G'raha focused storyline!

Hey kidz!

What's G'raha's character? He's a WoL simp! Let's make a storyline where he gets challenged and has to face his own hidden flaws - Alexandria storyline!

In Alexandria, the northernmost city of the continent of Meracydia, the Time Mages have installed a giant time nexus where the future timeline of G'raha's and our timeline are held in an infinite time matrix. Why? Because they have an ideology that states that the demise of the 8th Calamity timeline is bringing salvation to the other timeline, like a Yin Yang thing. This is obviously bs, but they have good arguments: Everything in our timeline gets good, the thousand year war of Ishgard has been solved, Garlemald the needlessly expansionist empire is gone now, the Ascians are now gone and can't do evil anymore, the tribes are becoming accepted, the world is growing together, even the First has been brought back from the brink of destruction. Since this all coincides with the time around the creation of the time fork and since the alt-timeline is slowly dying they believe things naturally balance out.

So essentially the demise of G'raha's timeline is justified because it makes our timeline cool. So when G'raha steps up to defend the WoL he gets accused of being a hypocrite, since he was ok with the WoL not saving the past when they traveled to Elpis, while he himself traveled back to actively alter the timeline to save it. G'raha defends the WoL because the world had to be sundered for them to be able to travel back and save their world. However they show him an alternative that could have been achieved for the 8UC timeline: it could have been saved as well, a small enclave of people would have survived and slowly repopulated and rebuilt the world over thousands of years - that was the original plan of the Ascians - however since all resources were dropped to build a time machine, this was no longer possible. G'raha gets accused of giving up hope and abandoning his broken people, which he has no answer to. They say it was the idea of the Warrior of Light that blinded him and he didn't actually believe that a world without them was possible. Thus he built a mental image of the WoL as a savior-figure, essentially a god without whom the world could not be saved.

This is why they say that in Alexandria everyone is a Warrior of Light. However they actually made use of G'raha and the 8UC team of mechs in order to split up the timeline, so even while flawed people can contribute and they think it's for the better anyway so they thank G'raha but he doesn't like it. As a little side quirk there is a previously unemployed sundered Ascian originally from the 8UC who now also works for the time mages. They actually handed over information to the timelords in order to prove their loyalty, because they got contacted by Emet-Selch while we were light-overloaded in ShB - Emet gave them some info about time travel he got from G'raha, which G'raha doesn't remember snitching, but Emet aether-absorbed some of the exarch's jumbled memory while torturing him or whatever he did. So that sundered Ascian, let's make her a girl for a change, deciphered the memory and turned it in after the fall of the ascians to help the time mages - they didn't actually know how time travel works. It was the 8UC guys who came up with it, the time mages were created as a result of G'raha traveling back, which allowed them to create a time bubble in which they essentially stomped Alexandria out of the ground in the image of ancient Alexandria which was destroyed by the Allagans. They built a time nexus but are only watching over the timelines and keeping them seperate, not altering them any further, which they are forbidden from. In fact if they want to cross timelines without authorization they get instakilled.

Anyway, so G'raha now has to realize that the Warrior of Light wasn't actually the means of saving everyone, which he takes like a champ. He admits that it was his idea of us and not actually us and that the idea helped him, but that rather than take us as an example he made himself small in his mind and thought he could never do what we did. He faults himself for it but doesn't linger on it or get depressed, cause everything else was real. He's still our friend and still loves us and so we go on an adventure together where he can prove himself as a force of nature or something and he treats us less like his idol and more like someone equal.

Anyway if you ask "well what happens now that we know that the 8UC could have been saved?" well G'raha also continues to ask himself that but I wouldn't make that a major story beat involving time travel and shiet - I mean there's nothing he can do about it now either. It would just be lore that ties to G'raha's past and I liked the idea of a city of time mages and to name it Alexandria because of the primal Alexander (like in FF9) , but we had enough time travel and ascian ties in the story for the time being and it would just be a place in the world that does it's thing and can stand there and just be potential for a new (possibly side) storyline somewhere down the road. The main story should focus on something totally new that would for sure involve Alexandria as a city with real people, where the time mages would of course be a force but tied to something current and new with the stuff I described here just being some neat background lore.

7.0 plot leak in this thread, but where does Krile fit in?

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

7.0 plot leak in this thread, but where does Krile fit in?

