Class/Job Relationship

Going to start off by saying this isn't a thread to get rid of classes. I just can't imagine how new jobs would feel unique if they branch off of current classes. If you have a serious example of how, for example, a thm could branch off into anything else and still not use the same thunder>thundara combo for the majority of its time and damage, I am beyond happy to hear it.

I'm not sure if anyone has brought this up in the past; the idea is to tone down how many skills that you naturally unlock from being a class and give most of them to the jobs.

I'm not sure exactly how the specifics would work, but, in theory, the current jobs would not be changed in any major way and classes would be more refined into something that is a building block instead of fully functioning, self-sustaining entity.

The concept is that jobs would unlock most of the abilities usable by said job instead of the small portion unlocked with the current system. Classes should still get the basics and, with more freedom to cross-class, be able to function in endgame content if people are inclined to do so. Maybe something along the lines of the major combos are unlocked by jobs.

Using Thm as an example again, it wouldn't unlock any spells beyond Thunder, Blizzard, Fire, and for arguments sake, Thundara (I personally don't think the class should get thundara in the proposed system, but I don't see how it would function competitively without it.) An example for Cnj would be it doesn't learn Sacred Prism or possibly Cura. Gladiator wouldn't learn any of the shield abilities, naturally. Perhaps Warrior learns all the defensive/tanking abilities that Mrd currently has and Mrd learns the offensive abilities. Monk would learn all the elemental fists and I'm not quite sure how Lnc would change. These are just some of the changes, not all the abilities that would be switched around.

The only way I see it working is if jobs were unlocked at an earlier level, something around 20, so that they have more time to work towards their abilities. Again, in a perfect world, jobs would stay the same in practice, and classes would be more refined from where they currently are.

Right now, we don't have enough content to justify Jobs. I can see them allowing a Weaver become a specialist in Linen so they can make a special line of Linen attire for level 50 characters though. Adding content in the process. Or add Dragon slayer that unlocks specialist leve or quest lines to kill boss versions of that kind of beast. Kill enough Dodo and you learn their kick that scales to your level? Either and or anything they offer in the term jobs sounds like a plate for additional content though. A new motive to do things.

Right now we have 1 class going into 1 job. When they decide to include more job options for said class they could always include new abilities for classes and lock some when switching to jobs.
Let's take Gladiator as an example: right now the class is a pure tank with a lot of tanking abilities so it's natural that Paladin gets access to everything GLA has to offer. If they want to add DRK to GLA all they would need to do is add a new set of abilities to the base class (thus making classes even more varied than they are now) that aren't tank oriented and then ,when switching to DRK, you'd lose all those tanking abilities while keeping the damaging buffs and add more with job exclusive abilities. The opposite for Paladin.

This could be a solution.

starting from GreyJorildyn idea, I quote myself:

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They could very well increase the lvl cap for jobs only, though. Wouldn't be a bad idea, imho.... expecially from abilities point of view... if you increment lv cap for both jobs AND class, you will need to think of new abilities for both and this could lead to difficult balancing, since the class abilities will have to be shared with the multiple jobs (coming from that class), but also with the jobs "importing" abilities from that certain class (e.g. like MNK gets abilities from LNC).

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at LV50 jobs are very similar to classes, but then, you can bring them to (let's say) LV75 and you have 25 levels worth of unique abilities tied to that, and ONLY that, job.

They'll figure it out, geez.

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Originally Posted by Guevara

This could be a solution.

starting from GreyJorildyn idea, I quote myself:


at LV50 jobs are very similar to classes, but then, you can bring them to (let's say) LV75 and you have 25 levels worth of unique abilities tied to that, and ONLY that, job.

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Thats not a bad idea, have classes stop learning abilities after 50, or at least at a lot slower frequency, and make jobs get the rest of the new skills from that point on. I could see that working with a level cap increase if each job learned enough new abilities to really differentiate itself from its base class.

@bobbygunz
I know they'll figure out something, but speculation is fun. I get absolutely no enjoyment out of the simple "wait and see" methodology. I like the "wait and see, while I ponder about what I'm waiting for" one.

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Originally Posted by Alkar

Right now we have 1 class going into 1 job. When they decide to include more job options for said class they could always include new abilities for classes and lock some when switching to jobs.
Let's take Gladiator as an example: right now the class is a pure tank with a lot of tanking abilities so it's natural that Paladin gets access to everything GLA has to offer. If they want to add DRK to GLA all they would need to do is add a new set of abilities to the base class (thus making classes even more varied than they are now) that aren't tank oriented and then ,when switching to DRK, you'd lose all those tanking abilities while keeping the damaging buffs and add more with job exclusive abilities. The opposite for Paladin.

