Average Player Skill Level

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Mechanics that people don't screw up when ARR raids were current content are now getting screwed up non-stop in EW!!!

Where's the proof?

Ok. I think people need to fight their nature and just walk away from these threads. Let them fade into obscurity. I'm sure one of his alts will bump it...but let it just fade again.

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Originally Posted by Renalt

Ok. I think people need to fight their nature and just walk away from these threads. Let them fade into obscurity. I'm sure one of his alts will bump it...but let it just fade again.

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can't handle the truth so you have no real response!!

Ah, yes, ARR, when a dungeon usually took longer than 30 minutes (had to reapply Protect), when Titan hm (not ex) was the ultimate roadblock, when people were unable to clear any dps check with the easy level 50 rotations, when they had to nerf Pharos Sirius and change the whole formula for creating dungeons...

After all these years, we need trolls to step up their game. This is too obvious and too simple. I want some premium trolling! We deserve quality trolling. Do better Gaius!

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Originally Posted by Tint

Ah, yes, ARR, when a dungeon usually took longer than 30 minutes (had to reapply Protect), when Titan hm (not ex) was the ultimate roadblock, when people were unable to clear any dps check with the easy level 50 rotations, when they had to nerf Pharos Sirius and change the whole formula for creating dungeons...

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True. And EW average player is even worse than that!

You are forgetting the fact that we have dumbed down jobs right now. Put an ARR player and an EW player back in ARR jobs with ARR dungeons and the ARR player will win any time.

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Originally Posted by UltraPrimarch

After all these years, we need trolls to step up their game. This is too obvious and too simple. I want some premium trolling! We deserve quality trolling. Do better Gaius!

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This is my heartfelt sentiment after a #@!$ alliance raid where we wiped to things we don't even wipe to in ARR!!!

Sure, the average RAIDER skill level has probably gone up, with Ultimates and whatnot. But we're talking about the AVERAGE player here.

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Originally Posted by Yuella

Where's the proof?

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He posted a graph right there! ;)

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Originally Posted by GaiusDrakon

True. And EW average player is even worse than that!

You are forgetting the fact that we have dumbed down jobs right now. Put an ARR player and an EW player back in ARR jobs with ARR dungeons and the ARR player will win any time.



This is my heartfelt sentiment after a #@!$ alliance raid where we wiped to things we don't even wipe to in ARR!!!

Sure, the average RAIDER skill level has probably gone up, with Ultimates and whatnot. But we're talking about the AVERAGE player here.

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Tell us a thrilling tale chap! I want to hear somebody screaming "STOP DOTS!!" I want the deets. There's a whole thread where people share the horrors in great detail. Your graph--link us to a google doc where your data is compiled. Your feelings are valid, but I want to empathize and I need proper content to get there.

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Originally Posted by UltraPrimarch

Tell us a thrilling tale chap! I want to hear somebody screaming "STOP DOTS!!" I want the deets.

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That's me on Moogle EX back in ARR...

Regardless of skill, i'm just happy there are people playing the game :)

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Originally Posted by GaiusDrakon

Mechanics that people don't screw up when ARR raids were current content are now getting screwed up non-stop in EW!!!

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Do you have any evidence at all for your claims, or are you just making them up out of thin air?

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Originally Posted by UltraPrimarch

Tell us a thrilling tale chap! I want to hear somebody screaming "STOP DOTS!!" I want the deets. There's a whole thread where people share the horrors in great detail. Your graph--link us to a google doc where your data is compiled. Your feelings are valid, but I want to empathize and I need proper content to get there.

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What tale lmao it's all over the game. You see this every day!!

I have literally NEVER seen an ARR alliance raid run where the tank tries to group up the mobs together for AoEing in EW. EVER. Unless I'm tanking. The very fact that even a very basic tanking skill - grouping mobs together - is missing these days shows how bad the players are now!!!!

