remove stuns

removes stuns

yep cc is never fun. if you think stuns are bad here try out diablo 4. i dunno what devs are thinking these days.

Sure, but then you'll have to explain to me how you keep the mode interesting and actually even secure kills beyond chasing after people on low HP all across the universe...

Would be funny to see people go full chicken without their stuns, they'll be forced to actually play good. lmao

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Originally Posted by Valence

Sure, but then you'll have to explain to me how you keep the mode interesting and actually even secure kills beyond chasing after people on low HP all across the universe...

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This.

If A isn't good, but you can't produce a better replacement (including just from the state of the game Without A), remember that yes, it can almost certainly get worse than A.

Gone? No. limit max cc applicable within a set window? Yes.

You have to elaborate on what you mean bro. Post just be looking like bait rn.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

Gone? No. limit max cc applicable within a set window? Yes.

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Gonna say no. If the opposing team is coordinated well enough to stun lock you or something such that coordination should be rewarded..

If I recall there are ways to counter stuns /cc and even gain immunity from them. So that can help.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Gonna say no. If the opposing team is coordinated well enough to stun lock you or something such that coordination should be rewarded..

If I recall there are ways to counter stuns /cc and even gain immunity from them. So that can help.

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It's a problem of how certain ones play with each other and not every match up has the same amount of cc since it's just random matching. For instance if you get Miracle'd then stunned in a certain spacing purify does not appear as available during the stun despite the miracle having ended. Getting hit with 5 typed of CC back to back when your team has 2-3 also feels really bad. Fetter ward use to take care of these issues and should see a return.

MoM is an aberration that cannot be used as an example of why every CC should be nerfed.

We could get some nerfs on cc, namely duration, recast, stronger purify, or other things, but i'm strongly against anything that is about cc resistances or diminishing returns that would have to be tracked painfully on each target bar, which isn't realistic at all.

Purify cleansing something is already doing what Fetter Ward did. If you're out of Purify, then you're out of Fetter Ward, simple as that. Maybe you should not engage that mindlessly when it's not back up. Maybe Purify could be turned into Fetter Ward instead. Maybe Purify could have a shorter cd, idk. My real problem with Purify right now is how long it takes to spamm the button, cleanse something, then start saving your skin. I see some players that get an instant cleanse happen at top ranking somehow, and I have no idea how that happens, literally none. Maybe I have something wrong on my setup, I don't know, but it takes time.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Sure, but then you'll have to explain to me how you keep the mode interesting and actually even secure kills beyond chasing after people on low HP all across the universe...

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Might help to reduce defensive/evasive actions if they remove stuns. Give everyone only one or two ways to escape besides having a bunch of options to save skin.

I'm all for removing stuns because it is boooring.

But then what tactical depth is left?

...why.

Ok rant warning - do any of you even understand that when something actually is REMOVED rather than adjusted it has an infinitely harder time to come back if the change turns out negative? I'm so tired of these garbage opinions asking for removal, especially if it is as shortsighted and context-free as from OP. Like for f***'s sake, it took us forever to get certain skills like Bulwark back for PvE, imagine PvP. THINK before writing.

You want CC adjustments, ask for:
- All Jobs Action: Fetter Ward aka Resilience but pre-emptive
- CC type resist after suffering it once or twice, especially in FL, especially knockback/drawin

would prefer slows and roots as the majority of crowd control over full stuns in CC

I've always been not extremely hot for the return of Fetter Ward for multiple reasons, but on the other hand it also solves some problems.

