FFXIV has among the BEST gearing system in any MMO. It's extremely casual friendly and easy to understand to people new mmos. It doesn't have complex systems. This along with catching up in gear is also really easy so you can safely take a break and come back with easily accessible gear to get to jump back in the game. Knowing which stats to slot in is also easy to figure out and not very complicated. Everything about the gearing and stats in FFXIV is very straight forward and don't have to think too hard about it.
Raids also make it easier to gear if you're unlucky you get these items that you can then exchange for gear of the same raid. Ex battles do the same thing.
So as you can see, FFXIV is very much a game that respects your time. While balancing the fine line of not making it too GRINDY and also not making it so incredibly fast to where you just have to do the fight two times and you're done in regards to getting the books from raiding and the statues from ex battles.
For a long time there are people that just want it to be harder for zero reason other than to grind more along with trying to make the stat system more complicated. I should honestly say there are TWO versions of these people. Ones that want to make getting gear harder and grindy and ones that want to make it way way easier (For raids, to be specific).
I'll start with the people that want to make it easier than it is. These people are exclusively talking about raid gearing. As of right now it's already easier to get raid gear, made even easier since 6.4. However these people are still not satisfied, they want to remove any sort of replayability from this fights by making the book requirement so insanely low. This is honestly in direct contradiction of endwalker biggest complaints (lack of grinding) and these complaints even come by the same people wanting to make raid gearing even faster.
The thing with these people/raiders are not even for the betterment of the community and rather just for themselves so they can just gear their alts faster and that's really all their is to it. A majority of players don't want to gear this INSANELY fast and many players don't even play other jobs to even care for gearing alts. Lowering the book requirement just makes it so people that don't play alt jobs gives them even less incentive to run savage.
As for the tomestone grind. (Because this is also complained about) It is in place in order to incentivize players to run additional content such as dungeons. Lowering the requirements of tomestone gear makes you gear too fast and will make players no longer run other content because there is nothing to work towards. For non raiders, this is a majority of players carrot at the end of the stick and gearing progression. Tomestone gear and cost is important to keep people playing the game. Raiders just have to overall stop being so selfish and thinking about themselves. The limit put in place for tomegear is necessary to keep player retention.
Now the other side of the fence are the people that want to change the entire system. From the stats to the skills and wanting gearing to be more difficult. These people complain the stats for FFXIV are too boring. They don't like everything is crt,crt, crt. FFXIV does have relatively simple stats true but more complex and more different types of stats doesn't make it GOOD. What stats FFXIV have gets the job done.
Admittedly I do agree with them here in that crt stat is way too dominant that it's a priority over any stat other than certain melee jobs that have to hit a sks requirement such as samurai but this is where our agreement ends.
These people want gearing to be more GRINDY with ideas such as making gear have randomized stats which encourages grinding. This is a terrible idea because it'll make it 100x harder to get bis and not just that, it'll frustrate players as well. Interestingly enough for the people that don't know, FFXIV DID have a system like this but it was for the classic diadem. I remember when I was a kid I was here for hours trying to get the best stats.
I can't imagine this being the main system for getting gear, this will basically kill the game and/or the raid scene. Part of the reason FFXIV raids are accessable is on top of jobs being friendly and the 2min buff/burst, it's the gearing system being easy to get to have enough dps and HP to hop in.
This also goes beyond just gearing, they take issues with stats as I said. They complain FFXIV stats are too boring so they suggest things such as; Block rate%, Parry Rate%, Double Strike%, Dodge Rate% and more. These things not only would basically break the game but also make stats too complicated. Because though crt is a dominant stat, at least you don't have to think so hard in what stat is the best.
If you start adding extra stats it'll just confuse the player and make picking stats more annoying and also make people fight as more choices makes people want to pick fun stats instead of optimal stats causing frictions in raid.
I also hear things like skill trees which...I think we ALL know why that would be silly and unneeded.
The gearing and stat system in FFXIV is basically perfect, it respects your time. It gives you the opportunity to join in raid very quickly, it's easy to understand and not complicated at all making it very easy for beginners to understand. We need to stop suggesting making it more difficult and grindy. Hardcore Grinding will not fix your bordem. This along with stop asking to lower the book requirement for raiding and tomestone cost for gear. Not everybody plays alts and savage needs some sort of incentive to do it more than twice, asking to lower the requirement basically makes it so the raid community is done with savage in 4 weeks or less. CBU3 found the perfect balance of grind, stop trying to destroy that.