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Yeah I think it makes total sense, because what is Meracydia? Africa/Australia inspired. What is in Africa? Egypt. What is in Egypt? Alexandria. What is Alexandria in FF? City related to Alexander. What is Alexander in FFXIV? Time travel primal. People want time mage job so you can tie that to it too. Since G'raha is gonna play a role it's gonna tie to the 8UC. It's basically just following the logical steps.

Krile is difficult for me, because I want her story to be surprising, but I don't know how to surprise myself. I'd need a eureka moment to be able to divine her story. But I foresee an outfit change at least.

A Story with Krile and G'raha is a boring bad Story. I hate them both. G'raha for being a Fanboy and Krile for using, betraying the WoL and sending us Zenos at the End of all. That ruined a lot in Endwalker for me, besides Garlemald beeing destroyed behind the Scences, a blue Bird and her Sisters destroying everything. Venat became instead of a Villain a beloved God ... my mind says nooooooooo to a story about those 2.

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Originally Posted by Aneshda

and Krile for using, betraying the WoL and sending us Zenos at the End of all.

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.....what?

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

.....what?

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Krile made a promise in the WoL's Name to Zenos, that my WoL would have never ever made to him.
We fought the Endsinger and to be clear, Krile gave a shit about the WoL.
Zenos could have killed us, all that counted for her was the World.
In the End she felt even sorry that she couldn't spend more time with Venat.

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Originally Posted by Aneshda

Krile made a promise in the WoL's Name to Zenos, that my WoL would have never ever made to him.

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Whether your WoL would do something is irrelevant, because your WoL isn't canon. And whether any WoL would've agreed is irrelevant, because we weren't involved in the decision anyway.

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We fought the Endsinger and to be clear, Krile gave a shit about the WoL.

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I have no idea what that means.

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Zenos could have killed us, all that counted for her was the World.

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Leaving aside the "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" argument, she could've also just had perfect faith that we've beaten Zenos before and could do it again. Which, y'know, we do. For good this time. (I hope.)

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Leaving aside the "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" argument, she could've also just had perfect faith that we've beaten Zenos before and could do it again. Which, y'know, we do. For good this time. (I hope.)

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Krile also knows we want to do anything we can to save the world, and if that involves accepting help from Zenos and fighting him later as payment, then so be it.

(I'm still not happy that this happened, narratively, but it wouldn't even cross my mind to blame Krile for it.)

I don't mind Krile too much, but I'd rather simpboy go off and do his own thing. I can't stand him, he's my least favorite member of the group.

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Originally Posted by Aneshda

Krile made a promise in the WoL's Name to Zenos, that my WoL would have never ever made to him.

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What promise. The deal she made with him was simple - means to reach us in return for him helping us. That's the deal she made. She never promised anything on WoL's behalf, and Zenos did keep the promise to her. If you mean to imply she promised him the fight against us, that's just false. Even at the end, Zenos just says you can still walk away, it's just that rather than have option to do so, we choose the reason for why we don't.

https://i.imgur.com/nztnmWW.jpg

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Originally Posted by Heroman3003

What promise. The deal she made with him was simple - means to reach us in return for him helping us. That's the deal she made. She never promised anything on WoL's behalf, and Zenos did keep the promise to her. If you mean to imply she promised him the fight against us, that's just false. Even at the end, Zenos just says you can still walk away, it's just that rather than have option to do so, we choose the reason for why we don't.

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Well if you Watch that one Scene in German and translate it, you will see, it was a promise that she made.

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Originally Posted by Aneshda

Well if you Watch that one Scene in German and translate it, you will see, it was a promise that she made.

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If it's in German but not in English or Japanese, I would assume translator error over hidden truth.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

If it's in German but not in English or Japanese, I would assume translator error over hidden truth.

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There's been quite a few glaring examples of the English localisation leaving out or tweaking key details, some of which can be found in this particular thread:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...s-unacceptable

A number of posters - quite a few of which are fluent in at least two languages themselves - have attested to much. Some of whom you may recognise as being contributors to lore discussions to add further weight to their words.

The 8th umbral timeline isn't gone, though...


I love G'raha and we still owe G'raha a tour of Ishgard, so that's enough of a story hook for me for a patch or something. And Krile is very sweet. Dunno how someone who isn't trolling can actually hate her. lol

No thanks.

Now with 100% more borger.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

The 8th umbral timeline isn't gone, though...

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Actually, sorry to detour, but the Eighth Umbral Calamity Timeline existing is actually one of my serious questions about the overarching world building of XIV. Initially, the Eight Umbral Calamity Timeline is the only reason why we have G'raha in this timeline as the Crystal Exarch, and also ties in both Omega and Alexander has key components of the timeline, as without them, the CT can't warp/time travel. Makes sense so far.

