The new Nomura?

Let's keep it down to earth, let's talk that real ish; YoshiP hasn't done anything great since heavensward (maybe stormblood).

Is he just riding his initial success the same way Nomura rode his?
FFXVI being the latest victim of his game design philosophy

We gave him a chance to finally make a good mainline FF game where he didn't "Reborn" someone else's game and he blew it.

Has dawntrail showed you something that which gives you faith in his skill as a producer and director?

Personally I'd give the reigns to Banri Oda; a real LORE head who'd be focused on a deeper and richer narrative as a director. As for producer, I don't trust anyone in square enix, maybe Nier's producer, forget his name.

But what do you think? Have we given Yoship too many passes?

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

Have we given Yoship too many passes?

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Yes.

/10char

At least when people buy a game produced by Nomura, they already know the kind of insanity they're getting into.
Yoshi-P seems to have no real vision beyond catering to the lowest common denominator and chasing AAA trends.
While it wasn't scrictly a bad game, FFXVI dampened my enthusiasm for any future CBU3 product.

Possibly, although I prefer to wait until we know more about DawnTrail before I form any kind of opinion.

Huh, my understanding was by all accounts FFXVI was being considered an overwhellming success, and that any concerns about sales targets was simply because of PS5 availability issues still lingering and nothing to do with the quality of the game itself.

Also, Yoshi is not the new Nomura, he scrapped belts. ;)

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Huh, my understanding was by all accounts FFXVI was being considered an overwhellming success, and that any concerns about sales targets was simply because of PS5 availability issues still lingering and nothing to do with the quality of the game itself.

Also, Yoshi is not the new Nomura, he scrapped belts. ;)

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Apologies for my ignorance.... but "belts"? Not familiar with this reference.

Nomura almost made something great in VS (and I'd put XV itself WAY ahead of XVI). He has some inspired ideas. I'm not sure the same could be said for Yoshi P: he seems like a genuinely nice guy, but there's more perspiration than inspiration in his work.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

Apologies for my ignorance.... but "belts"? Not familiar with this reference.

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It's an old meme - Tetsuya Nomura likes to design characters with lots of belts (along with black leather and zippers), sometimes excessively so (Lulu from FFX springs to mind, but also Squall from FFVIII), suggesting Nomura has a thing for them. Yoshi though removed equippable belts from FFXIV back when EW lauched, so... it's a little injoke to an old meme. ;)

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Huh, my understanding was by all accounts FFXVI was being considered an overwhellming success, and that any concerns about sales targets was simply because of PS5 availability issues still lingering and nothing to do with the quality of the game itself.

Also, Yoshi is not the new Nomura, he scrapped belts. ;)

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Sales in Japan are so far the worst of the entire mainline series (most of which weren't multiplatform entries), and it was beaten by Pikmin 4 in a single week.
Square Enix claimed the sales were strong after one week, but it barely sold any copy since. It seems the game hasn't convinced anyone who didn't already buy it day one.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

It's an old meme - Tetsuya Nomura likes to design characters with lots of belts (along with black leather and zippers), sometimes excessively so (Lulu from FFX springs to mind, but also Squall from FFVIII), suggesting Nomura has a thing for them. Yoshi though removed equippable belts from FFXIV back when EW lauched, so... it's a little injoke to an old meme. ;)

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Ahh - thank you for explaining! :)

As much as I love Banri Oda, I don't think he has directing experience to lead an entire development team (unless he personally ever had the interest to direct then hey I'm all for it).

The only reason why Yoshida got the job for FFXIV was because of how successful he was in directing Dragon Quext X which is SE's other big MMO, but only in Japan

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

Apologies for my ignorance.... but "belts"? Not familiar with this reference.

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Nomura has a reputation of using an obscene amount of belts on his designs (see Lulu from 10 for an example)

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

It's an old meme - Tetsuya Nomura likes to design characters with lots of belts (along with black leather and zippers), sometimes excessively so (Lulu from FFX springs to mind, but also Squall from FFVIII), suggesting Nomura has a thing for them. Yoshi though removed equippable belts from FFXIV back when EW lauched, so... it's a little injoke to an old meme. ;)

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

Nomura has a reputation of using an obscene amount of belts on his designs (see Lulu from 10 for an example)

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I just Googled this Lulu character... and I can see what you mean now! In fact it looks as if her 'skirt' isn't one - it's a collection of belts!