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If you're going to create 2 or more unique sets of skills for GLA just to accommodate jobs, then GLA itself is unnecessary. (which its already is!) and jobs should exist on their own.

Also if GLA has access sets of abilities (currently 20 so multiply that) for 3 jobs (thats 60 abilities) that would be super convoluted.

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Originally Posted by Ryans

Thats not a bad idea, have classes stop learning abilities after 50, or at least at a lot slower frequency, and make jobs get the rest of the new skills from that point on. I could see that working with a level cap increase if each job learned enough new abilities to really differentiate itself from its base class.

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Then why have classes at all if PLD75 would have so many more (I'm thinking 10 more atleast if we get 1 every 5 levels) skills than GLA75 (which will still have the same number it had at 50 and the same cross class abilities since all other classes stopped gaining skills at 50)

Down goes classes!

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Originally Posted by Arkine

Then why have classes at all if PLD75 would have so many more (I'm thinking 10 more atleast if we get 1 every 5 levels) skills than GLA75 (which will still have the same number it had at 50 and the same cross class abilities since all other classes stopped gaining skills at 50)

Down goes classes!

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SE isn't going to get rid of classes, I think that much is clear. That reason alone is why I'm not saying get rid of them.

You'll notice I said "at a lot slower frequency" in reference to classes learn skills. If classes are learning abilities at the same rate as jobs, they will have even less differentiation from their jobs then the situation we are in now.

Btw, your math is off on the ratio of class:job in terms of abilities. Unless you are talking about the ratio in the system in my original post, classes and jobs would have 5 moref skills at 75 if classes stopped getting abilities at 50. The difference would be jobs get 10 unique abilities and classes get 10 shared abilities. And again, I said classes should get abilities but at a slower rate than jobs, meaning that they would still get new abilities on the way to 75.

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Originally Posted by Arkine

If you're going to create 2 or more unique sets of skills for GLA just to accommodate jobs, then GLA itself is unnecessary. (which its already is!) and jobs should exist on their own.

Also if GLA has access sets of abilities (currently 20 so multiply that) for 3 jobs (thats 60 abilities) that would be super convoluted.

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2 jobs are more than enough for each class and I don't see why it would make GLA useless. GLA would have a lot more abilities at its disposal (and with the ability limit you'd have to pick which ones you want and can't even use all of them) making it a lot more versatile than jobs. In endgame situations you'll want to use jobs to improve your role in the party even more but when you're soloing or simply doing casual activities you'll want GLA.

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Originally Posted by Alkar

2 jobs are more than enough for each class and I don't see why it would make GLA useless. GLA would have a lot more abilities at its disposal (and with the ability limit you'd have to pick which ones you want and can't even use all of them) making it a lot more versatile than jobs. In endgame situations you'll want to use jobs to improve your role in the party even more but when you're soloing or simply doing casual activities you'll want GLA.

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This isn't a topic about the usefulness of classes compared to jobs. Its a topic about job differentiation from their base class and how future jobs will be added on to the existing classes. As it is now, a job is the same thing as the class but with a small amount of extra abilities. While those abilities can be extremely helpful, it doesn't make them play much different from the class. It makes me wonder how a new job would feel any different from either the base class or the previous jobs attached to the class.

I suppose my problem with the system is that jobs don't change the way you play a class, they simply augment it in the smallest way possible. The simplest way I can say it is; I would like the majority of the skills a job uses be from just that, the job you are using.

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Originally Posted by Ryans

SE isn't going to get rid of classes, I think that much is clear. That reason alone is why I'm not saying get rid of them.

You'll notice I said "at a lot slower frequency" in reference to classes learn skills. If classes are learning abilities at the same rate as jobs, they will have even less differentiation from their jobs then the situation we are in now.

Btw, your math is off on the ratio of class:job in terms of abilities. Unless you are talking about the ratio in the system in my original post, classes and jobs would have 5 moref skills at 75 if classes stopped getting abilities at 50. The difference would be jobs get 10 unique abilities and classes get 10 shared abilities. And again, I said classes should get abilities but at a slower rate than jobs, meaning that they would still get new abilities on the way to 75.

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Well no, jobs already have 5 more skills, and 5 tiers more (5x5=25 + 50 = 75) you'll have in total 10 abilities more and anything a class learns the job gets too, so in a sense as long as the leveling continues the gap between a job and a class will get bigger.

as for cross class abilities (which I rather not count since we should just a class by its own merit not by what it borrows from others) sure you'll probably have access to more though I think with the limitation of 30 skills on the action bar you'll eventually hit a roof and it'll be more about the quality of skills, and I think jobs will come on top in that category.

