Ronka/Toral Theory

I think in some way the first is going to connect to Toral/The New World. The first trailer for Dawntrail makes an emphasis on Y'shtola visiting a Toral ruin that resembles Ronka from the first, which we know she studied very intensely in the story.

This I think will be the link, but how? There are so many implications if this is true.

Was Ronka first, or was Toral first? Most likely, it would probably be Toral if we are thinking based on how the first was formed. The first evolved out of a split of history. Everything in the first resembles the source, but only because of that one point of shared history before the split that was the sundering.

If Ronka was first, then that means the FIRST went to Toral, and influenced it in some way. Which might make sense, because Toral is very far away from the source. Why would the Great Ronkan Ruins be on the same landmass as Eorzea on the first, if they split off of Toral..

Perhaps Toral went to the first.. well.. first. (Bad pun) :p That could just as easily explain Ronka.. but who knows. It could go any way.

Considering physical location and parallels of Ronka in the First with the Source, I believe its meant to be parallel of Ampador, not anything on New World, considering entirety of New World equivalent in the First got kinda, you know annihilated.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

The first trailer for Dawntrail makes an emphasis on Y'shtola visiting a Toral ruin that resembles Ronka from the first, which we know she studied very intensely in the story.

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The trailer did remind me of the Ronkan Empire when I first watched it. Ronka is a reference to an ancient advanced civilization in FFV, which itself is built off of a split world premise. It's possible that, in FFXIV, they had independently managed to find a way to traverse the shards, which could help Y'shtola's quest along if she is able to follow in their footsteps. What would be really interesting is if the legacy of their civilization could be found on the other remaining shards as well.

The First had multiple European-style cultures and ones but no one is saying that they are somehow influenced by Sixth Era civilizations.

The world split happened before ANY civilization that wasn’t the same monolithic Ancient race and culture was created. The fact that there’s people building European castles on two worlds and two civilizations resembling Meso-America as well is most likely a coincidence more than anything. I know European culture is considered “default” for fantasy but that doesn’t mean that anything that isn’t “default” means it has to be from the same, unique source because of how “different” it is from our euro-centric view.

Besides, Limsa and Eulmore look nearly identical and are in the same spot but Limsa is only 700 years old and we already know exactly how it came about.

It would be much more confusing if someone world-hopped and decided to bring their culture not to the same location in the other world, but to one that’s on the completely opposite side of the planet.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

It would be much more confusing if someone world-hopped and decided to bring their culture not to the same location in the other world, but to one that’s on the completely opposite side of the planet.

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Especially because, as 6.4 showed us and was implicitly suggested by the start of Shadowbringers, a gate between shards opens up at more or less the same geographical location in both. There's a bit of shuffling (The WoL was in the Syrcus Trench but wound up above ground in Shadowbringers, the moon voidgate is situated in the Zodiark Hole on the Source but opens up at the crater's edge on the Thirteenth), but generally you end up at the right location. Tural being inspired by Ronka--or vice versa, as it happens--would require significant overseas travel on one side or the other, because to get straight to Ronka you'd have to open the gate in the Shroud, and a gate in Tural would open up to the now-destroyed First equivalent.

Also, more on a direction side of things than an in-story logic side... maybe let's not have the native inhabitants of a continent that's specifically being painted as independent and uncolonized, and with the developers explicitly saying they're trying to do them proper justice, be basing their entire aesthetic on a place from another dimension's psuedo-Europe? Like, I think the entire point of Tural is that they've developed on their own and have entirely their own thing going on, why don't we let them be a nation of their own power and identity instead?

The simpler solution, if there is a link at all, would be parallel development of similar cultures in the early days of different shards that then diverged as things went differently over time.

Maybe the Ronkan culture started in First-Tural and then a group of them for some reason transferred to Norvrandt and established their own branch of the empire there.

I think we're introducing in a lot of assumptions into how this works. The point being made is that there may potentially be a connection between these two cultures (and to FFV's Ronka). We can't really draw any direct conclusions from that, only speculation.