+ It removes the insufferable delay it takes to press purify: take the average human reaction time which is approx 1s, then add the time to press the button, then add whatever latency the player has, which sometimes means at least half of the cc duration has already happened in the meantime, which makes it a relatively bad design on its own. I also see high end players getting insta cleansed and I find it very sus. Overall, it gets rid of this, which I like.
- It adds more to the "stay glued to enemy party list 110% of the time" if you have to constantly browse their icons to see if they have the Fetter Ward buff. I'll admit that current Purify also produces this problem, but to a lesser extent.
- It removes player skill, as much as counter intuitive as this may sound, it's a lot easier to just rely on your window of invulnerability that you pop beforehand, do your burst and things during it, and then zoom out. If you tell me that it can just stay a 5s immunity like current Purify, then people are going to cry all the same that it's not enough, especially when use preemptively (you already lose half the time before you actually start getting into the fray and doing your thing). Current Purify has a higher skill level because it's completely rng, you never know exactly if you're going to get CCed and when.
- I actually suspect people are going to mald even more about Fetter Ward (unless you get it on top of Purify, which is another can of worms), for the simple reason that if you get CCed before you can even use it, you're doomed ala Miracle of Nature.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I've always been not extremely hot for the return of Fetter Ward for multiple reasons, but on the other hand it also solves some problems.

+ It removes the insufferable delay it takes to press purify: take the average human reaction time which is approx 1s, then add the time to press the button, then add whatever latency the player has, which sometimes means at least half of the cc duration has already happened in the meantime, which makes it a relatively bad design on its own. I also see high end players getting insta cleansed and I find it very sus. Overall, it gets rid of this, which I like.
- It adds more to the "stay glued to enemy party list 110% of the time" if you have to constantly browse their icons to see if they have the Fetter Ward buff. I'll admit that current Purify also produces this problem, but to a lesser extent.
- It removes player skill, as much as counter intuitive as this may sound, it's a lot easier to just rely on your window of invulnerability that you pop beforehand, do your burst and things during it, and then zoom out. If you tell me that it can just stay a 5s immunity like current Purify, then people are going to cry all the same that it's not enough, especially when use preemptively (you already lose half the time before you actually start getting into the fray and doing your thing). Current Purify has a higher skill level because it's completely rng, you never know exactly if you're going to get CCed and when.
- I actually suspect people are going to mald even more about Fetter Ward (unless you get it on top of Purify, which is another can of worms), for the simple reason that if you get CCed before you can even use it, you're doomed ala Miracle of Nature.

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Fair points of criticism. Ill admit, just a plain addition with no changes to the rest of all abilities would cause a lot of problems. If anything Id prefer seeing it in an update that would expand job kits further back to 16 buttons total (excluding sprint) like they did with 5.1 PvP.

This update should introduce one global action "Fetter Ward" and three job specific actions for each job that would help jobs define their niches better, improve survival by adding other defensives like Reprisal or expand on potential depth of their damage kit.

To explain my desire for Fetter Ward, I am wishing for a pre-emptive CC prevention to exist that isn't Guard, promoting potentially more aggressive plays. To circumvent people just camping until its back though, cooldown should be between 45-60s with a 5-6s duration. This is where new tools would come in to deal with immune enemies.

At least remove stun locks. This chain stunning crap has got to go.

So, if you remove stuns entirely and also limit movement abilities, 1 of 2 things will happen:

1) Stuns get removed and movement abilities get limited, nothing else changes. Melee will now pop sprint, hit someone exactly once, then never land another hit until their movement ability comes back up again, because everyone has permanent sprint on a toggle.

2) Stuns get removed and movement abilities get limited, to help melee jobs, they now gain sprint-speed chase capabilities on one of their skills. Now melee can harass your backline even more effectively and have a much easier time escaping being punished for overextending.

Well if there were more aoe abilities to counter that, it might balance. One example, make Warden's Paeon and aoe :3

Yes, lets remove a feature designed to secure kills in a mode with a spammable heal button.

Removing stuns would lead to securing kills becoming a chore, or we remove recup as well and everyone just blows up and the entire mode just turns into chaos with no real thought process.

Server tick rate issues aside, the entire point of CC is to force players to utilize their CD's wisely and to pay attention to their positioning on the map. If you dive into a pile and then mindless burn your purify then that is on you. Play smarter and stuns become less of an issue.

Side note:
If you're referring to FL... I do not care. For the 1 millionth time, asking for a mode with 72 players to have any semblance of balance is just stupid.

i don't care what anyone else has said.

remove stuns.