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Originally Posted by Alkar

2 jobs are more than enough for each class and I don't see why it would make GLA useless. GLA would have a lot more abilities at its disposal (and with the ability limit you'd have to pick which ones you want and can't even use all of them) making it a lot more versatile than jobs. In endgame situations you'll want to use jobs to improve your role in the party even more but when you're soloing or simply doing casual activities you'll want GLA.

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The only thing classes have over jobs in solo/low man situations is access to cure and Stoneskin, (the entire classes are for soloing argument is based around that some jobs can't heal, while classes can borrow cure and stoneskin from CNJ. ask yourself this: if more jobs had a curative skill would you use classes over them for soloing?) but in cases like PLD, WAR and WHM jobs do have access to curative abilities and always performed better, a PLD will outlast and probably out DD GLA with Holy Succor, Divine Veil and Spirits Within. WAR I need not explain since they needed to rebalance them to stop them from being the overloads of solo tanking and DDing and WHM has been proven to be able to dish out damage and stay alive in many situations. (Also BRD can DD and cure, and keep himself refreshed)

As for having more skills, the fact is PLD will out tank GLA and DRK will out DD GLA, so its stuck in a middle (I want to play alone) ground, since nobody wants a mediocre DD or a mediocre tank over a proper one in any PT situation and the fact that as levels go up jobs just get better at their roles while classes stay the same. (CNJ will never out heal WHM because WHM is a CNJ built for healing) which brings us back to the play solo argument, in which I have to say...

Interchangeable Subjobs! go WAR/WHM! the world is yours!

And yes I'm aware the chances of Yoshi and the team being enlightened by my wisdom are very very slim( this slim | ), but that never stopped Barney Stinson from preaching the Bro Code, nor will it stop me.

Hrm... Let me see how to greatly alter how a class works with just 5 abilities... Let's see... Let's pick "Thaumaturge becomes Red Mage"

Let's see about basing it around being a mix of melee and magical DD, generates TP with magic, combo finisher is a TP move. Base THM, subbing CNJ and GLA.

He has a Refresh spell, self-target only, has to be good enough to sustain somewhat decent MP recovery in active mode to continue bombing with spells. Has a mid-tier spell that generates TP and combos into the melee finisher that generates MP. That's 3 abilities. Also has a melee move that deals some powerful DoT and combos into a spell finisher that drains HP innately (boosted even further by Necrogenesis)

Far more sustainable than Black Mage without endangering himself with Convert, continues to nuke with Thunder line, self-heals, can support with Cure/Stoneskin/Protect/Raise, can throw AoE Blood Rite.

From heavy spike damage to sustained DD/support.

I'm not a pro game designer so i'm very sure I didn't get exactly all the best ideas, but it's a start. What do you guys think that could be done in other cases?

Easiest example of a 2nd job from a current class:

ARC > RNG

Ranger can use abilities from both LNC and PGL (As opposed to BRD using CNJ and THM)

30 - Sidewinder (Weapon skill that hits multiple times)
35 - Dead Aim (increases crit hit % for a short time)
40 - Blast Arrow (Melee-ranged shot - has chance to cause stun when being attacked)
45 - Unlimited Shot (use no ammo for the next shot)
50 - Eagle Eye Shot (single shot at massive damage - 15 min recast)

Thought about what they can do, and i really dont know... classes are just utter junk now only newbs play them who dont have jobs unlocked. Archer is proabably the only one that i would use as I dont like bard and all that singing crap, I just like the ranged dd. Even if they increased level cap and I was soloing I wouldnt use classes. They just seem so pointless now.

1 more job for each class would be nice. Would like to see Archer > Ranger.

If they add new classes and we have to level them or if your a new player and you have to level a class then i guess classes make sense and have a means to an end. I think classes and class specific gear should just stop at 50 then you can only level jobs 50+.

There just making to much work for themselfs for sometihng most people wont even use. if they added 60 cap tommorow, and I was soloing. the only class I would level instead of using its related job is Archer.

As it is right now classes are a means to an end, that end being a fully unlocked job.

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Originally Posted by Arkine

WAR I need not explain since they needed to rebalance them to stop them from being the overloads of solo tanking

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Marauder beats Warrior for soloing stronger enemies where as Warrior beats Marauder for soloing multiple weaker enemies. Steel cyclone isnt such a big loss when your fighting less enemies where as all the class abilities will help keep you going for longer.

