Healing and mitigation balance issues

I think only balancing jobs via damage potencies only is causing problems. If damage potencies are very much equal across the board, balancing needs to be done to healing and mitigation too. Why bring SCH if SGE does more damage and can actively heal more on demand and shield without cast times? Why bring DRK when WAR has significantly more self-sustain? I think the healing/mitigation gap between jobs in a role is too big in certain aspects and needs to be addressed.
Balancing only to damage potencies will only cause toxicity. Healing and mitigation should also be considered and balanced accordingly or jobs will be left out because they don’t have enough utility or have less healing and self-sustain potential than other jobs. Even if “damage is the only thing that matters In high-end raids” the should at least look into making it balanced in 4-man content while damage potencies could be solely balanced to 8-man content where it matters the most.

For whatever reason, balancing is done almost exclusively towards Week 1 Savage Clears specifically and more often than not all other forms of content are discarded. I don't agree with this logic, but people seem fine with it.

In this case, DRK has more raw mitigation than WAR does, so it performs fine within that content, Bring it anywhere else and thats when its cracks begin to show. There doesn't seem to be any real logic or cohesion to balancing jobs between Utility and Damage, seeing as they're fine buffing the fuck out of WAR's DPS, but RDM was left out to rot, in favor of buffing the already best caster in the game further.

I'm going to chalk it up to Job Favoritism for the dev team.

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Originally Posted by HyonaCookie

I think only balancing jobs via damage potencies only is causing problems. If damage potencies are very much equal across the board, balancing needs to be done to healing and mitigation too. Why bring SCH if SGE does more damage and can actively heal more on demand and shield without cast times? Why bring DRK when WAR has significantly more self-sustain? I think the healing/mitigation gap between jobs in a role is too big in certain aspects and needs to be addressed.
Balancing only to damage potencies will only cause toxicity. Healing and mitigation should also be considered and balanced accordingly or jobs will be left out because they don’t have enough utility or have less healing and self-sustain potential than other jobs. Even if “damage is the only thing that matters In high-end raids” the should at least look into making it balanced in 4-man content while damage potencies could be solely balanced to 8-man content where it matters the most.

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That's what happens when streamers become in charge of balance. They disregard their personal strengths. Dark did more damage, and like the fat kid on the playground playing super heroes with the other kids, they also wanted ours.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

That's what happens when streamers become in charge of balance. They disregard their personal strengths. Dark did more damage, and like the fat kid on the playground playing super heroes with the other kids, they also wanted ours.

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I really hope they're not listening to people like Xeno because he says shit like you can't fit your burst in No Mercy and wants DRK to become as OP as the other three tanks when it should be the other way around. Unironically people like him is why we have homogenized braindead jobs.

As Yoshi said if you want to enjoy a healer just go do Ultimates... Oh wait we don't need healers for Ultimates. Guess he means "Lul go play something else."

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Originally Posted by Archeron

As Yoshi said if you want to enjoy a healer just go do Ultimates... Oh wait we don't need healers for Ultimates. Guess he means "Lul go play something else."

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This isn't about wanting to heal more as a healer, this is about general healing and mitigation differences between jobs. It's about how some jobs have more of an advantage in areas of healing and mit compared to others when you look at healing/mitigation numbers in a role.

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Originally Posted by HyonaCookie

This isn't about wanting to heal more as a healer, this is about general healing and mitigation differences between jobs. It's about how some jobs have more of an advantage in areas of healing and mit compared to others when you look at healing/mitigation numbers in a role.

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so, basically, you want to make all jobs identical?

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

so, basically, you want to make all jobs identical?

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Having more balanced healing and mitigation within a role doesn't mean jobs have to be identical. But if damage numbers don't take into account how much healing and mitigation a job has, it'll just make some jobs feel useless in all content rather than just a few.

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Originally Posted by HyonaCookie

Having more balanced healing and mitigation within a role doesn't mean jobs have to be identical. But if damage numbers don't take into account how much healing and mitigation a job has, it'll just make some jobs feel useless in all content rather than just a few.

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never run across a dev yet that can balance. and the more it is asked for, the more jobs become the same.

even being the same, not everyone plays the same, which means more "balance" to try and offset the good and bad players... so you end up with identical wads of wet toilet paper for a "job" just with different names.

balance is mythical

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Originally Posted by GaiusDrakon

I really hope they're not listening to people like Xeno because he says shit like you can't fit your burst in No Mercy and wants DRK to become as OP as the other three tanks when it should be the other way around. Unironically people like him is why we have homogenized braindead jobs.

