Garlean attacks aren't magic, so what are they?

According to the lore, Garleans can't use magic (and I believe they can't even manipulate aether, though I could be mistaken on that), but Garlean bosses use a variety of attacks that I have trouble interpreting as anything but magic.

For example, Gaius creates "clones" of himself that need to be attacked and defeated, suggesting that they are actual physical manifestations of some sort.

In addition, many Garlean bosses create X-slashes in the air that hover in a static position for a variable amount of seconds before before shooting forward.

Are there lore explanations for these kinds of attacks?

Artificial magic-like effects created using ceruleum as fuel. Pretty much everything they do is technological in origin.

Oh, and you're correct about them not being able to manipulate aether. There are some short-term workarounds, like embedding crystals in their own flesh, but pretty much every avenue they could come up with that didn't involve magitek is excessively dangerous for them to attempt. Even the Resonant procedure poses an incredible danger to them, not that they even have access to the information on it anymore. There's a line in one of the Encyclopedia Eorzeas implying a small number of them might have some capability with aether, but it isn't really touched on anywhere else. The closest we get to Garleans directly wielding aether is RPR, but it too requires an intermediary and comes with a hefty price.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Artificial magic-like effects created using ceruleum as fuel. Pretty much everything they do is technological in origin.

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I guess I had thought that things like Magitek were supposed to be like real-world technology, in that they were mechanical and obeyed physical laws. But from what you're saying, it sounds like Garleans can somehow use technology to create something that looks like magic and acts like magic, yet technically isn't magic? Am I getting that right? If so, is there any lore that explains that further? My brain is having trouble wrapping itself around pseudo-magic that can be birthed from technology (presuming that we're outside of the space of really advanced sci-fi stuff like nanomachines).

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

I guess I had thought that things like Magitek were supposed to be like real-world technology, in that they were mechanical and obeyed physical laws. But from what you're saying, it sounds like Garleans can somehow use technology to create something that looks like magic and acts like magic, yet technically isn't magic? Am I getting that right? If so, is there any lore that explains that further? My brain is having trouble wrapping itself around pseudo-magic that can be birthed from technology (presuming that we're outside of the space of really advanced sci-fi stuff like nanomachines).

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Ceruleum and lifestream/aether share many of the same properties. You might even say it's like a hyper-condensed form of it risen to the planet's crust. Magical crude oil, in other words. The Garleans started out just using it as a source of fire and heat, that is until Solus Galvus (i.e. Emet-Selch) pulled up to show them how varied and potent its applications could truly be. They did have magitek of a sort beforehand, but it wasn't anywhere remotely close to as powerful, reliable, or versatile as what we see them using in the game. In effect, the Garleans take a natural substance with aether-like properties, refine it further, and use it to produce phenomena that would otherwise have been impossible for them to replicate.

There's a catch. Stuff is crazy volatile. Unrefined ceruleum vaporizes almost immediately on contact with open air. Refined ceruleum... well, that's how Midgardsormr died. >_>

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

There's a line in one of the Encyclopedia Eorzeas implying a small number of them might have some capability with aether, but it isn't really touched on anywhere else. The closest we get to Garleans directly wielding aether is RPR, but it too requires an intermediary and comes with a hefty price.

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The text from the Encyclopedia Eorzea says:

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Garleans have little inborn ability to manipulate their body's aether, however, and thus the arcane arts have ever eluded all but a few.

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Combined with the fact that everything else in the game says Garleans can't manipulate aether at all, I took this entry to mean "Garleans have little ability to manipulate aether, so except for a few scientists who had to study aether and magic in order to replicate its effects, most Garleans have no knowledge of it". This makes sense too after we get to Garlemald and the civilians seemed to be frightened or at least concerned about magic.

This contrasts with everyone else, who seem to use aether every day and "arcane arts" are something that people can learn fairly easily if they have the capability.

Pretty much every 'magic-like' effect we see Garleans pull are technology, most often apparently from augmented weaponry or armor. Basically, they're going in as Iron Man and hoping that holds up.

Out of these, the biggest ask--but also the biggest tell--is Gaius. It's not an impossible ask, he'd just have to have one hell of a setup hidden away somewhere in the Praetorium to justify a fight like that. However, later on in Shadowbringers we see him with confirmably little technology through armor (and arena setup), showing that everything he uses in those cutscenes are entirely powered by the one piece of tech he confirmably does have, the Garlean gunblade. (Well, and the bullets.)

There's probably still an element of skill and technique there; you can't just give any Joe bas RandomGarlean Gaius' gunblade and have them pull off the stuff he does. But the 'magic-y' stuff in terms of raw ability to expel those blasts? That's in their tech.


