Linear, linear, linear

It looks increasingly clear, with the release of FF16 and the current design trend of FF14, that CBU3 is only capable of creating linear corridors.

Maybe they need to hire some interns from Bethesda.

Let me tell you something that isn't linear, bear attacks, they're no joke. I mean, you're out there in the wilderness, right? You're in their home. It's not like they're coming into your living room, knocking over your TV and raiding your fridge. No, you're stepping into their world. And these creatures, they're majestic, but they're also terrifying. They're like nature's perfect killing machine, but they're not doing it because they're evil or something. They're just trying to survive, just like you and me.

Now, some people, they'll tell you, 'Oh, just play dead, the bear will leave you alone.' But let me tell you something, that's not always the case. You play dead with a grizzly, maybe it works. But you play dead with a black bear, it might just start eating you. It's not about comfort, it's about understanding the situation, the struggle, the reality of nature. It's about respect, man.

And that's what it's all about, right? Respect. Respect for the power and the beauty of nature, but also the danger. It's like life, man. It's not supposed to be comfortable all the time. You're supposed to struggle, to face challenges, to push yourself. That's how you grow. That's how you learn. So, next time you're out there in the woods, remember that. Respect the bears, respect nature, and respect yourself.

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Originally Posted by drtasteyummy

Let me tell you something that isn't linear, bear attacks, they're no joke. I mean, you're out there in the wilderness, right? You're in their home. It's not like they're coming into your living room, knocking over your TV and raiding your fridge. No, you're stepping into their world. And these creatures, they're majestic, but they're also terrifying. They're like nature's perfect killing machine, but they're not doing it because they're evil or something. They're just trying to survive, just like you and me.

Now, some people, they'll tell you, 'Oh, just play dead, the bear will leave you alone.' But let me tell you something, that's not always the case. You play dead with a grizzly, maybe it works. But you play dead with a black bear, it might just start eating you. It's not about comfort, it's about understanding the situation, the struggle, the reality of nature. It's about respect, man.

And that's what it's all about, right? Respect. Respect for the power and the beauty of nature, but also the danger. It's like life, man. It's not supposed to be comfortable all the time. You're supposed to struggle, to face challenges, to push yourself. That's how you grow. That's how you learn. So, next time you're out there in the woods, remember that. Respect the bears, respect nature, and respect yourself.

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Nice even the forums are more nonlinear than Cbu3 games

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Originally Posted by TheDecay

It looks increasingly clear, with the release of FF16 and the current design trend of FF14, that CBU3 is only capable of creating linear corridors.

Maybe they need to hire some interns from Bethesda.

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This is, frankly, entirely an "us" issue (as in the players). They used to create dungeons with multiple paths, optional side areas, etc.. What did we the playerbase do? Find which path was "optimal" for the fastest clear, and completely ignore anything that was optional. Case in point - every single ARR dungeon I played, the only way I ever got the map completion achievements for them (which involves exploring all of those side paths) was to queue as the tank and insist on going to them. This isn't about SE. This is what we did as players when they created non-linear content. I'm not surprised at all that SE simply started designing the content the way we insisted on playing it anyway.

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Originally Posted by drtasteyummy

Let me tell you something that isn't linear, bear attacks, they're no joke. I mean, you're out there in the wilderness, right? You're in their home. It's not like they're coming into your living room, knocking over your TV and raiding your fridge. No, you're stepping into their world. And these creatures, they're majestic, but they're also terrifying. They're like nature's perfect killing machine, but they're not doing it because they're evil or something. They're just trying to survive, just like you and me.

Now, some people, they'll tell you, 'Oh, just play dead, the bear will leave you alone.' But let me tell you something, that's not always the case. You play dead with a grizzly, maybe it works. But you play dead with a black bear, it might just start eating you. It's not about comfort, it's about understanding the situation, the struggle, the reality of nature. It's about respect, man.

And that's what it's all about, right? Respect. Respect for the power and the beauty of nature, but also the danger. It's like life, man. It's not supposed to be comfortable all the time. You're supposed to struggle, to face challenges, to push yourself. That's how you grow. That's how you learn. So, next time you're out there in the woods, remember that. Respect the bears, respect nature, and respect yourself.