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He claims you cannot mess up DRK's rotation because it's just 123 button. WAR has 123 button where you can also do 124 to get the damage boost.

Both DRK and WAR share the same thing: get gauge up and then spam Bloodspiller/Fell Cleave, rinse and repeat. Both are the same with just different flavor and visuals in it. GNB has a separate combo from its main 123, PLD has a magic combo thrown in there.

Xeno mains WAR, of course he wants WAR to be the strongest. DRK has the worst self sustain, but at least we had something, and that was the highest damage combo with the busy opener. SE plays favoritism with streamers, they don't care what other people say otherwise.

This is why jobs can't be unique and everything will become eventually homogenized in the long run.

Can I ask a simple question? All jobs can clear all content, can they not?

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Originally Posted by KitingGenbu

Can I ask a simple question? All jobs can clear all content, can they not?

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That all jobs are individually able to clear content in a given composition of a given average player quality does not mean...

A. that all party compositions are able to clear all content, nor
B. that all jobs are able to clear content within a typical composition with a group of typical player quality, nor
C. that each job will be permitted in XIV PFs since, relatively small difference or no, why take something unconditionally* inferior?

* After all, each job is so similar to the others in role that most differences do not allow for a different but competitive strategy, but instead simply the same strategy performed better or worse.

I don't think balance is especially a problem right now, but "all jobs can clear (in the right circumstances)" is hardly a mark of decent parity.

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Originally Posted by KitingGenbu

Can I ask a simple question? All jobs can clear all content, can they not?

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Just because all jobs can allegedly clear all content, doesn't mean they're viewed as viable in all content. Take for instance criterion dungeons. Barely anyone does them as a DRK unless they are hardcore players who like clearing content on every single job. To everyone else it's basically griefing to bring DRK. If all jobs can clear content, then some jobs are more able to clear content than others.

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Originally Posted by HyonaCookie

Just because all jobs can allegedly clear all content, doesn't mean they're viewed as viable in all content. Take for instance criterion dungeons. Barely anyone does them as a DRK unless they are hardcore players who like clearing content on every single job. To everyone else it's basically griefing to bring DRK. If all jobs can clear content, then some jobs are more able to clear content than others.

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So kind of like last tier savage before SE nerfed the final boss how you were griefing by bringing a warrior or paladin since we are on the tank bandwagon.

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Originally Posted by KitingGenbu

Can I ask a simple question? All jobs can clear all content, can they not?

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Irrelevant. Why does the job i want to play have to be strictly worse at everything Warrior does?

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Originally Posted by KitingGenbu

Can I ask a simple question? All jobs can clear all content, can they not?

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CNJ has cleared The weapon's refrain. All jobs should be balanced around cnj

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Originally Posted by GaiusDrakon

I really hope they're not listening to people like Xeno because he says shit like you can't fit your burst in No Mercy and wants DRK to become as OP as the other three tanks when it should be the other way around. Unironically people like him is why we have homogenized braindead jobs.

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Oh they're listening to streamers and their hivemind. This happens in just about every game >.>
But yeah, i already started to level this stupid job i despise playing because it looks like it's just going to be the best at everything for the remainder of the expansion.

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Originally Posted by KitingGenbu

Can I ask a simple question? All jobs can clear all content, can they not?

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All jobs can clear content, but are all jobs necessary to clear content, when people are clearing ultimates with literally no healers?

If they want balance while retaining Job identity, they need to figure out the absolutely necessary buttons and make them Role Actions. Then use the rest of kit to have a different flavor of approach to DPS and utility. This doesn't mean all the role spesific things need to be cut from the Job, it's fine if they still have some of their own approach to healing and tanking but it would be easier to balance and make even more flashy as long as the core is there and sufficient.

It might homogenize Tank and Healer core roles (though you could argue they are already fairly similar) but it would allow for more freedom elsewhere making them fill their roles while having a better Job "fantasy".

Another thing that I like to bring up is also making the Tank and Healer roles use more supportive feedback loop. Some of them at lower level completely skip mitigation or damage while focusing almost solely on damage at high level. It would be a simple thing to add something like basic attacks building your healing / mitigation big button and properly healing/shielding/regening/mitigating etc. etc. in turn giving you flashy DPS button(s). They can even fight button bloat by having a dedicated button or two that changes depending on what you have built up.