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

FFXVI was being considered an overwhellming success

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It's not even 90 on Metacritic.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

Banri Oda

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Good one, I actually laughed. Thanks for the funny post.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

It seems the game hasn't convinced anyone who didn't already bought it day one.

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And it's the direct opposite of BG3. People played FF16 and mention all the issues: its simplicity, linearity, lack of RPG elements, atrocious action gameplay, complete void of difficulty, tedious filler quests, etc. Meanwhile BG3 keeps attracting more and more players. Funny because I literally hear more talk about BG3 than FF16 ever got in-game.

The only reason it's even above 80 is because of Soken's music, the stunning primal fights, the great early game story with a complex political narrative (that they basically wasted after Titan) and CBU3 fanboyism.

I would say we have had good things, but they haven't quite hit the nail on the head. I mean, sure exploratory content was great, but the reality is this particular piece of content started initially in Heavensward with Diadem and had to be scrapped... Not once, but twice before we got something a little more flushed out with Eureka, and even then, personally, I don't think it offered a great deal until it came with the introduction of Logograms, and then Bozja really solidified the whole exploratory content, in terms of what it offered, but they essentially had to throw the entire kitchen sink at it to make it work as well as it did. - This pretty much reigns true for any piece of content. It's never been solid to start with really. Same with Island Sanctuary... I would say though, both Island Sanctuary and combat exploratory content could actually do with taking concepts from each other.

The thing to keep in mind is that it's always going to be a somewhat trial by fire. Budget and resources unfortunately are finite, so you aren't going to get something new without it coming at the expense of something else. This hits the nail harder than anything else, because then they still need to iterate through it, e.g., Pagos > Pyros. So it's like restarting the cycle of content development I guess.

I would say, placing this on a singular individual is a big mistake, as I don't think the issue is wholly on that one person. I don't think XIV gets the budget it really deserves, again, going back to the whole getting x must come at the expense of y - In an ideal world we would have gotten an exploratory zone in addition to everything we've gotten this expansion. With this in mind, I don't think it really matters who you actually put in that seat, to be honest. - Taking into account that they will still be under the same budgeting constraints and would still be developing for the same community, and we're a very divisive community. - You'll find as many people discontent with something such as exploratory content as to what there are people content with it. Similarly, you'll find just as many people discontent with relic grinds as there are people content with it. It's really not just as simple as a 1 person issue.

Dawntrail has given me things to be skeptically hopeful about, and a lot of it is around the interviews, etc., suggesting another exploration zone and a 'never before seen' piece of battle content. Based on this it does have the potential to be one of the most content-heavy expansions we've had... Now whether this potential does make it into reality is a different subject matter.

I think the best thing they need to learn is to reflect on older systems and to see what worked, and how it could be fed into newer systems, e.g., there is no reason why Variant/Criterion couldn't have borrowed a lot more duty actions from the Logos/Essences system.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

Sales in Japan are so far the worst of the entire mainline series (most of which weren't multiplatform entries), and it was beaten by Pikmin 4 in a single week.
Square Enix claimed the sales were strong after one week, but it barely sold any copy since. It seems the game hasn't convinced anyone who didn't already bought it day one.

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From what I got, despite the being a deception in japan, the worldwide number are on par with FFXV (adjusted to to the pool of consoles) .

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Originally Posted by Koros

The only reason it's even above 80 is because of Soken's music, the stunning primal fights, the great early game story with a complex political narrative (that they basically wasted after Titan) and CBU3 fanboyism.

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I think they even failed at CBU3 fanboyism. Outside of Japan, FFXIV is mainly played on PC. Making it a PS5 exclusives cut a good part of those fanboys. Most people won't pay 600$/€ for ONE game. The FFXIV playerbase was the most easy sales they could make, and they prefered to take the money for exclusivity. With the lukewarm reception the game got, I'm not sure those people will buy to the game in a year when it release on pc (pretty sure the 18 month plan is linked to that PC release). Reception was good enough, but as some said, it's not acclaimed like TotK or BG3 are. The FFXVI hype is already dead, and it feels like it's gonna be remembered as an "honorable mention", more that a game one of THE games of this year.