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Good life lesson honestly.

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Originally Posted by drtasteyummy

Let me tell you something that isn't linear, bear attacks, they're no joke. I mean, you're out there in the wilderness, right? You're in their home. It's not like they're coming into your living room, knocking over your TV and raiding your fridge. No, you're stepping into their world. And these creatures, they're majestic, but they're also terrifying. They're like nature's perfect killing machine, but they're not doing it because they're evil or something. They're just trying to survive, just like you and me.

Now, some people, they'll tell you, 'Oh, just play dead, the bear will leave you alone.' But let me tell you something, that's not always the case. You play dead with a grizzly, maybe it works. But you play dead with a black bear, it might just start eating you. It's not about comfort, it's about understanding the situation, the struggle, the reality of nature. It's about respect, man.

And that's what it's all about, right? Respect. Respect for the power and the beauty of nature, but also the danger. It's like life, man. It's not supposed to be comfortable all the time. You're supposed to struggle, to face challenges, to push yourself. That's how you grow. That's how you learn. So, next time you're out there in the woods, remember that. Respect the bears, respect nature, and respect yourself.

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https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...90/081/f79.png

The easiest way to avoid getting mauled by a bear is to bring a slower friend along who's prone to tripping.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

The easiest way to avoid getting mauled by a bear is to bring a slower friend along who's prone to tripping.

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Elderly people are good for such a use. Oh did I say that...oops.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

The easiest way to avoid getting mauled by a bear is to bring a slower friend along who's prone to tripping.

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Dang it, this why all my friends invite me for hikes. I thought they just enjoyed my company, but no just for bear fodder.

Probably because every "alternate" path would usually be a dead end with a dinky ahh potion or straigjt up vendor trash for a reward.

No extra bosses, no hidden objectives that gives extra rewards when fulfilled (gil, minions, orchestrion rolls, glamours, something), is it any wonder players started taking the path of least resistance? If anyone is to blame, it's SE being SE and throwing the baby out with the bath water instead of finding a way to feasibly accomodate both players that are willing to explore the dungeon they're in, and the ones trying to set an any% world record speedrun in Sastasha.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

This is, frankly, entirely an "us" issue (as in the players). They used to create dungeons with multiple paths, optional side areas, etc.. What did we the playerbase do? Find which path was "optimal" for the fastest clear, and completely ignore anything that was optional. Case in point - every single ARR dungeon I played, the only way I ever got the map completion achievements for them (which involves exploring all of those side paths) was to queue as the tank and insist on going to them. This isn't about SE. This is what we did as players when they created non-linear content. I'm not surprised at all that SE simply started designing the content the way we insisted on playing it anyway.

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That's understandable in MMORPG, but people don't meta game single player games like that, especially on the first playthrough. Open world, branching dungeons, elemental resistances and similar systems will be taken advantages of or minmaxed, but in single player games, it doesn't matter, you're not peer pressured, if you find some cool stuff you can do or cool places you can go, then just do it.

FF16 already has those easy mode rings or whatever, and it's up to you if you want to use them or play the game properly. If people truly want to metagame 16, they would just use them, but that's not the case for majority of players, they do want to play the game. Which is why you can't just put FFXIV and other FFs into the same basket, FFXIV has reasons why everything is so linear, and other FFs just don't have any excuses and should do better. After all, what's the point of RPG when you have so little choices? Why won't you make movie or some show instead?

Funny enough, I remember the exact same thing being complained with ff13. Which to be fair, it's totally warranted. Gone are the days of exploration in JRPGs apparently :(

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Originally Posted by Striker44

This is, frankly, entirely an "us" issue (as in the players). They used to create dungeons with multiple paths, optional side areas, etc.. What did we the playerbase do? Find which path was "optimal" for the fastest clear, and completely ignore anything that was optional. Case in point - every single ARR dungeon I played, the only way I ever got the map completion achievements for them (which involves exploring all of those side paths) was to queue as the tank and insist on going to them. This isn't about SE. This is what we did as players when they created non-linear content. I'm not surprised at all that SE simply started designing the content the way we insisted on playing it anyway.