I'm outraged that in Final Fantasy XIV: Endwalker I can still die to auto damage from Doga clones because no tank bothers to do their job and healers are sleeping!!!! Average skill is zero REEEE

Maybe if they give us Quelling Strikes back I wouldn't care :)

It's me, I'm average player

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

It's me, I'm average player

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I am even below your lvl....oh my...what to do...
https://media1.giphy.com/media/zZBNY...giphy.gif&ct=g

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

Do you have any evidence at all for your claims, or are you just making them up out of thin air?

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The latter.

He doesn't have access to official metrics, or any other form of evidence, that could prove this claim.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

The latter.

He doesn't have access to official metrics, or any other form of evidence, that could prove this claim.

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He is wrong anyway. People were super bad in ARR and only got better after 2.2 when the relic grind came and people started to speedrun things to get tomes faster and doing the trial roulette every day. Adds were -never- properly tanked in CT. I know that for sure because I often was ripped apart when I casted Medica 2...

Jobs were easy to play in ARR for the most part (maybe Monk and Summoner actually were harder to play than today) and only got hard in HW when they added all those timers and buffs you had to upkeep. Dumbing down jobs begun in SB, because people were >bad< in HW. But on his graph it is the peak player skill time...

But oh well, why am I wasting my time here in this troll topic trying to argue...

https://i.imgur.com/PUoYWpV.gif

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Originally Posted by Renalt

Ok. I think people need to fight their nature and just walk away from these threads. Let them fade into obscurity. I'm sure one of his alts will bump it...but let it just fade again.

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Yes, but this is just...SO absurdly wrong. As someone said:

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Originally Posted by Tint

Ah, yes, ARR, when a dungeon usually took longer than 30 minutes (had to reapply Protect), when Titan hm (not ex) was the ultimate roadblock, when people were unable to clear any dps check with the easy level 50 rotations, when they had to nerf Pharos Sirius and change the whole formula for creating dungeons...

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It's like comparing a modern WoW raid to Molten Snore where players were not using all their abilities because they might draw agro or hit the boss' debuff cap. Where Hunters literally just auto-attacked. While the toughest fights back in ARR were tough, there were a lot of borderline tank and spanks or fights that only required 1-3 people to actually know what they were doing.

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Originally Posted by GaiusDrakon

True. And EW average player is even worse than that!

You are forgetting the fact that we have dumbed down jobs right now.

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Look at NIN's rotation at level 50 and compare it to now. One of those looks "dumbed down", and it ain't the EW version. At level 50, NIN's didn't have Ninki. They didn't have Forked/Fleeting. They didn't have Hyosho Ranryu interacting with Kassatsu (indeed, you didn't even need to memorize the Hyoton Mudra combination...). No Ten-Chi-Jin. No Meisui. No Huraijin. No Phantom Kamaitachi off of Bunshin. You had a bunch of 1-2-3, the occasional 1-2-4 (for a different reason, though; the slashing debuff if your party didn't have a WAR, I think it was...), and a bunch of Raiton.

NIN is hardly the only Job we could say this about. BLM now is far more mobile than it was in ARR, but fights also REQUIRE a lot more mobility, and it's a far more technical Job to line that mobility up with boss fight phases. It also has Fire/Blizzard 4, Umbral Hearts, Polyglot stacks, Ley Lines, Sharpcast, Umbral Soul, and Paradox to play around with.

The Tank rotations at the time were borderline nonexistent. PLD had Rage of Halone combo...and that was literally it. There was no Confetior combo. There was no Royal Authority yet. There was no Goring Blade yet. There wasn't even Clemency, though you could cross-class Cure 1 and Stoneskin. PLD had a 1-2-3 combo, Tank stance at level 45 or so, and Flash. FLASH. Flash - and JUST flash - was PLD's "AOE rotation". I guess you could count 1-2 Riot for MP to keep casting more Flash as a "rotation", but it wouldn't past muster in the modern game. People talk about modern PLD post 6.3 being braindead, but it has twice the complexity that ARR PLD had. The only other thing ARR PLD had going for it was Sword Oath stance, but that was something like your attacks doing a bit of extra autoattack damage? It's been a while, so I don't even remember other than it was not compelling and challenging gameplay.