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09-23-2023, 09:41 PMThrenerasThe gearing\stat system is good, we need to stop asking to make it more complicated
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09-24-2023, 12:33 AMGoatOfWar
''Respects your time''
What time? You get it in a few minutes and proceed to play other games because there's nothing left to do. -
09-24-2023, 12:39 AMZephyrMenodora
I will just say I am glad you won't get screwed by RNG and have a specific item simply not drop for 7 months like I experienced in another MMO.
On the flip side, gear here is all boring stat sticks. I wish they had special procs for top tier raid gear or special effects that make them worth doing over 5 more iLvl. -
09-24-2023, 12:54 AMIvtrix
I don’t understand why it takes them so long to unlock the loot restrictions on savage gear. It comes way too late. It should unlock upon the release of the next patch. Example being the 6.4 tier won’t unlock until sometime in 6.55, why??? Savage gear should be unlocked when 6.5 hits.
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09-24-2023, 01:08 AMRanaku
PF Savage raiding is the antithesis to respecting your time. And that is how most raiders play the game.
The best fix for that would be to make loot rules like with the normal raids. Get one piece a week and you are able to do the savage raid multiple times and aren't locked out of loot for the entire week if you haven't gotten any yet.
Reason why SE won't implement that easy fix? People would be done with raiding and wouldn't keep suffering for months to keep the game alive. Raiders atm get screwed by XIV big time just so they keep the raiding scene alive, it just costs your fun and soul nothing more. -
09-24-2023, 01:32 AMDrWho2010
"I want stuff faster"
"I want to be done with raiding"
"I want unlock sooner"
Multiply this by the amount of people raiding at any various skill level and you will see an exodus of gamers.
Give them a reason to leave sooner and they will.
The devs know what they are doing to keep people around for longer. Yes they want to "respect your time" and say "go play other stuff if you want".
BUT they also don't want to artificially give people reasons to NOT stick around longer either if they want BiS savage gear pieces.
This argument has been around for as long as raiding in this game has been around for. It was worse before now before the books/token system came in. -
09-24-2023, 01:37 AMRanakuIt's not about getting stuff faster, it is about raid loot being about how much luck you have. It is totally rng aside of the book you have to collect for months and if you want to gear a second job then buckle up fella you will have to grind a couple months more.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrWho2010
So how is it fair and fun that one player can literally win theoretically all the drops from a raid and can be done with BIS in a week or two and someone else needs to farm for months just to get his first job geared?
And i don't even raid lol, i just see all my friends getting no loot and tbh i feel their pain. I have no horse in the race but maybe that makes my opinion of the crooked system SE has forced upon us a bit more objective i guess? -
09-24-2023, 02:18 AMDrWho2010
if someone is getting all the loot in an encounter then RNGesus just happened to be with them. sucks for everyone else, but that's what you risk when you pug with no pre-determined loot rules beforehand.
You want "fairness", raid in a static that distros loot in a specific way that everyone else agrees with. I pugged 90% of my 16 P8S clears in PF. How many things did I naturally win? Three. the rest was books. Did that suck? You bet it did. Did I get all mad about it and rush to the forums to complain? No. Because that's just the way an RNG system works. I have luck in other systems in the game.
NA/EU is inherently selfish as opposed to JP raiding (with the loot left to right rule). That's just the way the cookie crumbles man. -
09-24-2023, 02:40 AMhobostew
just remove stats on gear lol 8)
/beesknees -
09-24-2023, 02:41 AMRanakuYou make it sound like a static is the cure for that problem but it really isn't, with loot distribution after what is the most helpful with upcoming raids dds will always get the priority over tanks and healers?Quote:
Originally Posted by DrWho2010
And how is that fun and fair when you are in week 4 with your static and you didn't got one piece of loot as a tank?
