having played through the rolequestline up to that point.

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That scene isn't an example of what they did with Gaia's scene here. All five possible scenes there were equally controlled by which optional quests you had done, but there was only one version of any given scene so long as you had completed the prerequisites to have Glynard offer you the option at all.

Gaia's entrance is a different kind of variation altogether – having a scene stop halfway or continue further depending on your quest status.

That said, it still isn't the first use of that approach, which first (to my knowledge) came up in 6.0's "Bonds of Adamantite" sequence. I haven't thoroughly compared all the variations, but one of my alts was missing completion of the Four Lords and consequently the scene at the Confederate hideout didn't include Soroban arriving at the end.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

That scene isn't an example of what they did with Gaia's scene here. All five possible scenes there were equally controlled by which optional quests you had done, but there was only one version of any given scene so long as you had completed the prerequisites to have Glynard offer you the option at all.

Gaia's entrance is a different kind of variation altogether – having a scene stop halfway or continue further depending on your quest status.

That said, it still isn't the first use of that approach, which first (to my knowledge) came up in 6.0's "Bonds of Adamantite" sequence. I haven't thoroughly compared all the variations, but one of my alts was missing completion of the Four Lords and consequently the scene at the Confederate hideout didn't include Soroban arriving at the end.

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Thanks for the confirmation on that one; that whole 6.0 sequence is a wealth of conditionals and edge cases like that, so it's really hard to tell for sure what is and isn't 'the first time' they did things.

But the required situation for what this thread asks for, of putting in an entirely disconnected optional scene that isn't part of an extended cutscene that then influences later storytelling, is still completely uncharted. Because let's be honest, while having Cylva and Zero have a brief exchange of 'hellos' and then nothing further to the point where the rest of the storyline plays out the same is probably possible, the OP would be mad if that happened, too. What they want is for Cylva and Zero to meet in an optional, conditional scene, and then for the fact that they've met and know about each other to be relevant to the story as it unfolds from there, and frankly, I don't even know what questlines play out anything like that enough for me to be sure how they'd do it.

At best, that's a situation that'd call for several scenes afterwards to essentially have two different scripts based on 'does Zero know someone has a working theory on saving the Thirteenth, or is she figuring that out from first principles'. At worst, it may not be technically possible.

EDIT: I genuinely feel like the way things played out on this is the best they could've. It was never going to be satisfying, because it's just such a weird situation that a satisfying solution wasn't plausible, but the way it plays out now actually uses that lack of satisfaction; it's a missed connection, nobody knew they'd be worth introducing to each other until after we had the chance to, and now they're living too far away to easily connect on something they know they're both working on.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

Disagree with this entirely. I mean, to be fair, the "has only done the MSQ" is the default and the majority. Most people haven't done the void quests. So, by definition, any references to them or the raid stories is bonus material, not the default. But the content is not "worse" for having those bonus scenes. They could have just not covered them at all and kept the scenes the same regardless of content completion. They are actively making the game better for people who've done more content, by including those scenes/dialogue, if anything.

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Yes but including scenes with the voice questline when it so obviously fits in the location provides no real downsides for people who haven’t done them, but makes the story look stupid for those that have done them

All they need to do is put “we strongly recommend doing x quests before you continue doing the MSQ”, if people don’t want to do those then they may lose some context, in the current form side quest status is a death keel for anyone to ever again appear in the MSQ and it leads to situations like this, where the MSQ just looks stupid for no including them

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Originally Posted by Iscah

That scene isn't an example of what they did with Gaia's scene here. All five possible scenes there were equally controlled by which optional quests you had done, but there was only one version of any given scene so long as you had completed the prerequisites to have Glynard offer you the option at all.

Gaia's entrance is a different kind of variation altogether – having a scene stop halfway or continue further depending on your quest status.

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Can you clarify this? To me this means that they are both the same. The first example checks for the conditions to give you a choice (aka a cutscene-extension of your choosing). The second checks for the conditions to give you a cutscene-extension as well, just this time you don't choose it, but the technical background is exactly the same.

Here:

https://i.imgur.com/HgRd4gN.jpg

This is how I imagine it.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

But the required situation for what this thread asks for, of putting in an entirely disconnected optional scene that isn't part of an extended cutscene that then influences later storytelling, is still completely uncharted. Because let's be honest, while having Cylva and Zero have a brief exchange of 'hellos' and then nothing further to the point where the rest of the storyline plays out the same is probably possible, the OP would be mad if that happened, too.

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Yes of course :D why would they do that? They should write a nice little cutscene full of nostalgia and regret after which Cylva wants Zero to go meet the people of the First and swears they will meet again. I don't want them to spend an afternoon together, just a couple of minutes.

So just to clarify: they can have the rest of the storyline play out exactly the same (with maybe a sentence strewn in at the end like we have now with the dialogue option) and still have their meeting be more than a brief "hello, goodbye!". I don't think I'm being unreasonable.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

What they want is for Cylva and Zero to meet in an optional, conditional scene, and then for the fact that they've met and know about each other to be relevant to the story as it unfolds from there, and frankly, I don't even know what questlines play out anything like that enough for me to be sure how they'd do it.

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Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!! But they can easily make it tie back together in whatever story comes after, not in 6.5! That could be done as easily as when we meet Estinien again/for the first time at the end of ARR. So just like it is now, except we would have got the cutscene that I was so looking forward to, a cutscene that would have warmed my heart and excited me!

And if they were really daring, Cylva could have given her an heirloom or something! For example the sword she later gets in the transformation! Idk if that makes sense, but that could have been a gift from Cylva as well! Don't take this too serious, doesn't have to be something of that magnitude, but you know what I mean.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

At best, that's a situation that'd call for several scenes afterwards to essentially have two different scripts based on 'does Zero know someone has a working theory on saving the Thirteenth, or is she figuring that out from first principles'. At worst, it may not be technically possible.

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You can write the same scene to have different meaning if you had a prior experience. Like Hitchcock's adage about suspense where we can have a scene play out the same way with or without knowing there's a bomb under the table yet it changes the whole experience. That's suspense but it can work even while the characters know more! You can still have the cutscenes play out the same.

To give a FFXIV example let's say we met Esteem in Ultima Thule - technically possible even without having done the DRK questline because of Dynamis. But to have done the DRK questline before recontextualizes it and we know who Esteem represents.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

EDIT: I genuinely feel like the way things played out on this is the best they could've. It was never going to be satisfying, because it's just such a weird situation that a satisfying solution wasn't plausible, but the way it plays out now actually uses that lack of satisfaction; it's a missed connection, nobody knew they'd be worth introducing to each other until after we had the chance to, and now they're living too far away to easily connect on something they know they're both working on.

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Again, I knew it because Cylva told me she wanted to talk to Zero. So while in the First they could have met up. I was looking forward to it.

By the way Cleretic, this is off-topic, loved your Estinien video, you mentioned Ysayle in that, idk if you're thinking about making one about Ysayle in Heavensward and what a MESS it was, but I would love seeing that tbh ♥.

It is a bit of a missed opportunity, but I hope they get to interact in a future questline.