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But then you could say that it's SE's fault for not putting anything interesting in the optional paths that motivates people to deviate.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

Probably because every "alternate" path would usually be a dead end with a dinky ahh potion or straigjt up vendor trash for a reward.

No extra bosses, no hidden objectives that gives extra rewards when fulfilled (gil, minions, orchestrion rolls, glamours, something), is it any wonder players started taking the path of least resistance? If anyone is to blame, it's SE being SE and throwing the baby out with the bath water instead of finding a way to feasibly accomodate both players that are willing to explore the dungeon they're in, and the ones trying to set an any% world record speedrun in Sastasha.

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Hauke Manor comes to mind. Forget getting all the keys, don't explore upstairs. Just kill the final boss and be done with it.

People use to for extra gear...but we level soooo fast now that the effort and time to get it is dwarfed by just doing the dungeon and reaching the next dungeon in what feels like a couple of moments.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

But then you could say that it's SE's fault for not putting anything interesting in the optional paths that motivates people to deviate.

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Wouldn't really matter what they put there. Sooner or later, people would just ignore it to get the content over with. Dungeon gear isn't incentive enough, because it doesn't last long enough to be worth the effort; minions, mounts, and other collectibles are one-and-done, so nobody cares to keep going for them again and again (and if they're tradeable, they'd either be some low RNG chance of dropping, or guaranteed drops that won't hold value for long, so it still wouldn't be worth it); experience, gil, tomes, and materia are easily acquired from so many other sources that it'd be pointless; and, as criterion dungeons show, just having more interesting fights isn't enough for people to care if the rewards aren't worthwhile.

It's really just an inherent flaw in daily repeatable content. Eventually, people just want to get it done fast, optional stuff be damned.

Fine Wax used to be quite valuable and a reason to farm Haukke Manor. Not sure it is any more.

FFX16 has some fairly open areas once you get deeper in the game. I am about 7-8 hours in and just hit [REDACTED] which feels about as open as the XIV overworld areas. There are side quests, and lots of obvious items and slightly more hidden chests scattered around the towns and landscapes to explore. Sure, if you mainline MSQ you can just keep going in a straight line forever, but where's the fun in that? So I've been poking around, taking wrong turns, trying to see if I can go up ladders or fall off cliffs into rivers.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

which feels about as open as the XIV overworld areas

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Are you sure that's a good thing? FF14 is an MMO. A single player game's open world elements should be far more organic and open than that of an MMO, which has constraints due to technology and the need for multiplayer.

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Originally Posted by TheDecay

It looks increasingly clear, with the release of FF16 and the current design trend of FF14, that CBU3 is only capable of creating linear corridors.

Maybe they need to hire some interns from Bethesda.

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Beth, like SE, used to be great.......

...Now its Fromsoft & Take-Two.

SE is still riding the XIV-WoW wave, which is dangerous because the majority of them went back to WoW.

WoW doing what it did for XIV only solidifies it as the best MMO ever, because it made XIV the "Best" mmo ever for a moment (WoW still trash tho....to me....).

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Originally Posted by Bunnycake

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...90/081/f79.png

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Oh I absolutely WOULD!

It's a single player game meant to tell a story. I don't mind it being linear vs our mmorpg tbh. Some side quests are interesting, while others are lacking. I've already counted dozens of comparisons to XIV in how your character turns in quests, some of the sound effects, the story structure and layout in just my 13 hours of play. It's starting to get really funny.

SE games being hallway simulators has been an ongoing joke since 13.

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Originally Posted by TheDecay

Are you sure that's a good thing? FF14 is an MMO. A single player game's open world elements should be far more organic and open than that of an MMO, which has constraints due to technology and the need for multiplayer.

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Open worlds are only fun if there's a sandbox element to them, and XVI does not have that. The reason TotK has been a blast has been because the open world does have those necessary tools for just derping around. They made a deliberately conscious decision with XVI to not have that, in favor of Serious Narrative.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Wouldn't really matter what they put there. Sooner or later, people would just ignore it to get the content over with. Dungeon gear isn't incentive enough, because it doesn't last long enough to be worth the effort; minions, mounts, and other collectibles are one-and-done, so nobody cares to keep going for them again and again (and if they're tradeable, they'd either be some low RNG chance of dropping, or guaranteed drops that won't hold value for long, so it still wouldn't be worth it); experience, gil, tomes, and materia are easily acquired from so many other sources that it'd be pointless; and, as criterion dungeons show, just having more interesting fights isn't enough for people to care if the rewards aren't worthwhile.