The raid system we have is build around making some players suffer and for what? So that they play longer and suffer even more? Is that really the meaning of having fun in the game? -
09-24-2023, 02:42 AMOgruMogru
Let people repeat savage fights to get a chance on loot. Make it work like the 24 mans - you get your weekly token on clearing but then you're free to re-run the fights until you get a piece of loot. One piece of loot per week from each fight. Would encourage people to be in PF more and it would help with how cagey people get over drops.
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09-24-2023, 02:53 AMMuraBoyI totally agree with you. In this game you can play as any class with only 1 character, but you can't gear up with too many jobs for savage or ultimate lmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by Ivtrix
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09-24-2023, 03:31 AMDrWho2010Don't like what a static does for loot rules? MAKE YOUR OWN WITH YOUR OWN RULES. That's the beauty of agreement beforehand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranaku
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09-24-2023, 03:32 AMDrWho2010It would just lead to bloating of PF listings for merc runs most likely.Quote:
Originally Posted by OgruMogru
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09-24-2023, 04:32 AMMostly_Raxus
Why do i feel like yall want a single player game you play once and not a mmo? you know 16 is just a ps5 purchase away (lul)
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09-24-2023, 04:33 AMKitingGenbu
"This also goes beyond just gearing, they take issues with stats as I said. They complain FFXIV stats are too boring so they suggest things such as; Block rate%, Parry Rate%, Double Strike%, Dodge Rate% and more. These things not only would basically break the game but also make stats too complicated. Because though crt is a dominant stat, at least you don't have to think so hard in what stat is the best."
So each mmorpg that has those 'extra stats' you eluded to are 'broken' right....? -
09-24-2023, 04:42 AMAtelier-BagurTo be honest, thats the very definition of "respecting your time".Quote:
Originally Posted by GoatOfWar
However, I would add into the argument that not only is the game's gearing terribly designed but they have inadvertenly killed their other content systems because of the short lived gear relevance in this game where unless you want to do an Ultimate or Criterion (which lets face it, nobody is going to do em because the rewards suck ass) you realistically shouldnt give two darns about having BiS because 90% of the endgame content doesnt require it. Its not fulfilling progression.
Some people have pointed this solution out but the fact that every BiS is locked behind Savage raids which consist of 4 fights and not have that loot distributed amongst the other content systems like say, Alliance Raids, Extremes and Criterion or even Unreals is why people feel there's no content.
The content is there! Its just that whats actually truly relevant has always been only the Savage raids which is the source of frustration towards why FFXIV's endgame is so gosh darn terrible imo. They need to spread the loot around all the different types of content to better incentivize players to participate those activities that we've been getting per EW patch. And if people are complaining that some BiS is being gated behind a fight or content they dont want to do then Im sorry but tough luck?
Its time for the devs to stop putting all of their eggs in the Savage Raid basket I feel. -
09-24-2023, 04:51 AMMostly_Raxuswell in alot of MMOs those "extra stats" are a derivatives of your basic stats, like for instance say block scaling off crit. granted im ok with this, it makes for more meaningful stat engagement than "Crit=win>DH=DET>SKS/SPS=to cap" would be nice to build as a block tank or a leech tank, diversity in builds is something this game severely lacks, granted the fault is that we have 3 gear options for each slot per raid tier crafted/raid/vendorQuote:
Originally Posted by KitingGenbu
its also very easy to over clutter stats, crap sks break point window need a sim already to break down and then if you look at the balance we generally have 3 different soft caps. we already dont know what our stats are till a third party breaks ToS and sims it and post it to yet another 3rd party.
not saying i agree with their stance on addons and 3rd party, but they themselves have to at least stand behind it. they cant keep giving us further reasons to need it if they will ban us for using it.
the game is kinda in a situation where they are screwed either direction they choose to go in, and without a future vision and willingness to grow and expand, shiny new graphics wont be enough. -
09-24-2023, 04:59 AMTurtledeluxe
What I wonder is how much people would complain about stats and gear being boring if there was more to do with BiS gear or if it had an actual impact on more than savage and ultimate content. As others have alluded to it feels like the game needs such a large overhaul to make a gear change feasible that it isn't even worth messing with.
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09-24-2023, 05:37 AMDiaDeem
I'm sorry OP, but Lalas need to be this tall to hop on the ride...