As was pointed out, the shards themselves diverged 12000 years ago. We know that Calamity of Ice and the Calamity of Water had significant impacts on the geography of the Source. There previously was a land bridge to Meracydia. That's gone now, and a large proportion of the world map is presently water. If we were to see a shard that is relatively distant from us, like say the Fifth Shard, is it not possible that it may be geographically much closer to the World Unsundered than it is to modern day Etheirys?

We know, for example, that the Tempest is the place where Emet chose to reconstruct Amaurot. When he dies and the illusion wavers, we can see the ruins of old buildings. The analogue to the Tempest on the Source is the Indigo Deep. While it's possible that the Amaurotines were originally aquatic, it's also possible that this region was once above water, so perhaps geographically this was the original site of Amaurot on all shards. Is it not possible that Toral and Eorzea were once part of the same landmass in antediluvian times? And that's excluding the possibility that the Ronkans lived in a flying city in the first place, in which case it could have been based anywhere.

The other assumption here is that Ronka itself was originally a civilization of the First, as opposed to the Source or any other shard for that matter. What makes them interesting is that this is potentially an advanced ancient civilization that could have spread across the shards, which would make them more advanced than the Allagans. It could be that the people of Toral have secrets in their heritage that are technologically miles ahead of anything we've seen in Eorzea, without needing to be tied down to Amaurot or some such. It also means that there could be other things at stake in the separation of the shards as well, if the Ronkans had interest in exploring them. The possibility itself is interesting.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

There previously was a land bridge to Meracydia.

The analogue to the Tempest on the Source is the Indigo Deep. While it's possible that the Amaurotines were originally aquatic, it's also possible that this region was once above water, so perhaps geographically this was the original site of Amaurot on all shards. Is it not possible that Toral and Eorzea were once part of the same landmass in antediluvian times?

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I don't believe there was ever a land bridge. There was an ice bridge in the Age of Endless Frost.

And entire continents, an ocean apart, would not have simply once had land connecting them except on the timescale of continental drift, which – using Earth as a stand-in – would have likely already been in their current positions 12,000 years ago. (Compare Earth's Holocene epoch.)

Amaurot is more equatable to Atlantis, which I recall from some previous lore panel was an early name for the FFXIV city.

Also, what are you using "antediluvian" to mean? Pre-Sundering? Use that term instead of one referencing a different world's different catastrophe – literally, before the biblical flood of Noah's Ark. Doubly confusing when Etheirys has its own world-drowning flood event unrelated to the Sundering.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

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I know what you mean, but Koji specifically referred to it as a 'land bridge' in a 2018 Fan Fest interview (likely in reference to the analogous real world theory), which is why I tried to keep the terminology consistent. Don't worry, I can be a bit pedantic myself, but I do try not to go out of my way to trouble others with it.

The word antediluvian means 'before the flood', as you can tell from its etymological roots in 'before' and 'deluge'. The mythological concept of a 'great flood' is so culturally ubiquitous around the world that you'd find it extraordinarily difficult to credit it to just one, and that biblical association that you're drawing on is just a reflection of a historically ethnocentric worldview. The meaning is much broader than that.

Context should have told you that I was referencing the Calamity of Water, which subsequently altered the geographical landscape yet again after the Calamity of Ice. We know that not every shard experiences the effects of the Calamities the same way (as an example, the First was more influenced by the Flood of Darkness on the Thirteenth than any other shard, bringing it to the brink). It stands to follow that some shards may have been less affected by the Calamities of Ice and Water than others, which in turn may be reflected in their geography.

Either way, while I'm happy to field questions on the meanings of words if you were genuinely seeking a clarification on what I'm writing, but unfortunately I don't have time to dwell on all my language choices with you.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

The world split happened before ANY civilization that wasn’t the same monolithic Ancient race and culture was created.

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Is there a source for this? Because I got the impression (maybe reading between the lines) that the world unsundered was also a widely diverse world, with the ancients/Amaurotians simply being the dominant civilisation.
Venat's whole shtick about travelling the world and visiting different people and gaining new experiences, falls a little flat if we presume the whole world is just the same monolithic culture.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Is there a source for this? Because I got the impression (maybe reading between the lines) that the world unsundered was also a widely diverse world, with the ancients/Amaurotians simply being the dominant civilisation.
Venat's whole shtick about travelling the world and visiting different people and gaining new experiences, falls a little flat if we presume the whole world is just the same monolithic culture.