It's really just an inherent flaw in daily repeatable content. Eventually, people just want to get it done fast, optional stuff be damned.

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That sounds like the solution to me actually. Maybe instead of stuff that's one and done, either give the dungeon random elements on each entry to force people to have to figure things out every time or... add buffs to the optional paths.

The second one could be interesting. Imagine if optional paths in dungeons could give you buffs that could speed up the dungeon somehow. It would actually be worth it and you'd have a decision to make each dungeon. Do you just go through it in the most straight forward braindead way or do you try your best to clear as fast as possible.

Weak bait, if you go to the other extreme you can also see open worlds which are super empty. Overall it is not even as problematic as it is made out to be.

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Originally Posted by TheDecay

It looks increasingly clear, with the release of FF16 and the current design trend of FF14, that CBU3 is only capable of creating linear corridors.

Maybe they need to hire some interns from Bethesda.

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Hell no. Keep Bugthesdas hands far away. Oh and 16 is absolutely amazing. You keep spending your life focusing on the negatives in your head though if it makes you happy kiddo.

Linear designs don't really bother me.

Not being a franchise fan so I've never played a FF title other this XIV, how does XVI compare to the previous games when it comes to main story and zone design?

If it's more or less the same as what franchise fans expect in those aspects (I know that the real time combat is a break away from the usual turn based combat), then I don't see why you're complaining.

Also, not every game needs to be a massive open world sandbox to explore on top of the story focused content. Sure, I loved most of the single player Elder Scrolls titles when it comes to being able to explore the world (Daggerfall was annoying) but that doesn't mean I want every RPG I play to be like them.

The important question is whether players are enjoying a game for what it is rather than nitpick over what it isn't.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

This is, frankly, entirely an "us" issue (as in the players). They used to create dungeons with multiple paths, optional side areas, etc.. What did we the playerbase do? Find which path was "optimal" for the fastest clear, and completely ignore anything that was optional. Case in point - every single ARR dungeon I played, the only way I ever got the map completion achievements for them (which involves exploring all of those side paths) was to queue as the tank and insist on going to them. This isn't about SE. This is what we did as players when they created non-linear content. I'm not surprised at all that SE simply started designing the content the way we insisted on playing it anyway.

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Hell no, just because players like to minmax you dont start design are boring game. WoW players are one of the most min-maxing crowed amongst MMO players at least and Blizzard didnt stop designing open dungeons just because some players map out the fastest path. Stop excusing their lazy design with "but its the players fault!"

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Originally Posted by Shinkuno

Hell no, just because players like to minmax you dont start design are boring game. WoW players are one of the most min-maxing crowed amongst MMO players at least and Blizzard didnt stop designing open dungeons just because some players map out the fastest path. Stop excusing their lazy design with "but its the players fault!"

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Actually, try going back and reading old WoW dev interviews. Players preferring only the most optimal path through a dungeon is exactly why they stopped creating the Sunken Temples, Maraudons and Blackrock Depths.

It was indeed the fault of the player base. Development teams get a lot of pressure to cut costs and when only 2% of players are engaging with content on a regular basis, guess what's going to get cut first. It's the stuff that the majority of players are ignoring.

You did know that WoW almost lost raiding altogether toward the end of The Burning Crusade, didn't you? Executive management didn't like that only 2% of the player base was completing the raids. They felt it was a waste of money that should be spent on content a larger part of the player base would do and were pressuring the development team to redirect the manpower to other content development. That's why the diversity of raid difficulties was added in Wrath and expanded on even more during later expansions. It was to get more players into raiding so the developers wouldn't be forced to cut it from the game. It almost backfired when they tried to move raiding back to more difficult in Cataclysm from the casual friendly style they had adopted for Wrath. And so the casual raid modes became a staple of the game.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

But then you could say that it's SE's fault for not putting anything interesting in the optional paths that motivates people to deviate.