But...how does the Black Rose > Eighth Umbral Calamity Timeline fit into Endwalker's plot? I legitimately do not know this, and if anyone would explain it to me I would really appreciate it. I actually really like G'raha Tia as the Crystal Exarch chracter, and I love the Twinning dungeon, so the Eighth Umbral Calamity Timeline has always been in the back of my head as something that is problematic with things like Elpis. Just by the nature of the WoL dying in the Black Rose timeline, doesn't this entirely break the causality loop of that entire branch? Since we can't go back in time to talk to Venat and tell her all the horrific things that are going to happen? If Venat doesn't know, then even assuming she transformed into Hydaelyn, there would be no reason to throw Emet Selch, Lahabrea, and Elidibus into that portal that prevents them from being sundered like all the rest, which directly eliminates all of XIV's major Ascian antagonists from the outset, which snowballs into altering or outright removing entire factions or empires from the plot of that timeline.

Even if we get to the point in that Tales from the Shadow story somehow, we're still a really, really bad spot, because no one knows about Endsinger due to Hermes' meddling (Which is also a problem in and of itself, since we couldn't be in Elpis, so things like Ktisis Hyperboreia, the Elpis flower cutscene, and Meteion's report just don't happen in the same way, not even sure if there would be a Kairos memory wipe for anyone except Hermes), we would still be in a situation where getting to the moon to do anything about Zodiark or I guess more prescient, Fandaniel's meddling can't happen. (Which actually might not exist at all since Allag could not exist in the same way without Ascian influence, and likewise for Garlemald.) There's no Tower of Babil teleportation device to the moon, since there wouldn't be a Fandaniel/Amon to build it, and no one even knows if there is something up there. In fact, since the Crystal Tower would also debatably not exist either with Ascian machinations and the 13th may actually avoid it's Flood of Darkness due to again, a lack of Ascian manipulation with Auracite, would there even be a Golbez threat?

Does anyone follow me on this? Is there even an Eighth Umbral Calamity Timeline under circumstances like this? Even being generous, it seems like everyone in that timeline on every shard and the Source are doomed to die simply from a lack of knowledge of the threats faced.

EDIT: If Black Rose causes the First to Rejoin, how does a potential alive WoL even get to Elpis at all? We can't go there, there wouldn't be a almost-dead Elidibus to sacrifice to get us there, etc. etc.

EDIT2: Does this also mean that Athena actually just straight up becomes a god in the Umbral Calamity Timeline and kills literally everyone, even if Endsinger doesn't show up? Or does everyone just die or remain trapped in Pandemonium?

?????????????????????

EDIT3: Make this or something like the OP into the G'raha plot, some of these events are foundational to the story/timeline staying consistent, I have no idea what is happening over there, and the fact that G'raha pretty much knew all of his comrades over the course of the unknown decades to build the CT teleportation apparatus are saccing themselves for this one shot, only for that whole timeline to be subject to unknowable threats outside of Black Rose, is a fairly engaging hook for his character. How does he cope with the survivor's guilt from a doomed timeline? It would actually make more sense if after G'raha jumped timelines, that he told his story, and once things were changed, literally the entire universe auto-corrected the Eighth Umbral Calamity Timeline out of existence, outside of things like the Twinning and G'raha himself, which were forced onto the First. Killing Ironworks Alexander (as it was malfunctioning, probably because of the inherent impossibility of maintaining the causality loop, idfk) probably should have just mind-wiped everyone, and retconned the Eighth Umbral Calamity Timeline out of the universal timeline.

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Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei

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https://media.tenor.com/stmRA2CsDPgAAAAd/gon-hx-h.gif

I love time travel.

My theory is that time travel in this game runs on multiverse theory. Changing the past doesn't destroy the existing timeline, it makes a new parallel one. This would explain why we keep being told we can't change the past. Technically, we can, but it won't matter for us, since we'll end up back in our own timeline where the changes didn't happen anyway. Unless it's a closed loop (the time travel was already part of the past, like Alexander or Elpis, we just didn't know about it), in which case we're not actually changing anything anyway, we're just doing what already happened.

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Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei

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Oh, they're 100% screwed. No WoL, no Scions, the ascian still alive, and nobody know the truth about meteion. Imo the only option for her is to tell Emet and Elidibus, but at that point, I don't blame them for not trusting her.