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The new lore book describes the Ancients as the singular people who lived upon the star pre-Sundering. It also says that most citizens wore the same simple robe and mask, which implies a universal culture.

Even if there were other cultures, all of the worlds were effectively reset at the Sundering. People were reduced to producing cave paintings and we also know that none of the existing races existed prior to the Sundering.

I find it highly unlikely that any sort of culture survived and that everyone had to restart from zero.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Is there a source for this? Because I got the impression (maybe reading between the lines) that the world unsundered was also a widely diverse world, with the ancients/Amaurotians simply being the dominant civilisation.
Venat's whole shtick about travelling the world and visiting different people and gaining new experiences, falls a little flat if we presume the whole world is just the same monolithic culture.

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A question during the lore / localization panel was specifically about if there were other civilizations during the time of Amaurot, and no, the Convocation led the entirety of the star and mankind. The Ancients had complete control.

Well that... really makes Venat out to be a highly eccentric individual.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Well that... really makes Venat out to be a highly eccentric individual.

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I mean, even a small coutnry has plenty of different people and views and ways to approach life and the world. Even in Elpis, there's the few who enjoy the agriculture, or even on the island Azem wanted to save from the volcano, who were cultivating grapes.
When Venat mentions she loves everybody, it's these people. Hermes was mightily interested by stars, some others by plants, another by creaton magick, the list is long. Just because it was just one big civilization doesn't mean people were copy pastes of each others, thy all had their own special ways to see the world.

I think it reads that Venat is one of the few people in this one-world government that actually tries to care about the whole world beyond just lip service.

I mean, chances are pretty good that you don't even care about all of the country you live in, especially if said country is pretty big: it's just psychologically really hard to care about that large a group of people.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I think it reads that Venat is one of the few people in this one-world government that actually tries to care about the whole world beyond just lip service.

I mean, chances are pretty good that you don't even care about all of the country you live in, especially if said country is pretty big: it's just psychologically really hard to care about that large a group of people.

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Agree with the first part, not with the last part. lol It definitely took a special person to properly fill Azem's seat, regardless.

Also, does one world government have to equal one nation state? I was thinking its more "all nation/city states agree to this governing body, but are still their own thing". That would explain to me why people talking in Glamaurot about "that city across the ocean" so detachedly makes sense. Cus its their people, but not their people. Of course, that kinda ties back in to my disagreement with your second statement, I guess. I'm in Florida and would very much feel like an attack on Hawaii was personal, or feel personal concern about the people in East Palestine, Ohio. I recognize that that can vary person to person of course, but the bond of common national citizenship is felt very strongly by a lot of people in my experience.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

Agree with the first part, not with the last part. lol It definitely took a special person to properly fill Azem's seat, regardless.

Also, does one world government have to equal one nation state? I was thinking its more "all nation/city states agree to this governing body, but are still their own thing". That would explain to me why people talking in Glamaurot about "that city across the ocean" so detachedly makes sense. Cus its their people, but not their people. Of course, that kinda ties back in to my disagreement with your second statement, I guess. I'm in Florida and would very much feel like an attack on Hawaii was personal, or feel personal concern about the people in East Palestine, Ohio. I recognize that that can vary person to person of course, but the bond of common national citizenship is felt very strongly by a lot of people in my experience.

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If there was a earthquakes taking place in a mid-sized city you've never heard of before and didn't have TV / Internet / the radio to tell you its name, you'd probably just follow hearsays and name it "that city over the sea".
I'm in Europe, I know there has been huge fires in the US / Canada recently, I couldn't tell you near what city it was. I couldn't tell you what cities were flooded in my own country, really, despite having a bunch of storms being covered on the news recently.

The answer states that the World Unsundered was unified under Amaurotine rule at the time of the Warrior of Light's arrival on Elpis. That could mean many different things. Perhaps Amaurot was the capitol of the world from the very origin of the star, and people just fell under the Convocation's leadership by consensus without any infighting. Perhaps Amaurot took a more imperial route and unified various peoples under the banner of their city state.