Yeah, you can point to a case like SMN, but the funny part is, modern SMN is about as mechanically complex as SMN at 50 was. The often complaint about modern SMN? "It's like a level 50 Job". SMN in ARR was "apply DoTs, use Aetherflow on Fester, poop out Shadow Flare, spam Ruin until something needs refreshing". Riveting, I'm sure.

DRG? It's more mechanically complex to play now than it was then.

MNK? Less positionals, WAY more mechanical complexity - MNK back then was rotate through your 6 basic abilities. I'm not even sure if they had the Riddle/Fist of <element> abilities back then, but I don't think they did.

BRD? Didn't even have Iron Jaws. And things didn't proc like they do now. Songs didn't work like they do now.

SCH? Less DPS kit now but its healing kit is far more advanced than it was then.

WHM? If you look at it by the numbers, they only have one less damage ability now than they did in ARR. And despite people fantasizing to the contrary, WHM's didn't "Cleric Stance dance" until late in ARR and really into HW. World First clears of content would often not see the WHM in Cleric at all, and sometimes, not even casting a damage spell due to MP constraints. It was Cure 1 Freecure fishing for Cure 2, Medica and Medica 2, Regen, and Stoneskin.

WAR I can't say - because it had those kind of ridiculous MRD cross-class builds,

The only arguments you might have of Jobs at 90 that AREN'T more mechanically complex than they were at 50 in ARR would be WAR, WHM, and SMN, and the latter two of those are debateable.

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Maybe we can look at "average" encounters, but most of the bosses in the EW 24 mans have mechanics comparable in complexity to those in the Crystal Tower raids. For example, in Labyrinth, the first boss was changed (it originally required 6 tanks), but the second boss is kind of just "one party attacks boss, other two parties kill every add they see", big bomb is "each party tanks one of the sub-bosses, which does a tankbuster and a point blank AOE, kill the bombs that spawn, then kill the big bomb once all the subbosses are dead". Behemoth is just "drop meteors outside of his hitbox, kill Iron Giants so they don't destroy your cover, hide behind the meteors when he summons the big one". And the final boss? Don't stand in the VERY apparent AOE telegraphs, kill the single hand add that spans for your party, go to the outside and stand on a pad when he moves to the center to cast his big flare attack, kill adds there, repeat until dead".

None of those require the quick and precise levels of movement of modern 24 mans. None of those mechanics even compare to Halone's 4 hit memory game mechanic, much less everything ELSE in that fight or in that raid.

Some people like going on and on about Orbonne - the 24 man that had to be nerfed a half dozen times because at launch, groups were literally timing out of the instance without a clear - but that was (a) in SB, not ARR and (b) probably the hardest difficulty "casual" content ever released into the game. And the result wasn't players being better, the result was people not clearing and eventually people avoiding or dropping from it so NO ONE ELSE could clear, either.

One of the Coils fights was literally just an extended add phase. And if you exclude stuff that was buggy (Divebomb) or ridiculously unintuitive to the point even people clearing it weren't sure how it worked (Twister), they mechanically aren't some world more away from Savage raids today in a lot of senses. The Extremes back then were also mechanically easier - players were just not as good. Indeed, Extremes now are mechanically a lot more involved than most of the ones back then were, as are the player rotations required to beat Enrages. The reason we have good clear rates is just because the player base has gotten better over the years and gotten used to various mechanics and how to resolve them.

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I'm not sure if the average player skill has gone up, down, or stayed the same - I highly doubt it's gone off the cliff like your absurd "graph" in the OP wants to say - but Jobs have often become much more complex over the years, and encounter design has become more complex as well.

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Basically this:

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Originally Posted by Tint

He is wrong anyway. People were super bad in ARR and only got better after 2.2 when the relic grind came and people started to speedrun things to get tomes faster and doing the trial roulette every day. Adds were -never- properly tanked in CT. I know that for sure because I often was ripped apart when I casted Medica 2...

