Some interesting gaps about Golbez's history

First of all: this is hardly 'these are plot holes' in a bad way, I just... noticed in thinking about Golbez that there's some curious gaps in his story; things that must have happened given what we already have.

First of all, a general list of things we know about Golbez's post-Flood of Darkness history; this is roughly chronological as far as I can tell, but not really trying to piece together an actual timeline.

1. Like everybody else in the Thirteenth, he's been in some way active since the Flood.
2. He captured Azdaja sometime soon after she crossed over, which is roughly shortly before the Fourth Umbral Calamity; Azdaja said it was him, and if she'd been around for any prolonged period before, someone would've seen her.
3. He recruited the Four Fiends sometime after catching Azdaja.
4. He killed the Thirteenth's version of the Watcher, who was confirmably on the moon, when some form of the Zodiark wards were up (they're visible in that flashback).
5. He's been working out of a base in the Zodiark Hole since, at the earliest, 6.1.
6. The grave of Actual Golbez suggests the moon's basically been an empty location, barren enough to leave an undisturbed grave.

There are enormous gaps in this timeline as far as actual chronology goes, as expected from someone who's basically been on his feet for ten thousand years. That isn't a problem, but it is an admission that he very easily could've been doing a whole lot of stuff we haven't seen. But those last three points are the things that grab me.

First of all: How, when and why did he get to the moon? We actually have no temporal indication of when he fought his Watcher, save that it was before we met ours; we can also tell that while Golbez does control some amount of transit to the moon (given that bunch of voidsent he sicced on us), but again going by Real Golbez's grave he seems to be effectively alone up there. So... when did Golbez make his presumably solo trip? And how, since the moon isn't exactly an easy place to get to? This could've been after Azdaja, which would've given him some level of draconic power, but that's not necessarily a given, nor is it a complete solution, since the actual process of transit is still a big ask even if you've got the energy. And then after all that... why did he bother? Did he know there was something cool on the moon? If so, how? Because he's not exactly an explorer; he wouldn't have gone 'I'm going there because it's there'.

Second, and probably the more important one... If we're the ones that caused the Zodiark Hole to be empty, then Golbez can't have been there for very long at all. Which means, as far as I can tell: either Golbez has an only-recently-vacated domain somewhere, or he killed part of Zodiark before we did. (Realistically, both could be true simultaneously, but I doubt it.) Both of those feel really juicy to dig into; Golbez has very clearly been up to stuff, and we've only seen just enough peeks at it to know there's a story there, and not exactly one I can be confident I'd get right by just guessing.

I'm sure the pre-Flood stuff that we're definitely gonna get about him is interesting, but I really hope we get more information on some of the post-Flood stuff, because I have way more questions about it.

There is also another thing to consider. The 13th is flooded with darkness, which could result in a stronger version of Zodiarks essence even though it's just a part of Zodiark. Maybe irrelevant but food for thought.
Golbez is a walking wild card, the devs could pull all sorts of stuff with him in the last patch(es). I wonder if they resolve some questions you have with the Ascians?

The suspicion about his past is there. They went back to the King and probably got ambushed or betrayed by the King.

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Originally Posted by SilversLyu

The suspicion about his past is there. They went back to the King and probably got ambushed or betrayed by the King.

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I think the fact that I can say with 100% certainty that this definitely happened is why I'm not nearly as interested in his pre-Flood story. This is definitely the tragic parallel to the Castle Baron sequence, and I've kinda got all the data points that allow me to figure out what happened there.

I know way less about what the hell led to his current situation with the moon--and you're probably right, a Zodiark shard on the Thirteenth was probably beefier than average, if he did indeed beat that then it was no small feat. Not to mention him definitely beating the Watcher, who doesn't seem like someone I'd be comfortable picking a fight with anyway.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Second, and probably the more important one... If we're the ones that caused the Zodiark Hole to be empty, then Golbez can't have been there for very long at all. Which means, as far as I can tell: either Golbez has an only-recently-vacated domain somewhere, or he killed part of Zodiark before we did. (Realistically, both could be true simultaneously, but I doubt it.) Both of those feel really juicy to dig into; Golbez has very clearly been up to stuff, and we've only seen just enough peeks at it to know there's a story there, and not exactly one I can be confident I'd get right by just guessing.

I'm sure the pre-Flood stuff that we're definitely gonna get about him is interesting, but I really hope we get more information on some of the post-Flood stuff, because I have way more questions about it.

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Each shard had a piece of Zodiark on the each of their moons. This is represented in the game when we fight Zodiark and he is missing some body parts. When we defeated Zodiark we dispersed him into aether on all the shards. Golbez, must have gone to the moon long before this realizing he is sitting on the biggest deposit of potential aether on the 13th, built his domain over it and waited for the right opportunity. This is his moment to act. What he's been sitting on for a longer period of time must have been his plan, realizing that the WOL defeating the Cloud of Darkness presents the opportunity to defeat Zodiark (any knowledge gap he would possess here would have been filled in when he killed and absorbed the aether of the Watcher). So he's had since ARR to plan for Zeromus. The lore already has presented the why now.