The original question referenced the Debate and Discourse quest and the possibility of other cultures (like the 'metropolis across the pond'), but seeing as that was left out in the response my guess is that they want to keep their story options as open-ended as possible for now. Perhaps the scenario was hypothetical, perhaps it wasn't. I'm sure that they'll find other ways to explore the topic more in the future, eventually.

Note: Ronka was a floating city (in FF5, and probably 14 but not sure) a la Secret of Mana’s Mana Fortress. Meaning it could supposedly move locations. Add the population of Viera nearby possibly protecting the ruins in Tural and there is a solid maaaaybe. I still doubt it, but it’s not entirely out.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I think we're introducing in a lot of assumptions into how this works. The point being made is that there may potentially be a connection between these two cultures (and to FFV's Ronka). We can't really draw any direct conclusions from that, only speculation.

As was pointed out, the shards themselves diverged 12000 years ago. We know that Calamity of Ice and the Calamity of Water had significant impacts on the geography of the Source. There previously was a land bridge to Meracydia. That's gone now, and a large proportion of the world map is presently water. If we were to see a shard that is relatively distant from us, like say the Fifth Shard, is it not possible that it may be geographically much closer to the World Unsundered than it is to modern day Etheirys?

We know, for example, that the Tempest is the place where Emet chose to reconstruct Amaurot. When he dies and the illusion wavers, we can see the ruins of old buildings. The analogue to the Tempest on the Source is the Indigo Deep. While it's possible that the Amaurotines were originally aquatic, it's also possible that this region was once above water, so perhaps geographically this was the original site of Amaurot on all shards. Is it not possible that Toral and Eorzea were once part of the same landmass in antediluvian times? And that's excluding the possibility that the Ronkans lived in a flying city in the first place, in which case it could have been based anywhere.

The other assumption here is that Ronka itself was originally a civilization of the First, as opposed to the Source or any other shard for that matter. What makes them interesting is that this is potentially an advanced ancient civilization that could have spread across the shards, which would make them more advanced than the Allagans. It could be that the people of Toral have secrets in their heritage that are technologically miles ahead of anything we've seen in Eorzea, without needing to be tied down to Amaurot or some such. It also means that there could be other things at stake in the separation of the shards as well, if the Ronkans had interest in exploring them. The possibility itself is interesting.

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Opening a new civilization up to tie new tomes to after ten years would make sense. What if we switched to ancient Torals version of tomes instead of Allagan ones.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

Opening a new civilization up to tie new tomes to after ten years would make sense. What if we switched to ancient Torals version of tomes instead of Allagan ones.

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Firstly, it's Tural not Toral.

Secondly, changing tomestones is a difficult thing that they've dug themselves into, because unique endgame currency is fleeting and everything reverts to poetics in time.

The only way to get away from the "Allagan tomes are found everywhere" thing in the long run would be to make a permanent breakaway to a different long-term currency, and I'm not sure that they'd be willing to do that.

I might be missing something, but I can't think of a reason why it couldn't be possible.

My understanding was that Rowena finds markets for the tomestones with rich collectors, who are interested in the 'libraries' worth o' knowledge' contained within them. The reason why Auriana exchanges the older tomestones is because Rowena decides that 'they're not worth the hassle anymore', and then Auriana apparently finds some sort of use for them. Maybe someday she will unveil Etheriys' largest domino collection.

Naturally, there are also plenty of other up and coming mercantile empires that we can trade whatever type of ancient artifact serves as endgame currency on Tural. Tataru's last venture was selling islands in the Cieldalaes, so it wouldn't be surprising to see her expand her business further westward. I'm sure that she'd be willing to let some of her less profitable wares go to Rowena in exchange for Poetics... allowing for a suitable profit margin, of course.

That being said, Mowen also seemed to have started up her own collection of Allagan tomestones on the First, so I suppose these things could show up literally anywhere. But it would be fun to go to something different, at least for a few expansions.

Id like to remind everyone that, the proliferation of tomestones in other places, can be the result of us being in that place in the first place, as far as the npcs go. As for dungeons, we don't canonically find them there, and its just a gamification, since they are granted separately from the actions of the dungeon. EG: You don't get tomestones out of the chest loot that a dungeon contains.