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Originally Posted by Koros

It's not even 90 on Metacritic.

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So is Nier Automata which is considered universally succesful but has an 88 on that site while FFXVI is an 87.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

So is Nier Automata which is considered universally succesful but has an 88 on that site while FFXVI is an 87.

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And Cyberpunk also got 87 despite it being a disaster. Only games over 90 can even be plausibly considered as universally successful.

Nier Automata is not. There are many issues with that game.

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Originally Posted by TheNight

And Cyberpunk also got 87 despite it being a disaster. Only games over 90 can even be plausibly considered as universally successful.

Nier Automata is not. There are many issues with that game.

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That's the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. First of all, it's funny how you take metacritic as gospel when you just proved that the site sometikes makes no sense when something like Cyberpunk has an 86 when it clearly deserves less but it's delusional to think that the original Nier Automata didn't pop off because it didn't have a 90.

You don't understand how success is gauged at all.

anyone who puts XV ahead of XVI has got a screw loose.

metacritic scores mean nothing. stop.

BG3 is being talked about more than XVI because it was released just recently and people are still in the "ooh new shiny" phase.

sales numbers for XVI are doing just fine. once it comes out for PC there'll be more talk again and more sales.

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

From what I got, despite the being a deception in japan, the worldwide number are on par with FFXV (adjusted to to the pool of consoles) .

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True. If we remove Xbox numbers entirely (which were a third of the overall sales overseas), XVI sold a bit better than XV the first week despite a worse userbase (50 million PS4 sold in december 2016 vs 42 million PS5 now) and poor numbers in japan. But it seem to have fallen off harder from both the charts and the public mind than its predecessor, which didn't have a great critical reception to begin with.

Next people are going go take GoTY seriously when it's just an obvious corporate marketing catered to mindless masses who care about video games as if they're were politics.

Actually that's exactly what people are nowadays, games are just another form of politics and that's ironic and sad considering how some people say they hate politics, yet the behavior, elitism and White knight is exactly that

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

True. If we remove Xbox numbers entirely (which were a third of the overall sales overseas), XVI sold a bit better than XV the first week despite a worse userbase (50 million PS4 sold in december 2016 vs 42 million PS5 now) and poor numbers in japan. But it seem to have fallen off harder from both the charts and the public mind than its predecessor, which didn't have a great critical reception to begin with.

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doooooom and glooooommmm!! nuuuuuuuuuuu

ok man whatever you need to tell yourself to sleep at night. no one here actually cares about sales numbers. the only people that need to care about sales numbers is Square Enix staff itself and they're not here right? lol j/k

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

doooooom and glooooommmm!! nuuuuuuuuuuu

ok man whatever you need to tell yourself to sleep at night. no one here actually cares about sales numbers. the only people that need to care about sales numbers is Square Enix staff itself and they're not here right? lol j/k

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What's wrong with discussing actual numbers in a thread specifically about Yoshi-P and CBU3's success instead of throwing darts in the dark? I wasn't even the one who brought up sales in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

Let's keep it down to earth, let's talk that real ish; YoshiP hasn't done anything great since heavensward (maybe stormblood).

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Well, if we're gonna "keep it real," we'd be acknowledging that ShB is widely considered the "best" expansion, and EW is the solid #2 (with the highest active playerbase to date), so the dev team has only continued excelling and doing "great" things.

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And Cyberpunk also got 87 despite it being a disaster.

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You do realize this only advances the argument that Metacritic scores can be relatively worthless, right?

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You don't understand how success is gauged at all.

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He does. He's just trolling. The hilarious part is how the dedicated negative echo chamber in here laps it up thinking he's trashing FFXIV, but if you realize the full picture, you know he's confident the game is thriving.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

That's the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. First of all, it's funny how you take metacritic as gospel when you just proved that the site sometikes makes no sense when something like Cyberpunk has an 86 when it clearly deserves less but it's delusional to think that the original Nier Automata didn't pop off because it didn't have a 90.