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Originally Posted by ThaCa

If they want balance while retaining Job identity, they need to figure out the absolutely necessary buttons and make them Role Actions.

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This is how we lost a bunch of interesting looking skills in ShB all because "They do the same thing as one another." Exalted Detriment, Shadowskin, Luminiferous Aether, Leeches and so on all got removed in favor of generic, boring role actions that replaced each. It actually harmed job identity across the board in ways the game hadn't done so before. If anything, role actions need to be themed around the job you use them on; while retaining the same name, or need to be rethought entirely.

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Originally Posted by Archeron

All jobs can clear content, but are all jobs necessary to clear content, when people are clearing ultimates with literally no healers?

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To be fair, one group of 8 people is hardly "people are clearing ultimates". It's "people" in the absolute most technical sense of "more than one Human being", but in any realistic sense, it isn't. ONE GROUP doing a thing getting overblown to the point of abject ridiculousness.

NOTE: This isn't me saying encounter design doesn't need changing (I say all the time it does), nor me saying the game doesn't need to require more healing (I say all the time it does), nor me saying Tank and DPS healing and mitigation is fine where it is (I say all the time both need to be reduced) - but the amount of currency in hyperbole people have gotten from the fact one group that INTENSELY focused on a specific fight to figure out how to cheese mechanics with Cover and delayed Raise acceptance along with luck...is abjectly insane. That's like saying "Marathons are easy, a few thousands of people do them all the time", as if everyone was doing it. Or "Anyone can beat the AI Go master, after all, the best Human player in the world played 5 matches against it and won 1, so OBVIOUSLY anyone can do it!"

"But the Ultimate before was cleared with one healer!!" - Yes, also by cheesing things they could, bringing the most versatile Healer Job, having their Tank and DPS heal (like their PLD and RDM were casting Clemency and Vercure), and having to play flawlessly several times in a row until the RNG lined up for them to get the clear. Again, this is not something PEOPLE are doing in a general sense. It again is an argument that encounter designs need changing and Tank/DPS healing and mitigation needs nerfing, but these are exceptions that prove the rule, not rules in themselves.

...sorry. I'm just sick and tired of people seeing one example of a thing from EXTREMELY talented and dedicated people and suddenly deciding it's a game-wide problem when no one else is doing it and the amount of players that even CAN do it is ridiculously small, and most of THEM aren't bothering to try because it's just not worth the trouble. Once one team has done it and proved it's possible, there's literally no incentive for anyone else to try because it's just stupidly inefficient.

People need to stop using those cases as some wider example of reality.

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I agree with your premise, but that example is the dead horse beaten into dust already, and it doesn't even make sense to use it for any rational arguments to begin with.

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OP: I agree in part - Jobs within a role/subrole should not be TOO far apart in what they offer - but not in whole - what you're asking for is bland homogenization. FFXIV's combat system needs to be less rigid and allow for other forms of utility and such before that can seriously be factored in.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

To be fair, one group of 8 people is hardly "people are clearing ultimates". It's "people" in the absolute most technical sense of "more than one Human being", but in any realistic sense, it isn't. ONE GROUP doing a thing getting overblown to the point of abject ridiculousness.

NOTE: This isn't me saying encounter design doesn't need changing (I say all the time it does), nor me saying the game doesn't need to require more healing (I say all the time it does), nor me saying Tank and DPS healing and mitigation is fine where it is (I say all the time both need to be reduced) - but the amount of currency in hyperbole people have gotten from the fact one group that INTENSELY focused on a specific fight to figure out how to cheese mechanics with Cover and delayed Raise acceptance along with luck...is abjectly insane. That's like saying "Marathons are easy, a few thousands of people do them all the time", as if everyone was doing it. Or "Anyone can beat the AI Go master, after all, the best Human player in the world played 5 matches against it and won 1, so OBVIOUSLY anyone can do it!"

"But the Ultimate before was cleared with one healer!!" - Yes, also by cheesing things they could, bringing the most versatile Healer Job, having their Tank and DPS heal (like their PLD and RDM were casting Clemency and Vercure), and having to play flawlessly several times in a row until the RNG lined up for them to get the clear. Again, this is not something PEOPLE are doing in a general sense. It again is an argument that encounter designs need changing and Tank/DPS healing and mitigation needs nerfing, but these are exceptions that prove the rule, not rules in themselves.