One thing SE could do to help pronounce the difference between class and job is to add more options to their arsenals. Give lancer access to short spear + shield and give Marauder Axe and Shield giving both access to Gladiator shield abilities. Give Gladiator access to greatsword allowiing it to take better advantage of dd class abilities but in each instance the job wouldnt have access to these other weapons. As for archer and pugilist i'm not really sure maybe archer gets crossbow which has debuffs and pugilist gets a new h2h weapon that has the guard skill(from xi) attached to it? They could also tie new solo/small group efficient class abilities to those weapons locking job and other classes from using them.

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Originally Posted by Ryans

This isn't a topic about the usefulness of classes compared to jobs. Its a topic about job differentiation from their base class and how future jobs will be added on to the existing classes. As it is now, a job is the same thing as the class but with a small amount of extra abilities. While those abilities can be extremely helpful, it doesn't make them play much different from the class. It makes me wonder how a new job would feel any different from either the base class or the previous jobs attached to the class.

I suppose my problem with the system is that jobs don't change the way you play a class, they simply augment it in the smallest way possible. The simplest way I can say it is; I would like the majority of the skills a job uses be from just that, the job you are using.

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Well if you read my previous post you'll see that's exactly what I'm talking about. You add more skills to the base class making it different from its job (because the job can't use them) and with all these new abilities you basically create another pool for the second job. Now you have two completely different jobs coming from the same class and as a result the class itself is a whole new mix of both but weaker. Classes are meant to have a lot more options when it comes to skills and spells compared to jobs but at the same time they can't excel at roles like jobs do.

The way i imagine the difference would be that by branching the job from a certain class there must be a lock in the skills the job can use from that class right now the jobs are using every skill because theres a relation of 1-1 but suposing a red mage will branch from thaumaturge maybe will be able to use first 2 tiers of every magic the thm has but redmage will add bio poison refresh cure and a poisona and a few gld skills at the end this job will feel a lot different from the rest

SE can always make it where some content requires a class. they can even make AF gear for a class it not is set in stone where you have no choice but to be a job 24/7.

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Originally Posted by Arkine

as for cross class abilities (which I rather not count since we should just a class by its own merit not by what it borrows from others) sure you'll probably have access to more though I think with the limitation of 30 skills on the action bar you'll eventually hit a roof and it'll be more about the quality of skills, and I think jobs will come on top in that category.

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Judging by the 2.0 UI it looks like we'll have more skills per action bar. One action bar is 12 wide and 2 high, so 3 times 24 is about 72 skills total. At least that is my theory.

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Originally Posted by lshumaker

Judging by the 2.0 UI it looks like we'll have more skills per action bar. One action bar is 12 wide and 2 high, so 3 times 24 is about 72 skills total. At least that is my theory.

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From the looks of it, one is pressing just a number (1, 2, etc.), and the row above is pressing Shift + number (S1, S2, etc.)? There could be a few different implementations from that:
- Pressing up or down changes both bars to a new preset pair of bars (double-bar rotations)
- Pressing up or down rotates through so your S bar becomes base and the bar above S becomes the new S bar (somewhat like current)
- A (Alt) and C (Control) bars can be added for up to four bars on screen (fills a lot of screen space, though) (but probably not if macros still use alt and control)
- Combinations of the above

They're also going to be adding item use to the bar (note the potions at the end), so there's going to be more than just skills taking up space. Also, there isn't really a need to limit the number of bars to just 3 anyway. It seems to be an artifact from the initial release, so they could probably change the number of bars to infinite, really.

Another thing they could do is to have more quests to unlock more job abilities, but without raising level cap at all and still limiting to choosing just 5 of those abilities to be equipped at any one time. Of course, it'll screw with the system in the future if they ever do raise the level cap, although they could just change the pre-reqs on the quests and add more slots as you level, I guess.

Don't forget that job specific weapons are now a possibility because of relics.

So - for instance - If Samurai was a 2nd job for Lancer, SAM would use Great Katana but LNC might not have access to it.

BTW, question about relics: Does anyone know if they auto-equip the job soul needed? I'm guessing that's how it works, but I haven't heard for sure.

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

Don't forget that job specific weapons are now a possibility because of relics.

So - for instance - If Samurai was a 2nd job for Lancer, SAM could use Great Katana but LNC couldn't.

BTW, question about relics: Does anyone know if they auto-equip the job soul needed? I'm guessing that's how it works, but I haven't heard for sure.

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There are probably only 3 people who speak english that can aswer you that, sadly. Does the unfinished weapons also are job-only? If so, mayhaps we can have an answer!