You don't understand how success is gauged at all.

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It's even more ridiculous to think FF16 was a success in any way. It was absolutely demolished by BG3.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Next people are going go take GoTY seriously when it's just an obvious corporate marketing catered to mindless masses who care about video games as if they're were politics.

Actually that's exactly what people are nowadays, games are just another form of politics and that's ironic and sad considering how some people say they hate politics, yet the behavior, elitism and White knight is exactly that

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Anything to cope that FF16 will win literally zero GotYs bud

Hasn't done anything great since Heavensward? What are you talking about? FF14 has only grown since then. I would say that they're doing something right.

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Originally Posted by Koros

It's even more ridiculous to think FF16 was a success in any way. It was absolutely demolished by BG3.

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The degree to which BG3 has galvanized opinions around FF16 in my circles has been wild. A few people I know who were deeply invested in the idea of XVI being good have pretty much about-faced after getting their hands on BG3.

It turns out RPG fans like RPG mechanics in their RPG games; Who woulda thought?

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

Sales in Japan are so far the worst of the entire mainline series (most of which weren't multiplatform entries), and it was beaten by Pikmin 4 in a single week.
Square Enix claimed the sales were strong after one week, but it barely sold any copy since. It seems the game hasn't convinced anyone who didn't already buy it day one.

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XVI is not multiplatform, and the PS5 is the worst-selling PlayStation console in Japan, even disregarding the 2+ year period where seemingly no one could buy one. Comparing it to a Nintendo game in a country that only buys Nintendo consoles now is amusing.

i have zero interest in what is or what is not GOTY. you shouldn't either. you should just play what you want and not care about what everyone else is playing.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

i have zero interest in what is or what is not GOTY. you shouldn't either. you should just play what you want and not care about what everyone else is playing.

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Waiiiiiit a minute ? What ? And what about the streaming bald angry man or the weird alabama vibe almost bald man or that woman with bunny ears with witch like giggle or the middle age man that looks like he cut his hair himself ? I dont need their validations ? You are crazy Sir!!!

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

BG3 is being talked about more than XVI because it was released just recently and people are still in the "ooh new shiny" phase.

sales numbers for XVI are doing just fine. once it comes out for PC there'll be more talk again and more sales.

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Exactly. There was a chunk of us who bought a PS5 for XVI, but the vast majority of people who have a beefy gaming computer are not going to buy a console for one game.

When XVI launches on PC in 6-12 months, the numbers will shoot up again. Maybe they'll even have some of the minor QoL improvements and framerate fixes in by then.

I also think it'll have a boost around Christmas, when people get PS5s for the holiday.

As for the topic of Yoshi P vs Nomura: I think Yoshi P is a better producer. His shit came out on time and mostly bug free. As opposed to most of the clowns in SE that let their projects stew in development hell for years and have to change engines, change consoles, and eventually split their own projects into multiple parts because they can't trim scope.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

Exactly. There was a chunk of us who bought a PS5 for XVI, but the vast majority of people who have a beefy gaming computer are not going to buy a console for one game.

When XVI launches on PC in 6-12 months, the numbers will shoot up again. Maybe they'll even have some of the minor QoL improvements and framerate fixes in by then.

I also think it'll have a boost around Christmas, when people get PS5s for the holiday.

As for the topic of Yoshi P vs Nomura: I think Yoshi P is a better producer. His shit came out on time and mostly bug free. As opposed to most of the clowns in SE that let their projects stew in development hell for years and have to change engines, change consoles, and eventually split their own projects into multiple parts because they can't trim scope.

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Yeah Nomura is known for constantly changing ideas mid-developement then scraping the game and rebuilding it numerous times then taking 10+ years to finally finish and release something.

As long as we're taking Metacritic seriously for some reason, let's look at the scores...

Heavensward: 86

Stormblood: 87

Shadowbringers: 90

Endwalker: 92

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

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What's wrong with discussing actual numbers in a thread specifically about Yoshi-P and CBU3's success instead of throwing darts in the dark? I wasn't even the one who brought up sales in the first place.