Now, as for how that timeline fits into EW plot, while the writer never confirms it, the closest guess we can take is that 8UC timeline share the same past as us (after all it's supposed to be the "main" timeline).

So I guess it's like this:

When we go back to the past, it affect both timeline (1 and 2), despite that 2 doesn't have any way to go back to the past for the reasons you have stated. And since venat has learned about our adventure in the First and that it's pretty much the only reason why we can go back to the past, at all, it's logical to assume that she let g'raha did his own thing to ensure our timeline (and time travel technology) were created.

In conclusion, it feels like 8UC timeline is part of her plan, just as her sparing emet for Ascian reason. Now, the writers did say that she only intended to spare Emet and lahabrea+elidibus manage to escape purely by chance. This could read as her not wanting to calamities to happen (as Emet alone probably won't be able to rejoin the shards himself), but I disagree.


Edit: aw the format got scrambled :(

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

My theory is that time travel in this game runs on multiverse theory. Changing the past doesn't destroy the existing timeline, it makes a new parallel one. This would explain why we keep being told we can't change the past. Technically, we can, but it won't matter for us, since we'll end up back in our own timeline where the changes didn't happen anyway. Unless it's a closed loop (the time travel was already part of the past, like Alexander or Elpis, we just didn't know about it), in which case we're not actually changing anything anyway, we're just doing what already happened.

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That is exactly how it works, with the exception that we don't end up back in the old timeline if we change things. (G'raha's presence in our timeline now being proof that the timeline-breaker doesn't get pulled back to their old timeline.)

The timeline splits if you go back to the past and alter it to a point that your original timeline can't happen any more, with one branch being the old timeline and the other being the changed timeline with you riding along in it.

But if you go back to the past and keep things as they were (or only change things that can be absorbed into the single timeline as it is) then it doesn't split and you get a stable time loop.

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Edit to add: We don't "keep getting told we can't change the past" – we got told that once by Elidibus, but that was half speculation that you probably won't be able to interact with people in Elpis as an aetherial wisp, and half warning: if you can interact with people, you mustn't try to change events because they already happened in the past of this world that you live in and are trying to save. Nothing you can do will actually erase those events, any more than G'raha's actions erased the fact that people lived through the Eighth Calamity in the other timeline.

Meanwhile, other time travel plots say nothing about an inability to change the past, but rather hinge on the possibility of it being done. In Alexander, once you get beyond the loop caused by Backrix's lost journal, the danger at the climax is that the Illuminati are trying to go back in time and change events to their benefit. In Shadowbringers, everything relies on your success in changing the outcome of (from G'raha's perspective) a known historical event.

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Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei

But...how does the Black Rose > Eighth Umbral Calamity Timeline fit into Endwalker's plot? I legitimately do not know this, and if anyone would explain it to me I would really appreciate it. [...] Just by the nature of the WoL dying in the Black Rose timeline, doesn't this entirely break the causality loop of that entire branch? Since we can't go back in time to talk to Venat?

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This gets asked a lot but there's actually a really simple answer, because the timeline only splits apart at the point where G'raha meddles with it in Shadowbringers. At the time of our visit to Elpis, there is only one timeline, and a WoL from one branch of the split timeline comes to visit.

The WoL from the Eighth Umbral Calamity timeline never visits Elpis and never needs to. The history of the world as they know it includes their future-alternate-timeline self setting things in motion.

All the events form one big unending time loop with no clear triggering incident; they simply all happen. We visit Elpis, setting events in motion. Events follow through all the way to Shadowbringers where the timeline splits, with events in one of those branches paving the way for the other branch to exist simultaneous with it, and the time loop continues unbroken, allowing it to reach the point where we travel to Elpis and close the loop.

Meanwhile, in that other timeline, they get to the events of An Unpromised Future. Hydaelyn does know about Meteion and can plainly see that the events you described to her have gone off the rails. If you told her about G'raha coming from an alternate timeline, she has probably worked out that she is in it.

Either way, the only reason she kept secrets from you was to keep the time loop on track and ensure that you would not know things "too early" before you get to Elpis. With the loop already broken and the WoL dead, she will need to find a new champion and this time she is free to reveal the entire story to them.

Additionally, since the WoL died in that timeline, they almost certainly did not defeat Emet-Selch or Elidibus, so those two are still running the Ascian agenda (making plans for the Ninth Calamity no doubt), Fandaniel is still in check and Zodiark is still shielding the planet from Meteion's influence. All things considered, the situation is entirely different to the Source's and could be taken in any direction you narratively want it to go.