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Except they've already done that, and we've responded in the same way. Extra gear in Haukke Manor from using additional keys to open more rooms. Upgraded drops in the second part of Cutter's Cry from killing all the mobs in a room before opening the chests. None of it mattered. (Heck, in that second part of Cutter's Cry, groups used to kill one pack and move on...now we don't even bother doing that and just run straight to the portals to the next rooms.) Simply put, it's likely impossible to find something "suitably" rewarding that the playerbase in general will spend that extra time. It's not SE's fault. At all.

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Originally Posted by Delis

Dang it, this why all my friends invite me for hikes. I thought they just enjoyed my company, but no just for bear fodder.

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Ok, that made me laugh.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Actually, try going back and reading old WoW dev interviews. Players preferring only the most optimal path through a dungeon is exactly why they stopped creating the Sunken Temples, Maraudons and Blackrock Depths.

It was indeed the fault of the player base. Development teams get a lot of pressure to cut costs and when only 2% of players are engaging with content on a regular basis, guess what's going to get cut first. It's the stuff that the majority of players are ignoring.

You did know that WoW almost lost raiding altogether toward the end of The Burning Crusade, didn't you? Executive management didn't like that only 2% of the player base was completing the raids. They felt it was a waste of money that should be spent on content a larger part of the player base would do and were pressuring the development team to redirect the manpower to other content development. That's why the diversity of raid difficulties was added in Wrath and expanded on even more during later expansions. It was to get more players into raiding so the developers wouldn't be forced to cut it from the game. It almost backfired when they tried to move raiding back to more difficult in Cataclysm from the casual friendly style they had adopted for Wrath. And so the casual raid modes became a staple of the game.

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And yet we got Brackenhide, Nokhud Offensive, Academy, Neltharus and thats just Dragonflight alone. Shadowlands had the Market for example and BFA had Waycrest Manor. People minmax Raidtrash skips yet you dont see Blizzard going the stupid "teleport to boss in a circle" Route that Square went with.

I dont even know what difficulty settings has to do with this so go on i guess. You are free to continue to excuse the lazyness of the reskin corridor simulator.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Except they've already done that, and we've responded in the same way. Extra gear in Haukke Manor from using additional keys to open more rooms. Upgraded drops in the second part of Cutter's Cry from killing all the mobs in a room before opening the chests. None of it mattered. (Heck, in that second part of Cutter's Cry, groups used to kill one pack and move on...now we don't even bother doing that and just run straight to the portals to the next rooms.) Simply put, it's likely impossible to find something "suitably" rewarding that the playerbase in general will spend that extra time. It's not SE's fault. At all.

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But it used to matter, kinda. People did farm those extra drops. Ofcourse noone does it for old content anymore cause its obsolete. And just having those optional paths makes the world feel more organic. Feels like most people here dont want to play an actual MMO. Sad

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Originally Posted by Striker44

(Heck, in that second part of Cutter's Cry, groups used to kill one pack and move on...now we don't even bother doing that and just run straight to the portals to the next rooms.)

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A big reason for the skipping of mobs is because they don’t reward exp. Best to run to the boss as the trash does nothing other than add a couple hundred Gil to your pocket.

It’s the same as when tanks used to do sac pulls in amdapor and wanderers in ARR. the trash gave zero reward. No Gil. No exp as you were max level.

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Originally Posted by Shinkuno

And yet we got Brackenhide, Nokhud Offensive, Academy, Neltharus and thats just Dragonflight alone. Shadowlands had the Market for example and BFA had Waycrest Manor. People minmax Raidtrash skips yet you dont see Blizzard going the stupid "teleport to boss in a circle" Route that Square went with.

I dont even know what difficulty settings has to do with this so go on i guess. You are free to continue to excuse the lazyness of the reskin corridor simulator.




But it used to matter, kinda. People did farm those extra drops. Ofcourse noone does it for old content anymore cause its obsolete. And just having those optional paths makes the world feel more organic. Feels like most people here dont want to play an actual MMO. Sad

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Dont you want to get level 40 gear as a max level character ? Obviously its your fault and the other players fault that they make it linear, you should go out of your way and get that level 40 gear !