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09-24-2023, 05:40 AMOizen
I'd just make materia more interesting than melding Critical Hit and Critical Hit 2
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09-24-2023, 06:47 AMRaikai
The stat system... it's just there - It works but that's about it. It feels uninspired and I hardly consider it a good standard for stat system in a game.
They're really only meaningful for high end players, the ones very likely to min/max that kind of thing, so why not give that some form of complexity?
Direct Hit is, like above poster said, just 'Critical Hit II'. That stat could just get the axe if they find something more interesting to add.
Tenacity is just a sprout trap. The description of the stat surely makes it desirable... until you discover (or someone yell at you) how bad it is compared to others. This also deserves a big overhaul.
Piety's binary aspect is fine in theory, but I'd rather add something else to it so it wouldn't be such a waste as you prog fights and need less GCD healing. The nature of this stat makes melding more expensive for healers than for everybody else.
SpS and SkS should just be merged into speed - there's no complexity reasons behind those being separate. Speed is the most interesting stat of them all because it's the only one who can actually change a job's gameplay. A shame that is a horrible meld for most of the jobs because of the 2min meta.
On the non-technical aspect of the matter, I wish the melding system had a better UI. From a sprout's perspective, knowing about what can be melded and the usability of the menus themselves could really have some attention. From a veteran's perspective it could just be QoL. -
09-24-2023, 07:04 AMShurrikhan
I'd be fine even with just 3 secondary stats (Critical Hit, Determination, Speed)... if they actually impacted gameplay and were pretty tightly balanced.
Critical Hit affects gameplay on at most one job, Monk. For all other jobs, the only gameplay-affecting stat is the Skill/Spell speed, but that stat is objectively the worst past a low threshold for achieving a more reliable rotational loop, with decently noticeable penalties outside of 2-4 jobs (MNK, BLM > SAM).
And because Critical Hit increases not just Critical Hit Chance but also Critical Hit Bonus, Determination feels utterly unnoticeable, all while Crit's would-be greater effects on gameplay (if we still had more crit procs) are siphoned off towards quadratic gains and towards confounding relative potencies.
And then there's a final, even more obvious issue: Even when focusing exclusively on a particular secondary stat, we can't manage more than a 10% impact (10% expected damage from crits, 10% more Haste, etc.).
Obvious satire OP aside...- No, the stat system is not good. Fixing said stat system doesn't require it to be more complicated, but it does at least require it to have some actual choice and polish. There's little advantage to making players "think hard", since they'll just bypass such requirements to check a guide or calculator anyways, but it would be lucrative to give them some influence over their gameplay.
- The gearing system is likewise not great, not because it lacks grind potential, but because of whom/what it requires that grind of, often to the point of pretty directly contradicting the idea of the "all jobs on one character" selling point of XIV.
OTPs, especially if a directly-contributing DD like SAM or BLM, get their BiS in a month or so and are done, with luck being the biggest variable (especially outside of Master Looter statics). And the only system in place to keep them around after that? Gearing up other jobs -- something wholly irrelevant to them.
- No, the stat system is not good. Fixing said stat system doesn't require it to be more complicated, but it does at least require it to have some actual choice and polish. There's little advantage to making players "think hard", since they'll just bypass such requirements to check a guide or calculator anyways, but it would be lucrative to give them some influence over their gameplay.
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09-24-2023, 07:32 AMSupersnow845
They need to redo piety, piety is a stat that punishes healers with lower damage for no real benefit since the healers are overflowing with MP these days
You know the stat is a mess when people will wear weaker ilvl gear to avoid having piety as a sub stat because it’s the only stat that does absolutely nothing for your damage -
09-24-2023, 09:52 AMRenathrasGreetings, impersonator.Quote:
Originally Posted by Threneras
While I agree FFXIV's gear system has nice things about it, it's not at all perfect. It's pretty boring (which isn't terrible, but isn't great), the materia "crit meta" is awful and crowds out any actual choices like most speed builds, etc. Savage exclusive gear with no non-Savage equivalent is annoying. It's not at all fast, especially if you're trying to gear more than one role. For a casual player (aside: While we've had a detour here with the Hilde weapons, this isn't NORMALLY the case) does not have a way to get a high end weapon fast at all. It takes 7 weeks of running the latest normal 4th boss before you're even allowed to get it, or running Extremes, which are midcore or even (of late) hardcore content what with all the body checks, and they're lower ilevel anyway. Relic weapons are an option, but often don't start until an expansion is half-over, have an ilevel penalty vs tome/Savage weapons until the last patch of the expansion (when it effectively no longer matters to casual players who aren't using them for Ultimates), and aren't quick unless you nolife them (and I say this as someone who DOES nolife at least my first one of each expansion).