Jobs were easy to play in ARR for the most part (maybe Monk and Summoner actually were harder to play than today) and only got hard in HW when they added all those timers and buffs you had to upkeep. Dumbing down jobs begun in SB, because people were >bad< in HW. But on his graph it is the peak player skill time...

But oh well, why am I wasting my time here in this troll topic trying to argue...

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Yes and nope.

I don't think it's as simple as "They are worse now than before" - As I could easily pick out other raids and instances where the contrary is true, and even just in general.

I would say though on this note, that a lot of the contributing factor is just simply a lot of the older content after many of the reworks is just not really preparing people as well as it should. e.g., you can go through WoD largely not knowing a damn thing and not have a single wipe or an individual death. e.g., a few people in the party can quite as easily prevent wipe-able and killable mechanics.

You can also attribute this to the fact that ARR alliance raids are now mandatory from a very early stage in the game, where comparatively in the past you could get away with not doing them until Shadowbringers, or equally you could get away with not doing them at all, just prior.

I think you forget just how the average players were in previous expansions.

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Originally Posted by Tint

Ah, yes, ARR, when a dungeon usually took longer than 30 minutes (had to reapply Protect), when Titan hm (not ex) was the ultimate roadblock, when people were unable to clear any dps check with the easy level 50 rotations, when they had to nerf Pharos Sirius and change the whole formula for creating dungeons...

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So, back when the game and its players were good.

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Originally Posted by Tint

Ah, yes, ARR, when a dungeon usually took longer than 30 minutes (had to reapply Protect), when Titan hm (not ex) was the ultimate roadblock, when people were unable to clear any dps check with the easy level 50 rotations, when they had to nerf Pharos Sirius and change the whole formula for creating dungeons...

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So you mean back when the content at least had a bit of challenge to it instead of being able to faceroll on your keyboard and still be able to pull 4 packs of mobs at a time without getting close to dying

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Yes and nope.

I would say though on this note, that a lot of the contributing factor is just simply a lot of the older content after many of the reworks is just not really preparing people as well as it should. e.g., you can go through WoD largely not knowing a damn thing and not have a single wipe or an individual death. e.g., a few people in the party can quite as easily prevent wipe-able and killable mechanics.

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As a new-ish player (started Nov. 2021), I absolutely feel like this is the case. I finished the MSQ without knowing anything about mechanics besides the pointers over my head or the orange circles on the ground. It never crossed my mind that anything would be happening outside of the boss arena (meteors), or that boss gestures, etc. were things to look for. I just died a lot, inexplicably, and got carried through the content. It was only when I started trying to run content with the Trust and I literally wouldn't finish the dungeon without knowing these things, that I started to learn about them. The day I finished the Fell Court with the Trust, and 4 minutes left on the clock, was kind of a revelation for me about how a lot of mechanics actually work.

I was going into every dungeon, trial, and raid blind ,as they say, and completing them nearly as blind as when I went in.

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

So you mean back when the content at least had a bit of challenge to it instead of being able to faceroll on your keyboard and still be able to pull 4 packs of mobs at a time without getting close to dying

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I dont think people back then saw it as a satisfying challenge. More so as annoyingly designed.

I still like the more rpg stuff back then but youd be a fool to believe everyone else thought "this is perfectly ok".

I rather we improve than going back and regress

Who cares. You also said the content is brain dead so the average player isn’t stopping you from finishing any content. Looking down on others won’t make them better, nor do they need to be for most content.

If this upsets you so much, only play with friends who play to your standards assuming you are capable of making any.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

but this is just...SO absurdly wrong.

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Ur like the last person who should talk about skill LMAO

As a Shadowbaby, I can confirm.
I only have one single braincell constantly on the verge of exploding when doing mechanics and pressing 1 2 3 at the same time.

I feel like 99% of the mechanics issue in ARR were due to the fact that the default controls were "standard" instead of "legacy" which made it hard for melee to backup.

the title should really be: Average Troll skill level

the skill level of trolls has dropped considerably recently. with the dumbing down of moderation, there has been little or no incentive to actually be good or creative any longer.