/s

Striker44 being Striker44

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Originally Posted by Striker44

This is, frankly, entirely an "us" issue (as in the players). They used to create dungeons with multiple paths, optional side areas, etc.. What did we the playerbase do? Find which path was "optimal" for the fastest clear, and completely ignore anything that was optional.

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This is... a bit disingenuous.

We haven't seen anything approaching dungeons with truly multiple paths since 1.x. We had optional side paths, but they were typically dull corridors you'd have to then backtrack right back through and doing them provided less rewards per minute than just skipping them.

In a group of randomly matched players with varying available time and assumption of how long the run should take, there's already going to be a skew towards fastest runs, yes, but it was predominantly just because the rewards were just clearly not worth the time* required and felt like low-effort tack-ons (outside of Sastasha and maybe the one lower chest in Darkhold) that people skipped them even when those dungeons were relevant.

Add to that the sidepaths rewards' completely failing to scale in any way for roulette-runners who no longer need the gear, and, yeah, there was a fundamental issue with the design of side-paths. It wasn't just an "us" issue, or even primarily one.

To be clear, I do think the XIV's "Dungeons" are too far gone into being synonymous with Hallway Sprint Simulator to make it worth bringing sidepaths back into them in any meaningful way (and care far more about seeing interesting environmental mechanics than multi-pathing or exploreables for their own sake), but I would love to see dungeon assets reused into a new content type that would be far more open to exploration -- call them, idk, "Delves" or whatnot.

Linear isn't always bad. If it isn't Linear then players will always find Shortcuts and then become toxic towards players that don't know said shortcuts.

Take WoW, for example. There's a shortcut in the Blue dragonflight dungeon that results in skipping almost half of it. It requires jumping off and landing in a specific area. No way will players know that this exists unless they look it up or are shown by another player. Course, with the WoW playerbase, that doesn't happen. Players run ahead to the skip then yell and berate the players that don't know about it and are "wasting" their M+ key.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Actually, try going back and reading old WoW dev interviews. Players preferring only the most optimal path through a dungeon is exactly why they stopped creating the Sunken Temples, Maraudons and Blackrock Depths.

It was indeed the fault of the player base. Development teams get a lot of pressure to cut costs and when only 2% of players are engaging with content on a regular basis, guess what's going to get cut first. It's the stuff that the majority of players are ignoring.

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But they did not turn all dungeons into one path linear corridors. Most if not all dungeons from the latest expansion have multiple possible routes and paths, with plenty of mobs you don't need to pull but can if you want. And many have items you can interact with to make the dungeon faster, or unique group buffs if you have certain professions in the group, and so on.

Far more interesting then pull to wall -> aoe -> pull to wall -> aoe.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

Probably because every "alternate" path would usually be a dead end with a dinky ahh potion or straigjt up vendor trash for a reward.

No extra bosses, no hidden objectives that gives extra rewards when fulfilled (gil, minions, orchestrion rolls, glamours, something), is it any wonder players started taking the path of least resistance? If anyone is to blame, it's SE being SE and throwing the baby out with the bath water instead of finding a way to feasibly accomodate both players that are willing to explore the dungeon they're in, and the ones trying to set an any% world record speedrun in Sastasha.

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yea its the one thing i missed with FFXI. SHit was grindy as hell but you had the off chance to come across a NM in the equilavent of dungeons and maybe a super small chance are some super rare loot.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Linear isn't always bad. If it isn't Linear then players will always find Shortcuts and then become toxic towards players that don't know said shortcuts.

Take WoW, for example. There's a shortcut in the Blue dragonflight dungeon that results in skipping almost half of it. It requires jumping off and landing in a specific area. No way will players know that this exists unless they look it up or are shown by another player. Course, with the WoW playerbase, that doesn't happen. Players run ahead to the skip then yell and berate the players that don't know about it and are "wasting" their M+ key.

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You completly missed the topic but at least you got your hourly "dae wow bad?" quota. Not only is what you described not an optional path and more akin to a exploit, in addition to that M+ is a speedrun mode, dont go into a speedrun mode if you want to sniff at every flower on the way. People will use anything, intended or not, as long as it isnt banworthy to finish those faster.

2021 Joindate, bad take - must be a WoWfugee.