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Originally Posted by Arkine

Then why have classes at all if PLD75 would have so many more (I'm thinking 10 more atleast if we get 1 every 5 levels) skills than GLA75 (which will still have the same number it had at 50 and the same cross class abilities since all other classes stopped gaining skills at 50)

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Because you need to level the GLD to bring PLD to 75. SE can do it that you get for jobs every 5 level a skill quest and for classes after level 50 every 7 level a class skill.


About Yoshis idea about classes and jobs.

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As for the concept behind class-only gear, we hope to have, in the future, especially with 2.0, a larger variety of content, where you'll have very hardcore... You'll have your eight-man raids that are requiring a lot of strategy, and you'll want to have specific jobs to be able to concentrate on getting to and defeating the final boss. Yes, we'll want to concentrate on the jobs. But we'll also want to have more light, casual battle content in the future as well. And during this casual content, you'll want to be more... Maybe not as restricted to the job. You'll want to be able to have the benefits of being a class and using multiple abilities from lots of different classes. And so there isn't one argument, there isn't one right answer, that just because there's class gear... There are going to be some places where you'll want to have class gear and there will be some places you'll want to have job gear. We hope that by 2.0, there will be more content that will support both. Because currently, right now, there's really not a lot of content that's supporting that class-only gear. Hopefully it will become more defined in 2.0.

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http://www.1up.com/features/ffxiv-in...nix-fallen-mmo

The one thing I hope SE takes into account is to not make us feel forced out of one or the other, because currently that is what is happening. We have gear that is class only and job only. Now AF armor is understandable or unique abilities on pieces of gear only a job can have. On items like Gryphonskin armor set, it is class only, and for no reason at all.

SE, if you want people to embrace the idea of using class and jobs at appropriate times, you need to not limit the gear we can use for both. Right now if I wanted to balance job and classes, I would pretty much have to have two completely different armor sets. We shouldn't be limited to our gear based on class/job, we should be influenced to go to our class when it is needed. I am a Dragoon and obviously I use it when in parties, but when I want to solo something tough, obviously I want to be on Lancer because I can use much more survival abilities that makes up for the damage loss on Dragoon. There is already incentive to use classes, along with the fact that PvP is coming soon. So why feel the need to force the idea of separated gear sets? It makes no sense.

These new armor sets are considered high rank recipes for crafters and would be a balance for end game gear, why limit it to only class? I just don't get it.

SE here is a general tip. Don't ever make someone feel forced to do something. You should only influence people to balance things out between class and job.

I think your problems could be alleviated with more options in skills for the classes themselves. There's also no demand that the jobs must use the skills provided by the class, just that they have to branch off of them.

i'd like to see a merit system for jobs tbh.
the moment the jobs came out all i did was brainless questing and running around.
for stuff like Artifact armor that is fine, but i was wishing to actually unlock skills by collecting exp just for the sake of getting some progression even when u hit lvl 50.

by that they could slowly add more skills, that you could use on ur job and replace the class skills with for the sake of having a defined role.

1/4 job skills doesn't cut it for me, i want my job skills to outweight my class skills when i'm playing as a paladin i want more protective skills that paladin should be able to unlock by exping.
at some point i want my list to mainly consist of Job skills, not the other way around.
also further traits should be unlockable by exping, to give the job a proper role (enhached block rate, enmity gain, mp regeneration, healing magic potency, etc etc etc.)

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Originally Posted by Arkine

Well no, jobs already have 5 more skills, and 5 tiers more (5x5=25 + 50 = 75) you'll have in total 10 abilities more and anything a class learns the job gets too, so in a sense as long as the leveling continues the gap between a job and a class will get bigger.

as for cross class abilities (which I rather not count since we should just a class by its own merit not by what it borrows from others) sure you'll probably have access to more though I think with the limitation of 30 skills on the action bar you'll eventually hit a roof and it'll be more about the quality of skills, and I think jobs will come on top in that category.

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You can't not count cross class abilities... that is one of the biggest draws of using classes over jobs. Otherwise its like saying a thm is a blm but without the blm spells, which is completely wrong.

The math would actually be:
With the 50 cap-

Classes have 15 innate abilities, 10 cross class abilities totaling up to 25 abilities.

Jobs have 15 innate abilities, 5 cross class abilities, 5 job abilities totaling up to 25 abilities.

With a 75 cap (Assuming its one more ability every 5 levels for jobs and classes do not get anything)-

Classes would stay the same.

Jobs would have 15 innate, 5 cross class, 10 job totaling up to 30 abilities.

As for the 30 ability limit, there is no evidence that the limit will still exist in 2.0. Considering a level cap increase won't happen pre-2.0, I don't think we even need to acknowledge the limit in discussions.