The roulettes are a gameplay mechanic and not canon that you’re constantly rerunning dungeons- except there is a handwave of Echo visions and the Wandering Minstrel to explain that any non-MSQ or repeat occurrence of a fight can be handwaved as your WoL either remembering and daydreaming about it or retelling what happened (or should have happened) to an audience. So my RP handwave is that we know tomestones are currencies among adventures because we’re not Rowena’s sole provider. Thus the tomestones we receive aren’t from inside the duties but the fee from other adventurers. It’s our consulting fee- we’re telling other adventurers what our strategies were and workshopping with them.

Also, reminder that we were getting Allagan tomestones during the expansion set in another dimension. If they weren't gonna change up the endgame tokens for that one, they never will.

tbf for that, it was mentioned that the tomestones on the First were very casually found in the Crystal Tower; much like how every state had their own currency until the Exarch appeared and they oh so conveniently decided to use gil as well because of some coins found inside, ofc, Crystal Tower.

The team does like to use winks and nudges that amount to "don't think about it."

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Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

tbf for that, it was mentioned that the tomestones on the First were very casually found in the Crystal Tower; much like how every state had their own currency until the Exarch appeared and they oh so conveniently decided to use gil as well because of some coins found inside, ofc, Crystal Tower.

The team does like to use winks and nudges that amount to "don't think about it."

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While I hope for nothing more than a tiny bit of Allagan representation in Tural, they could at least justify use of tomes in that the Allagans were a space-faring empire. At least as in low-Hydaelyn orbit and the Moon.

While what we know says they only conquered the Three Great Continents + Meracydia, they should have had some knowledge about the Western Continent and that could explain the presence of tomes if they keep this up for Dawntrail.

Funny enough, they actually DID reach Tural according to EE2. It sounds like a soft retcon since it wasn't mentioned in EE1.

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Originally Posted by Encyclopedia Eorzea Volume II

Science and Sorcery: “With the Third Astral Era came the rise of the Allagan Empire, and it was but a matter of centuries before the nation had conquered most of the Three Great Continents, as well as portions of the New World. However, their true prize was not the land and its resources, nor the people and their labor, but the boundless knowledge of a thousand civilizations - knowledge that could be applied, adapted, and improved upon. It was through conquest abroad that the Allagans could further strengthen their cultural core."

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I tend to joke that it's Always Allag unless it's Always Ascians (and with the Emet reveal, they're one and the same), so I would facepalm but not be surprised for a secret Allagan facility somewhere beneath Tural... especially given Noah revealed there were other facilities like Orthos around the world...

ETA: Don't get me wrong, I long for the game to divorce itself from Allag, but it doesn't seem like the team has any intention of doing so.

Was brainstorming after the EU fanfest and decided to do some forums searches for things related to Ronka, and much to my surprise I found this thread.

Even after EU fanfest though, I'd say the threads linking various aspects of Ronka to Tural are tenuous at best, but there are little bits here and there that are fun to think about.

Galuf being a person of interest (to what extent, we shall see), also being a major character in FFV, in which you visit the Ronkan Ruins.

Said ruins being guarded by a large winged serpent, possibly Valigarmanda?

This one is really stretching it, but Viper being the new job, who's namesake is perhaps in reference to the great serpent? Maybe not...

New area design art depicting a large desert with a big fat definitely-not-flying-city-sized [SECRET] smear, notable with trains being present in the scenery.

Directly after such being concept art for a dungeon that, if you hit your head real hard and squint, kind of look vaguely similar to the battle background art in FFV when fighting the Ronkan Ruin's defense systems, with implications of being entered via train (wreck).

Like I said, it's tenuous and really stretching it, but it's fun to consider. It'll probably just be Allagans again :p

I noticed this a bit after the JP fanfest dungeon crawl video, and I was hesitant to point it out because there's likely nothing at all to it. At this point, it's absolutely just confirmation bias for me, but y'know... even if it is, it's really making me wonder...

Did anyone else notice these little flame-bearing statues?