For logistics on how he got to the moon? An ascian made the ruler of Baron build a tower of babel equivalent? Maybe they'll have the whale spaceship for an FFIV call back? I'm not sure this detail matters enough then just a passing mention.

The real questions really have to do with the Contra Memoria. What did the King of Baron want Durante and Man in Black to do? Is the King of Baron corrupted like all men are easily corrupted in the world of the 13th pre-flood of darkness? I assume there is a reason to seek revenge for the Man in Black's death and why was the event so scarring that when Durante became a voidsent he still retained the memory? These will more likely come into play pouring light onto the 13th from the 1st and things from the past start to turn back (much like Zero did when exposed to the crystal of light).

Re: how Golbez got to the Red Moon - a theory but it's been made clear in the past Voidsent can quickly teleport anywhere they wish in the Thirteenth (not surprising given Darkness is activity and movement, and the Thirteenth is so awash with it it's basically in constant flux), so being able to teleport directly to the Red Moon is probably a very easy task for them, as easy as the Ascians could do it on the Source, and without the pesky 'possibly injure yourself or not arrive at all' issue teleportation without using an aetheryte normally has.

Just my musings though.

If he can't naturally teleport himself to the moon, it's possible that he forced Azdaja to carry him there.

Maybe he can get to the moon because he's just that strong? Aether for days?

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Originally Posted by Iscah

If he can't naturally teleport himself to the moon, it's possible that he forced Azdaja to carry him there.

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That seems a little unlikely, since that orb he'd stuck her in was also protecting her; she's not exactly safely flight-capable. Being able to take one of her eyes is definitely an asset, but I feel like it can't be the entire answer.

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Originally Posted by Bad_Luck

Maybe he can get to the moon because he's just that strong? Aether for days?

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Frankly, while that sounds theoretically possible, it feels like it'd be an even worse answer than just not getting an answer. Getting to the moon feels like it shouldn't be a problem that can be solved by just flexing a power level at it, especially given this is a game that's never really done that sort of storytelling before.

Maybe he has enough aether by himself to power a solution in a way that we don't, but that should only give him the equivalent of the Tower of Babil's aether reserves, not the Tower of Babil itself.

Given the animal-like voidsent offering transport for aether in the MSQ, I think that method is a valid option for travel to the moon on the 13th. Assuming one can provide enough aether. The voidsent don't need to breathe, far as I know. And if they do, I'm sure there's a shield/bubble spell for that.

And yeah, gonna guess the lunar whale is gonna be involved in this somehow if its ever explained. Might even be another Bismarck to add to our collection. (And I thought VII went overboard with its 50 Bahamuts... lol)

The "Azdaja was forced to provide transport" idea is also valid, imo.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Re: how Golbez got to the Red Moon - a theory but it's been made clear in the past Voidsent can quickly teleport anywhere they wish in the Thirteenth (not surprising given Darkness is activity and movement, and the Thirteenth is so awash with it it's basically in constant flux), so being able to teleport directly to the Red Moon is probably a very easy task for them, as easy as the Ascians could do it on the Source, and without the pesky 'possibly injure yourself or not arrive at all' issue teleportation without using an aetheryte normally has.

Just my musings though.

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I was thinking similar - that they could well use a much-improved version of Hell's Ingress/Hell's Egress/ Regress that Reapers are able to use.

If we did truly go to the 13th and explore it in an expac, with actual zones, I wonder if there would be a different aetheryte mechanic? The 13's whole schtick is that the lifestream and aether are out of control and all over the place. But that's what forms aetherytes and what we use to traverse them on the source/first.

Would the teleport mechanic on the 13th have to instead involve us popping in and out of a reaper-like portal?

Or maybe an atomos network instead of an aetheryte network, with atomoses having eaten portals or something and preferring stationary lives??? (To explain why the zone fast travel points don't move around on us.)

This is of course assuming we would be traversing the 13th as it exists now. If they end up syphoning light to it and stabalizing the shard somehow before we explore it more, then we'd probably just have aetherytes as normal and they'd be explained as "natural reservoirs for the new aether that flooded the shard" or something.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

If we did truly go to the 13th and explore it in an expac, with actual zones, I wonder if there would be a different aetheryte mechanic? The 13's whole schtick is that the lifestream and aether are out of control and all over the place. But that's what forms aetherytes and what we use to traverse them on the source/first.

Would the teleport mechanic on the 13th have to instead involve us popping in and out of a reaper-like portal?