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Originally Posted by GaiusDrakon

Ur like the last person who should talk about skill LMAO

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I don't know. I mean, they did at least construct an elaborate post outlining their thoughts - which is more than your rant-thread (and demonstrably poor command over spelling/grammar) deserved really.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

the title should really be: Average Troll skill level

the skill level of trolls has dropped considerably recently. with the dumbing down of moderation, there has been little or no incentive to actually be good or creative any longer.

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lmao, this is super ironic because no matter what i write these days the same 20 people will all jump in and keep bumping the post

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

I don't know. I mean, they did at least construct an elaborate post outlining their thoughts - which is more than your rant-thread (and demonstrably poor command over spelling/grammar) deserved really.

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your teachers must be so proud that you get enraptured by a long essay full of nonsense just bc its long

then again ik u just feel attacked cos ur skill is -5000

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Originally Posted by GaiusDrakon

lmao, this is super ironic because no matter what i write these days the same 20 people will all jump in and keep bumping the post



your teachers must be so proud that you get enraptured by a long essay full of nonsense just bc its long

then again ik u just feel attacked cos ur skill is -5000

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-5000? Well, that's encouraging as I thought it was -6000.

And I'm pretty convinced that your teachers took one look at your attempt at forming sentences, conceded defeat and moved to another country.

If this graph is true, it's only motivation for the devs to make jobs even simpler and to gut healer even further.

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Originally Posted by GaiusDrakon

What tale lmao it's all over the game. You see this every day!!

I have literally NEVER seen an ARR alliance raid run where the tank tries to group up the mobs together for AoEing in EW. EVER. Unless I'm tanking. The very fact that even a very basic tanking skill - grouping mobs together - is missing these days shows how bad the players are now!!!!

I'm outraged that in Final Fantasy XIV: Endwalker I can still die to auto damage from Doga clones because no tank bothers to do their job and healers are sleeping!!!! Average skill is zero REEEE

Maybe if they give us Quelling Strikes back I wouldn't care :)

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I saw this coming back in Stormblood expansion when I witness a tank pull the entire 3rd of the dungeon on our way to the second boss in the Ala Mhigo dungeon. (No wipes, but the party barely survived, all below 25% hp) I've quit learning how to heal after seeing this, and I gave up being a tank main after having dps pull additional mobs for me. I do not regret my decision 2 expansion later.

If you want to survive you might want to invest in potions and start learning how to cycle through your defensives if you find yourself in that situation.

Damn idk
when i tried to run the second trial extreme...i cleared in 2 or 3 hours on party finder
now i am trying the latest extreme...my party failed in the same mech for 6 hours
pain

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

So you mean back when the content at least had a bit of challenge to it instead of being able to faceroll on your keyboard and still be able to pull 4 packs of mobs at a time without getting close to dying

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No, we just sucked at the game.

Let them cook, they got a point.

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Originally Posted by Yuella

Where's the proof?

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roulette queues

savage pf parties

especially myself

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Let them cook, they got a point.

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https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E4X_YF8VcAY16QN.png

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Originally Posted by GaiusDrakon

What tale lmao it's all over the game. You see this every day!!

I have literally NEVER seen an ARR alliance raid run where the tank tries to group up the mobs together for AoEing in EW. EVER. Unless I'm tanking. The very fact that even a very basic tanking skill - grouping mobs together - is missing these days shows how bad the players are now!!!!

I'm outraged that in Final Fantasy XIV: Endwalker I can still die to auto damage from Doga clones because no tank bothers to do their job and healers are sleeping!!!! Average skill is zero REEEE

Maybe if they give us Quelling Strikes back I wouldn't care :)

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Honestly mate, it doesn't sound that bad. Outrage? Sounds mildly infuriating... https://www.reddit.com/r/mildyinfuriating/

But thanks for giving some context and detail. I personally think there is much MUCH more frustrating and enraging things in this game, but that's just me.