...sorry. I'm just sick and tired of people seeing one example of a thing from EXTREMELY talented and dedicated people and suddenly deciding it's a game-wide problem when no one else is doing it and the amount of players that even CAN do it is ridiculously small, and most of THEM aren't bothering to try because it's just not worth the trouble. Once one team has done it and proved it's possible, there's literally no incentive for anyone else to try because it's just stupidly inefficient.

People need to stop using those cases as some wider example of reality.

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I agree with your premise, but that example is the dead horse beaten into dust already, and it doesn't even make sense to use it for any rational arguments to begin with.

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OP: I agree in part - Jobs within a role/subrole should not be TOO far apart in what they offer - but not in whole - what you're asking for is bland homogenization. FFXIV's combat system needs to be less rigid and allow for other forms of utility and such before that can seriously be factored in.

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Why is this grey healer talking about Ultimate solo-healing?

In most Savages/Ultimates the only reason why solo healing is hard is because some mechanics are healer-targeted which makes the mechanics harder, not the actual healing.

There are only two reasons why everyone hasn't already moved to 2/1/5 compositions after prog:

1. Standard comp is default on FFLogs
2. Some mechanics target healers (like light party stacks), and having only 1 healer makes the mechanic more random/harder.

The average static is more than capable of solo-healing if mechanics don't target healers. Again, the AVERAGE.

If you think that a third party against-the-ToS website and mechanics forcing you to bring 2 healers or the stack goes on someone random keeping 2 healer composition relevant is good design, then you will forever be gray. This is a game-wide problem. I can guarantee you that if FFLogs suddenly disappears a lot more statics would switch to 2/1/5. And if there aren't healer-targeting mechanics in any floor? Well, say goodbye to 2/2/4 forever: it allows the second healer to switch to a DPS job, which is way more fun. And it allows the first healer to actually need to heal, which is more fun.

ps: oh and inb4 someone goes "well the average static still needs 2 healers for prog". sure? but that's mostly for the second raise, not the actual healing. and having an entire role be only relevant during prog is exactly why SB WHM was seen as a disaster.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

OP: I agree in part - Jobs within a role/subrole should not be TOO far apart in what they offer - but not in whole - what you're asking for is bland homogenization. FFXIV's combat system needs to be less rigid and allow for other forms of utility and such before that can seriously be factored in.

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I'm not sure what yo mean by in whole, but I do mean within job roles and subroles.

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Originally Posted by Archeron

As Yoshi said if you want to enjoy a healer just go do Ultimates... Oh wait we don't need healers for Ultimates. Guess he means "Lul go play something else."

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Got a link to your healerless clear?

Don't bother sharing the Casual Player link, I know about that one and it's an outlier based on a specific comp for a group formed by some of the best players in the world.

I'm looking for videos that prove other comps with slightly less skilled players can also go healerless.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Got a link to your healerless clear?

Don't bother sharing the Casual Player link, I know about that one and it's an outlier based on a specific comp for a group formed by some of the best players in the world.

I'm looking for videos that prove other comps with slightly less skilled players can also go healerless.

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https://i.ibb.co/PccFpZL/CF7-DCD3-E-...4171583-BB.jpg

You never stray from the teachings, pastor! I love your sermons so much. They're always firmly grounded in the Bible and you use my favorite passage Luke 12:11 all the time!!

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Originally Posted by Renathras

...sorry. I'm just sick and tired of people seeing one example of a thing from EXTREMELY talented and dedicated people and suddenly deciding it's a game-wide problem when no one else is doing it and the amount of players that even CAN do it is ridiculously small, and most of THEM aren't bothering to try because it's just not worth the trouble. Once one team has done it and proved it's possible, there's literally no incentive for anyone else to try because it's just stupidly inefficient.

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Originally Posted by GaiusDrakon

There are only two reasons why everyone hasn't already moved to 2/1/5 compositions after prog:

1. Standard comp is default on FFLogs
2. Some mechanics target healers (like light party stacks), and having only 1 healer makes the mechanic more random/harder.

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To further clarify this point.

This used to be a really common occurrence and IMHO logs hiding non standard comps from the main rankings did more to limit the frequency of 1 healer or 1 tank runs than almost anything SE have managed to do over the years.

The standard comp switch happened during the creator tier if I remember correctly, and it was in response to it almost becoming the norm to drop a healer for easier turns like A9S if you wanted any shot at the rankings. You can confirm this yourself by comparing the number of non standard comp runs in 3.4 vs 3.5.