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Originally Posted by Buzuru

i don't care what anyone else has said.

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Then that kind of defeats the point of posting here, no?

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Originally Posted by Buzuru

i don't care what anyone else has said.

remove stuns.

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If you're looking for an echo chamber go to twitter. Threads aren't a place for posting unpopular takes and proceeding to not provide any counterpoints to our arguments.

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Originally Posted by Buzuru

i don't care what anyone else has said.

remove stuns.

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Knew this post was bait...

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Originally Posted by Buzuru

i don't care what anyone else has said.

remove stuns.

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based af ,

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

Fetter ward use to take care of these issues and should see a return.

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I'd really love to see the old Fetter Ward effect somewhat folded into Purify, personally. For two major reasons:

One, it'd add some depth to the button in that you can preemptively Purify in order to guarantee your combo at the expense of not having it available as a defensive option. It's a small thing but it would bump up the individual skill ceiling just a touch, which is always a welcome sort of change to me. And if five seconds of on-demand CC immunity is too potent, it could be reworked into something like 3s baseline immunity that is buffed to 5s when used to cleanse a debuff.

Two, the amount of times I've managed to press Purify 0.01 seconds after the server has registered a debuff falling off (and thus been punished with zero immunity against the subsequent lethal chain CC) is a little painful. Partially a skill issue, absolutely, but also largely a netcode issue that could be alleviated somewhat with a slightly more generous Fetter Ward effect. Using the same "3s baseline, 5s when cleansing" approach would also discourage mistiming a Purify and keep some element of skill issue punishment intact, if you're really into that.

I'm still staunchly convinced that turning Purify from reactive to preemptive would actually lower skill expression, because it's not exactly hard to just press the button just before a burst, go in and do your thing unimpeded, then go out once it's over. Can't exactly say the same about a reactive button, you're at the mercy of whatever the enemy is about to do, where and when and you don't control it, however you can try and predict it, and position more carefully, which induces a lot more skill expression.

Fetter Ward on the other hand is just a godmode button that has very little counters but a gigantic burst to repel the person using it. I can already predict 110% that at crystal level, you'll never get any punishing kill anymore against harassers. Even in diam and lower actually. As a side effect, this would also outright demolish ranged dps jobs.

The only thing I don't like with current Purify is the time it takes to cleanse/use it which already accounts for half the duration of most CCs.

I agree with your sentiment to an extent, and I'm sure that's why SE has chosen to implement Purify in its current state as a purely defensive tool. Giving Fetter Ward to harassers would undoubtedly be pretty strong.

To play devil's advocate though, Purify as it currently exists isn't exactly hard to press either. Got stunned/silenced/movement impeded? Press Purify. You can argue that there's nuance in choosing to hold it and eat the full duration of CC, but that decision wouldn't be lessened by adding a Fetter effect. You mention prediction and positioning as forms of skill expression, which I agree with, but you could just as easily apply the argument to being on the receiving end of harassers. Position more carefully and LoS them, and/or use your Guard until after their CC immunity ends so you can kite them while they're vulnerable. "Gigantic burst" would probably be a much more viable means of countering Fetter in the current iteration of PvP as well since healers can't burst heal allies to full to counteract it, and harassers would need to trade precious seconds of CC immunity mashing recup to survive. Getting a punishment kill on a harasser would also be strictly easier since, assuming they didn't Purify a debuff (and no one wasted CC on the active Fetter), that's one more available CC tool at your disposal for stunning and killing them the moment their debuff immunity wears off.

You cannot position more carefully and LOS harassers if they have free reign and the superior mobility, unhindered by a buff making them invulnerable to CC. It's already a pain in the current state of the game where they can be CCed...

If you make Fetter Ward short in duration, then everybody will say that it's useless because it protects for 5s, of which half will be spent actually activating the skill and diving in, and they'll be right, because that's essentially what current Purify does after cleansing something (which is designed to leave you some room to get away, not to dive in). On top of it, Fetter Ward didn't cleanse CC in the past, so if it doesn't, getting CCed will essentially means you're Miracle of Nature'd, so possibly screwed or promised to chain CC with your Fetter Ward sitting unused.