My rule is always options.
There should be a grindy option, there should be a difficult content option, and there should be a catch-all option for anyone else. Right now, we lack the latter, or its gated heavily behind tome limits. Savage is really the only somewhat reliable way to gear quickly at all, and the lockout process makes it very multi-Job/role unfriendly. That is, you'd be better having a separate character to run a different role because it wouldn't be limited by the lockouts. So it's not even great to Savage raiders even.
And the problem with the grindy options - love Eureka and Bozja gear - is that that gear, too, until they very last stage (maybe?) has an ilevel penalty as well. It's only "best" when specifically in those zones, when, imo, it should be comparable to raid gear. You're trading effort for time, so the end result should be similar.
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No, gearing in FFXIV is not the best thing right now, and it is not perfect, and it should be more complicated.
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EDIT:
Interesting.
Both my post and someone else's post asking someone to put on the record that they aren't me were deleted.
It's almost like someone able to delete posts wants people to think that someone else seemingly impersonating me is me and doesn't want people to see the posts where I've said it isn't. Every post I've said it isn't me, to date, has been deleted.
I have no idea who's deleting them, and I'm not naming any names in this post nor violating any forum rules. I'm just going on the record, so no one in the future can say I never did, that it isn't me, it's someone else. -
09-24-2023, 01:56 PMShurrikhanI think I agree with this on the whole.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
On a related note, though, I'm also curious about your take on how you'd like these different content forms to interact.
First, a... tangential question, though:
At present, we're forced to progress the gear of only a single gear class (Fending, Healing, Maiming, Scouting, etc.) at a time to be fully competitive on the job(s) therein. If I want to main NIN and aim for its gear, for instance, rising ilvl expectations per week mean I get increasingly stuck on/with just NIN until I reach BiS or so outstrip the expectations of the parties I'm joining anyways.
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Let us say for a moment we like the time it takes for an individual job to reach BiS, but don't really like that players are forced to focus on a single gear class regardless of how much time they have and would be willing to spend gearing other jobs.
In that case, we'd essentially need a way for content to have a repeatable/grindable aspect by which to duplicate gains to one's max-ilvl (at/per-week-since-tier-release) onto other jobs.
Would something like that goal and that approach seem reasonable to you?
For instance, we might allow pieces for a given slot (chest, gloves, boots, etc.) that one has purchased with <Weekly-Capped Endgame Tomestones> to then be purchasable with <Uncapped Endgame Tomestones> thereafter, while Savage could drop items (apart/independent from the chest limit) that could be used to make any piece you desire for a slot you've already acquired a piece for from that Savage tier (akin, say, to Extreme Totems, with challenges awarding a bonus one, at maybe 8 for a chest/legs, 10 for a weapon, 4 for gloves/helm/boots, 2 for an accessory, etc.).
If so (or if something similar in goal or procedure would do)... a follow-up question:
Should Exploratory Missions (and/or some category into which EMs would fall among other content) be a third means (content "pillar") by which to increase one's maximum item level for a given week since each tier/"season" drops, such that even raiders would be expected to do it?
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Or, should it only be a means of catching up? Of gearing alts after having already acquired max ilvl increases for a given main through Savage and Weekly Tomes?
Or, heck, should every means of maximum-(per-week-into-the-season-)item-level increase compete, as to maximally "respect" players' time?
In that case... Raiders wouldn't have to farm tomes except to gear alts. Those who dislike raids wouldn't feel enticed to do them. Exploratory Mission grinders could just do their own thing entirely and still cross back over to raids and Criterion Dungeons, etc., as they like since they're gear would be equally rewarding... but without needing to do any of that other content for maximum advantage in their content of choice.
Would such be better for the game? For the average player's enjoyment of it? Neither?