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...b2d1ca7a2126f&

A lot of the architecture we see in the Turals draws some pretty obvious comparisons to what we saw in the Greatwood, but a lot of that comes down to both sharing similar real-world parallels. But this? That just straight up looks like an Amaro to me, or what I'd imagine Amaro might have looked like earlier in the First's history, when they might have more closely resembled scaled reptiles.

Granted, they could just be artistic visages of some local fauna, or they could just be nothing at all, but I still see some resemblance.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

While what we know says they only conquered the Three Great Continents + Meracydia, they should have had some knowledge about the Western Continent and that could explain the presence of tomes if they keep this up for Dawntrail.

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Conquered or not, we know they had spaceships... they knew it for sure, might even have mapped it out for later..

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Originally Posted by Mayhemmer

That just straight up looks like an Amaro to me

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I don't see any resemblance to an amaro at all, just a snake's head.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

The other assumption here is that Ronka itself was originally a civilization of the First, as opposed to the Source or any other shard for that matter. What makes them interesting is that this is potentially an advanced ancient civilization that could have spread across the shards, which would make them more advanced than the Allagans. It could be that the people of Toral have secrets in their heritage that are technologically miles ahead of anything we've seen in Eorzea, without needing to be tied down to Amaurot or some such. It also means that there could be other things at stake in the separation of the shards as well, if the Ronkans had interest in exploring them. The possibility itself is interesting.

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I think this has an outside chance of being true, personally. Ronka/Tural having a common ancestor in, say, the ninth shard (cus Solution Nine) could be interesting.

Alternatively, it might go the way of explaining commonalities between Turali and Ronkan architecture like they did the commonalities btwn Eulmore and Limsa. Or how Yoshi-P explained how the same races "evolved" on each shard: completely improbable and coincidental convergent evolution post-sundering. In 12 thousand years. (... I really do hope we never have that stated as canon in-game. It bugs me.)

So yeah, we may just get no explanation. But if there IS an explanation, I like the common ancestor from a third-party shard idea.

I wanted to resurrect this in light of all that's come out since Dawntrail. Besides the commonalities in the general turali architecture, Tender Valley has a Yok Huy temple devoted to the Great Serpent filled with Ronkan-but-green defense mechanisms and all but identical murals and carvings to the Qitana Ravel. The Skydeep Cenote gives us similar architecture to the Ravel as well right up until it meets up with the Alexandrian gate, and the dungeon armor sets are the Ronkan armor sets but purple.

The Ronkan Empire was wiped out by a mysterious disease, similar to the Yok Huy expedition as well. Being their proximity to the Alexandrian gate, the question remains, did the Yok Huy utilize it for cross-shard travel and propagate to the First?

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Originally Posted by Remarus

The Ronkan Empire was wiped out by a mysterious disease, similar to the Yok Huy expedition as well. Being their proximity to the Alexandrian gate, the question remains, did the Yok Huy utilize it for cross-shard travel and propagate to the First?

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I think most of the parallels between Ronka and Tural are a consequence of the devs plundering the same real world cultural aesthetic for two different in-game cultures than any actual tangible lore reason. Just like we don’t accuse the people of the 1st, the 9th, and the 13th as secretly having a connection with the Source just because they all have medieval European architecture and clothing.

As far as the Yok Huy go, their disease is not a mystery. The game says they built a bridge to Xak Tural, which at that point had been completely separated, and then they caught a disease that was like a seasonal cold to the locals that they had no defense to and completely ravaged their people to the point they generally can’t even grow to full height anymore.

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Originally Posted by Remarus

The Ronkan Empire was wiped out by a mysterious disease, similar to the Yok Huy expedition as well.

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No it wasn't.

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Originally Posted by Encyclopedia Eorzea 3, pg. 28

The arcane secrets which played such a vital role in Ronkan ascendancy became widespread knowledge, eroding the advantages the empire's military had over its neighbors. History indicates this is when the wolves closed in, nipping at the flanks of their larger prey. Border skirmishes became common, with the empire bleeding territory as the constant conflict ground down its forces. It became a war of attrition, and the more the Ronkans weakened, the more hesitant their allies became to offer aid. When the foe at last massed upon the capital's doorstep, they waited in vain for friendly reinforcements to arrive. But no such help was forthcoming.

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