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Because their success doesn't support their narrative. Half of these forums live in a world of self-delusion and narcissism.

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Originally Posted by VictorSpoils

XVI is not multiplatform, and the PS5 is the worst-selling PlayStation console in Japan, even disregarding the 2+ year period where seemingly no one could buy one. Comparing it to a Nintendo game in a country that only buys Nintendo consoles now is amusing.

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This is what these FUDster trolls always do. Can you FEEL the DOOM yet?

I mean first of all Nomura also co-created The World Ends With You, which is a good series.
Second of all, neither him nor Yoshida are as hands-on with the games they produce as people think. Yoshida has to approve everything, but the people designing the features and games are the ones who come up with stuff. He's also the main PR, which is a big part of the producer role. Just like Eiji Aonuma will be front and center in PR even though credits to how the latest Zeldas came out is credited to the director Hidemaro Fujibayashi and his team. But being the PR doesn't mean you created the games.

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Originally Posted by VictorSpoils

XVI is not multiplatform, and the PS5 is the worst-selling PlayStation console in Japan, even disregarding the 2+ year period where seemingly no one could buy one. Comparing it to a Nintendo game in a country that only buys Nintendo consoles now is amusing.

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Excuses. PS5 obviously doesn't have PS4 or combined PS4-PC-Xbox numbers, but neither did PS1, 2 or 3 when their first final fantasy games came out and still sold as well or better than the company expected.

Final Fantasy VII, VIII, X, XII and even the oh-so-hated XIII sold systems. Final Fantasy XVI failing to do that is still attesting to how the brand fell from grace.

And before you go "but muh economy crisis/muh lower buying power", even PS5's current price in the current economy doesn't hold a candle to how overpriced PS3 was.

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Originally Posted by TheNight

And Cyberpunk also got 87 despite it being a disaster. Only games over 90 can even be plausibly considered as universally successful.

Nier Automata is not. There are many issues with that game.

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Cyberpunk was a disaster for some people. My experience was great. I played through my canon run from launch day with only some minor issues: People oft mistake the clamor of an angry minority online as the sentiment of the masses when the masses are more busy playing the damn game than posting stupid bs on Reddit.

Cyberpunk is amazing nowadays and it has a huge dlc coming. I enjoyed it after they fixed a lot of the bugs. Game is beautiful and the story is great.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

Exactly. There was a chunk of us who bought a PS5 for XVI, but the vast majority of people who have a beefy gaming computer are not going to buy a console for one game.

When XVI launches on PC in 6-12 months, the numbers will shoot up again. Maybe they'll even have some of the minor QoL improvements and framerate fixes in by then.

I also think it'll have a boost around Christmas, when people get PS5s for the holiday.

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That's where I disagree. If you think that the numbers will significantly grow when the pc version is released, I'm not sure. Sure the most dedicated FF fans will buy it, but by missing the windows of opportunity the release it, I'll doubt they will get the curious you would have got by simultaneous release. They will surely grow, but I wouldn't bet on shoot up. You can't redo the release. Most people already know the game, and the critics around it. By the time it is released, people will have passed to something else. When released at a later time on pc, none of the SE games created a second wind for their game, and I doubt it will happens this time.

The game did fairly well, and positive critics, despite the same problems being noticed by all. At best the pc version will garantee sales on the long term. It's FF, people will continue to buy them over time, but I don't expect a second peak when pc version is released. For that you have to create a hype, that train is gone. You already waited 6 months/a year, so what does a couple of month more will change.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Final Fantasy VII, VIII, X, XII and even the oh-so-hated XIII sold systems. Final Fantasy XVI failing to do that is still attesting to how the brand fell from grace.

And before you go "but muh economy crisis/muh lower buying power", even PS5's current price in the current economy doesn't hold a candle to how overpriced PS3 was.

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Yeah, but PS1 and PS2 didn't cost 600$. PS2 costed around 250$, and even with inflation, that's nowhere near the price of the PS5. If I agree FF has kinda lost its grace since the PS3, I don't think that specific point is a good indicator. Too many things have changed.