If you make it longer, then it's essentially as I described, just press the button, dive in, do your burst or attempt to kill a cripple, and dive out once the buff fades away.

"Gigantic bursts" are already how to deal with harassers, because the actually good ones will rarely expose themselves naked (out of guard and purify), so they'll always have guard and purify ready. The only way to delete them is to delete them faster than they can mitigate damage once their guard is out, and try to take advantage of the time it takes them to purify the first CC they eat, or especially CC them right when they're the most vulnerable (like for example a MNK just before they resolve Riddle of Earth). If you remove the need for purify, they gain precious seconds to zoom away whenever they please, which is a buff to their impunity.

I suppose where we disagree is whether a job would be capable of diving in, comboing/killing, and then escaping all in a three second window or not. I personally doubt such a length of time would give any job enough time to zoom away after the fact, and they'd in fact be left fairly vulnerable which is where the individual risk vs. reward element comes into play. If a competent melee player needs to save guard and purify to guarantee their survival, then having to burn one of those offensively would surely create a window of opportunity to kill them, no? Especially if you position in such a way that their commitment separates them from their team and denies them backup.

I don't intend to belabor the point though; I'm fully willing to concede that you could be right and know better than I do. We just don't know how these things would actually shake out in application, and we could be here all day talking hypothetical.

What I can agree with you on with absolute certainty is that the button could stand to be much more responsive. Half of the reason I even suggest the 'mini-Purify' on non-debuff press is to address the fringe cases where bad netcode makes your usage register after a debuff has already fallen off, resulting in a complete waste. Giving Purify some extra charity via a lessened-but-guaranteed effect would alleviate the issue without detracting too much from its intended usage; it just also happens to open the whole "offensive Purify" can of worms since that would be a natural byproduct of such a band-aid. If SE addressed the netcode or made Purify apply faster, that'd be great and I'd be completely satisfied with Purify in its current form. But knowing SE's track record with netcode related issues, I'm not holding my breath.

I think you're basing yourself on unrealistic scenari where the good divers will get targeted immediately by the whole of the enemy team because they leroyed stupidly into the stack.

Most of the good players wait for opportunities to present themselves and one of the biggest mitigators you can have against them is an instant CC, even if it gets purified, because it gives you time to take a bit of distance (even if they can gap close back), and it will break their burst/combo enough to be disruptive. Being able to CC at the correct time can also delay them going away whenever your team decides to notice and help you, so if you're able to gain those precious seconds where they're trying to purify and go away, or better, if they have already purified a first CC when engaging, then you have a chance to punish them hard. Another problem is usually that ranged players are left to fend for themselves most of the time for the simple reason that melees are either busy tanking, or harassing elsewhere. You're often left with other ranged or healers to help you, and that's also not always a given, the problem also being that our bursts are NOT on demand like melees, and in fact they tend to suck kinda. It can get incredibly hard to punish a harasser, at best you'll peel them off if there is multiples of you.

With Fetter Ward it's just a matter of watching a timer. If you dont get a kill during the timer, just bail.

Another issue I see is that not only it would help melee harassers, but it would totally ruin ranged DPS furthermore because frankly as a ranged DPS (except on RDM) I couldn't care less about Fetter Ward. Purify is way better.

I don't know if I know better or not. I may be a crystal player but I'm not a top player, there is miles between me and them. I could see why people would like Fetter Ward on melees, but as a ranged player, this is absolute cancer in my mind for both roles.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Yes, lets remove a feature designed to secure kills in a mode with a spammable heal button.

Removing stuns would lead to securing kills becoming a chore, or we remove recup as well and everyone just blows up and the entire mode just turns into chaos with no real thought process.

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That's basically what PvP was before the rework, a mindless slugfest that dragged on until one team's healers ran out of MP.