The one other exception is Zenos, who over time showcases four different things to consider about how Garleans like him can stunt:

1. He has multiple magic katanas. That's where most of his weird abilities in Stormblood's fights come from.
2. He's physically just VERY strong, which is an innate Garlean thing; basically, their aether manipulation is tuned inwards to make them capable of great physical feats, which sounds good, but mostly doesn't manifest as anything that useful. It combined with the magic katanas to mean Zenos could be more than a match for us.
3. Remember the Reapers? Yeah, that's an old Garlean way to keep pace. It's not popular anymore, since magitek's just a much safer way to do it, but Zenos doesn't care about safety concerns.
4. Finally, Zenos himself gets to be a Very Special Boy, between both the Resonance he gets late in Stormblood and the indistinct magical abilities Elidibus unlocks in his body (that Zenos proceeded to never use). Those aren't exactly normal tricks for Garleans, but they could theoretically say things about them... if Zenos ever said anything to explain either of them particularly well. Sadly, he does not.

Keep in mind their usage of ceruleum through magitek (personal magitek armour and weapons) do replicate magical abilities. It's how Regula was able to "enkindle" a ceruleum tiger familiar (the spell name is literally "Enkindle"). He presumably summoned it in a similar way arcanists summon carbuncles or summoners their egi (Enkindle use to be an arcanist/summoner spell before the revamp). Zenos magic swords are also bathed in ceruleum while in his special golf club scabbard, which allows him to use their powers.

Basically magitek isn't just technology powered by magic, although it is that at times (mostly with machina) but also technology that imitates and performs magic.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

The one other exception is Zenos, who over time showcases four different things to consider about how Garleans like him can stunt

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I always thought (and this might be made-up lore, I don't remember) that just like how Zenos got the Resonance in Stormblood, he could also have been subjected to a number of other body-enhancing procedures, possibly conducted by the same scientist, that gave him all those abilities with the Katanas and also what made him so strong.

In particular, in 4.5 when Hien is defeated by Elidibus/Zenos he says "Magic? With a Garlean body? That's hardly fair" makes me think that Zenos is indeed capable of using magics regardless of the weapons. You could say that's Elidibus doing all the magic, but when we fight him we see that the fight is relatively similar to the Stormblood ones where Elidibus wasn't in his body.

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Originally Posted by Cassar

I always thought (and this might be made-up lore, I don't remember) that just like how Zenos got the Resonance in Stormblood, he could also have been subjected to a number of other body-enhancing procedures, possibly conducted by the same scientist, that gave him all those abilities with the Katanas and also what made him so strong.

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There are a few places where the lore implies that Emet-Selch did some manner of aetherical manipulation on his Garlean heirs, and as such my interpretation has been that that's why Zenos is as strong as he is.

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Originally Posted by Cassar

In particular, in 4.5 when Hien is defeated by Elidibus/Zenos he says "Magic? With a Garlean body? That's hardly fair" makes me think that Zenos is indeed capable of using magics regardless of the weapons. You could say that's Elidibus doing all the magic, but when we fight him we see that the fight is relatively similar to the Stormblood ones where Elidibus wasn't in his body.

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Elidibus can use magic regardless of the body he's in, just the same as Emet-Selch. Remember that before Endwalker, Emet-Selch is always in a Garlean body, and that doesn't stop him from being the world's most powerful mage. I don't remember if Zenos ever actually uses magic, but he's not able to use magic before he "dies"; so if he does use magic after that, my assumption would be that it's something he picks up one he becomes "an Ascian in everything but name".

Well from Zenos's short story he definitely wasn't able to use magic pre-resonant as he needed to have a sliver of wind crystal in his palm inorder to do the technique his weapons teacher kept on whipping his butt with. Who knows what a post resonant, post primal mounting, body hopping ect opened up for him on the ability to manipulate aether.

I know that in our first encounter with Zenos he was capable of doing moves such as Concentrativity, which certainly looks like magic to me, but he also had access to Thunderous Force, Tempestuous Force, etc. You're saying he used crystals for those? I still think he must've had some sort of magic power, possibly from the supposed body-enhanced procedures I meant in my previous post or, as Lilimo suggested, maybe it was Emet's doing.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Elidibus can use magic regardless of the body he's in, just the same as Emet-Selch. Remember that before Endwalker, Emet-Selch is always in a Garlean body, and that doesn't stop him from being the world's most powerful mage.

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Oh yeah, I know about Elidibus being able to use magic regardless. What I meant is that our fight against Zenos in 4.5 was similar to our first encounter with him, which led me to believe that the magic Hien was referring to was the same that we witnessed in the first encounter.

I'll read Zenos' short story again to see if there's anything I missed.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Elidibus can use magic regardless of the body he's in, just the same as Emet-Selch. Remember that before Endwalker, Emet-Selch is always in a Garlean body, and that doesn't stop him from being the world's most powerful mage. I don't remember if Zenos ever actually uses magic, but he's not able to use magic before he "dies"; so if he does use magic after that, my assumption would be that it's something he picks up one he becomes "an Ascian in everything but name".