Or maybe an atomos network instead of an aetheryte network, with atomoses having eaten portals or something and preferring stationary lives??? (To explain why the zone fast travel points don't move around on us.)

This is of course assuming we would be traversing the 13th as it exists now. If they end up syphoning light to it and stabalizing the shard somehow before we explore it more, then we'd probably just have aetherytes as normal and they'd be explained as "natural reservoirs for the new aether that flooded the shard" or something.

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I would assume an expansion that takes place on the 13th would be post-influx of light from the 1st (inferred by Y'shtola at the end of 6.4). Reverting it's places and people back to what it was during the Contramemoria and the mission would be to reopen the life stream.

What's interesting about doing this kind of expansion is the characters would be untrustworthy and easily corruptible (as shown in the flashbacks with Durante). There is a lot of risk to personal safety trying to save this world even if it is redeemed by light (the finale's setup would have to be a big betrayal). The WOL's reputation would need to be completely reearned over the course of the adventure.

But does the community want another expansion on another shard (so much of the source still remains unexplored)? And this does make a great potential expansion, but what do we do after that--another set of 5 post patches to setup another completely new conflict? (I fail to see how this could connect with the next 2-3 expansions we're promised with the 10 year plan).

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

If we did truly go to the 13th and explore it in an expac, with actual zones, I wonder if there would be a different aetheryte mechanic? The 13's whole schtick is that the lifestream and aether are out of control and all over the place. But that's what forms aetherytes and what we use to traverse them on the source/first.

Would the teleport mechanic on the 13th have to instead involve us popping in and out of a reaper-like portal?

Or maybe an atomos network instead of an aetheryte network, with atomoses having eaten portals or something and preferring stationary lives??? (To explain why the zone fast travel points don't move around on us.)

This is of course assuming we would be traversing the 13th as it exists now. If they end up syphoning light to it and stabalizing the shard somehow before we explore it more, then we'd probably just have aetherytes as normal and they'd be explained as "natural reservoirs for the new aether that flooded the shard" or something.

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I think a big reason why we won't get a Thirteenth Expansion is because, if we ever did, it would strip the Thirteenth of all that makes it unique. The Thirteenth is a weirdly ruined, indistinct hellhole of a place without any of what we'd recognize as comforts or pleasures.

A Thirteenth expansion could possibly do six relatively diverse zones without difficulty, although I think we'd hit a problem similar to Ala Mhigo where all the zones are 'it's a desert, but'; even if you come up with six unique twists on 'it's a void of darkness, but', it's still gonna feel pretty samey. But as far as other expansion assets, and presuming the same structure as we have now, a Thirteenth expansion would need:

• Two 'peaceful city' zones
• Somewhere between maybe six and nine small settlements in field zones
• A handful of crafting/gathering storylines (which of course requires some kind of hub for that)
• Six zones' worth of mining, botany, and fishing yields
• An aetheryte network
• Three different tribe quests, one of which is crafting and one of which is gathering
• Some sort of infrastructure for hunts
• A market square
• An inn

And that's leaving out things like raid storylines or role quests, where any amount of them could be somewhere else, but if they were all offshored then it'd feel a bit cheap.

Plausibly, yes you could write in a lot of these, but at what point when you start adding all these amenities have we lost the Thirteenth feeling like an inhospitable wasteland whose social dynamic is entirely dog-eat-dog?

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I think a big reason why we won't get a Thirteenth Expansion is because, if we ever did, it would strip the Thirteenth of all that makes it unique. The Thirteenth is a weirdly ruined, indistinct hellhole of a place without any of what we'd recognize as comforts or pleasures.

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Idk, this more of point of view issue. You can say it's "unique" and I could say it looks like a world in need of saving. And given everything we know about the WOL and the Scions, do you really think they'd sit back and say let nature take it's course; it's better if we do nothing (because it's unique)?

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Originally Posted by Kesey

Idk, this more of point of view issue. You can say it's "unique" and I could say it looks like a world in need of saving. And given everything we know about the WOL and the Scions, do you really think they'd sit back and say let nature take it's course; it's better if we do nothing (because it's unique)?

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I'm not saying that they wouldn't, I'm saying that the devs wouldn't see that as a good expansion potential. Which is why we're exploring this in patch content and sidestories, so that that story can exist but not force it into this prescribed list of 'Things An Expansion Needs' that doesn't serve that story. If the Thirteenth is something they want to tell, but doesn't fit an expansion, why not approach it some other way, like they are?

Also, they can't actually fix the Thirteenth in an immediate sense, because if they do then they can never use voidsent again and completely destroy Reaper's lore. So, yeah, we're not doing 'SAVE THE THIRTEENTH' as an expansion, and the Thirteenth's story will mostly be expressed in 'fight this one warlord' and 'get the ball rolling on a long-term solution' in the void quests.