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Mastery of Resonance gave Zenos access to some very Ascian-like abilities which were almost 100% definitely a sort of magic. He never demonstrates "conventional" magic, like say casting spells, but he also wasn't trained as a mage. His applications of aether were always far more direct. Many of these abilities did not make a return in Endwalker for unknown reasons.

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Originally Posted by Cassar

I know that in our first encounter with Zenos he was capable of doing moves such as Concentrativity, which certainly looks like magic to me, but he also had access to Thunderous Force, Tempestuous Force, etc. You're saying he used crystals for those? I still think he must've had some sort of magic power, possibly from the supposed body-enhanced procedures I meant in my previous post or, as Lilimo suggested, maybe it was Emet's doing.

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Not crystals. Those swords were themselves enchanted, and he most likely used Garlean technology to further augment their capabilities/his techniques.

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Originally Posted by Cassar

Oh yeah, I know about Elidibus being able to use magic regardless. What I meant is that our fight against Zenos in 4.5 was similar to our first encounter with him, which led me to believe that the magic Hien was referring to was the same that we witnessed in the first encounter.

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Hien states, and I quote,
"Magic? With a Garlean body? That's hardly fair..."

This is said in response to Elidibus doing something blatantly magical without calling upon the unique properties of Zenos's arsenal. He emits a shockwave that immediately defeats those assembled to face him. Prior to that he'd been utilizing other blatantly magical skills, also without utilizing the weapons' enchantments. He started out using Zenos's skills, but after a while he was forced to start mixing in magic.

https://youtu.be/_yvCSDrAWCw?t=189

Here's a YouTube video for reference. You can see here Hien reacts rather vocally upon first seeing Elidibus start pulling out the stops. While he did involve one of the swords here, that was not one of Zenos's techniques. It's also distinctly different from the enchantment we know to be on that particular weapon. You can see other, more blatant examples of outright magic both during the fight and in the following cutscene.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Mastery of Resonance gave Zenos access to some very Ascian-like abilities which were almost 100% definitely a sort of magic. He never demonstrates "conventional" magic, like say casting spells, but he also wasn't trained as a mage. His applications of aether were always far more direct. Many of these abilities did not make a return in Endwalker for unknown reasons.



Not crystals. Those swords were themselves enchanted, and he most likely used Garlean technology to further augment their capabilities/his techniques.



Hien states, and I quote,
"Magic? With a Garlean body? That's hardly fair..."

This is said in response to Elidibus doing something blatantly magical without calling upon the unique properties of Zenos's arsenal. He emits a shockwave that immediately defeats those assembled to face him. Prior to that he'd been utilizing other blatantly magical skills, also without utilizing the weapons' enchantments. He started out using Zenos's skills, but after a while he was forced to start mixing in magic.

https://youtu.be/_yvCSDrAWCw?t=189

Here's a YouTube video for reference. You can see here Hien reacts rather vocally upon first seeing Elidibus start pulling out the stops. While he did involve one of the swords here, that was not one of Zenos's techniques. It's also distinctly different from the enchantment we know to be on that particular weapon. You can see other, more blatant examples of outright magic both during the fight and in the following cutscene.

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The resonance gives one the ability to manipulate aether if they could not do so already. Zenos says this himself after Fordola under goes the procedure. I'm gonna paraphrase here "What you have been given is far more than simply wielding magicks." The lore for the second boss in the lvl 68 is that he underwent a prototype of the resonance and it was successful in granting that garlean the ability to cast magic. It also broke his mind and drove him insane. Zenos can just cast magic. He just doesn't most of the time for all we know

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

The resonance gives one the ability to manipulate aether if they could not do so already. Zenos says this himself after Fordola under goes the procedure. I'm gonna paraphrase here "What you have been given is far more than simply wielding magicks." The lore for the second boss in the lvl 68 is that he underwent a prototype of the resonance and it was successful in granting that garlean the ability to cast magic. It also broke his mind and drove him insane. Zenos can just cast magic. He just doesn't most of the time for all we know

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I believe you are misunderstanding. What I said was he never demonstrates "conventional" magic like casting spells, not that he can't use any form of magic. Everything we see HIM do is a far more direct application of aether. Conventional spellcasting is a learned skill. We are never to my knowledge shown Zenos casting spells, but we are shown him using blatant magic. There is a difference.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

I believe you are misunderstanding. What I said was he never demonstrates "conventional" magic like casting spells, not that he can't use any form of magic. Everything we see HIM do is a far more direct application of aether. Conventional spellcasting is a learned skill. We are never to my knowledge shown Zenos casting spells, but we are shown him using blatant magic. There is a difference.

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In the final fight he casts Shinryu's abilities. That's an example of spell casting. Were you looking for something like it showing him learning to cast a spell. He probably just taught himself.