On Her Existence [6.4 Raid Story Spoilers]

One of the biggest revelations of the Pandaemonium story this patch was the existence of Ultima, the High Seraph long before the sundering occurred. She's the one who much of the troubles of auracite originate from, and I think her role has greatly graduated from just a final Alliance Raid boss to a true threat whose implications reach further than we may have thought.

Just one issue, if Ultima was present during the unsundered world, what came of her following the sundering? Was she simply sundered into 14 shards with the rest of Etheirys, or did she leave beforehand?

Going off the timeline of events, Ultima visited Etheriys and whether directly or not gave the Heart of Sabik to Athena. Following the sundering, no information is known until Saint Ajora would "summon" her in a bid to destroy the Holy Ydoran Empire. It's implied the other Zodiac Braves didn't quite agree with this method, and worked in some capacity with the Mothercrystal to seal Ultima away. Her legend would spread throughout mankind, and soon people would begin to worship her "feeding the extradimensional traveler's empty soul until it brimmed with a force completely alien to Her— a sense of self".

She was claimed to be a vessel of pure ruination, but through prayer and worship gained a sense of self.. If Athena did somehow directly gain the auracite from Ultima, it'd go directly against the idea that she is just ruination incarnate.

What it sounds like, to me, is that there's one of two things going on.

A) Ultima's pure ruination visited Eitherys, dropped off some auracite that Athena managed to find, and either fled / remained during the Sundering. She was then somehow summoned by Saint Ajora, and then through fear of her legend grew into a self-aware entity.

Or B) The Ultima that visited Eitherys pre-sundering and the Ultima Saint Ajora summoned are two separate entities, with the latter being a primal that became self-aware through devotion (see the Light of Klitia or Sect of Germonique).

Option B, if true, would imply that the real High Seraph is still somewhere out there. Whether in the cosmos, or hiding somewhere within the star, she appears to be a force to be reckoned with.

The only problem with Option B is the existence of her primal-auracite still holding the capabilities of things such as the Heart of Sabik. If it's not the genuine thing, should it even still work? Can a primal produce materiel like that?

Although I doubt this was the original plan, her being tied back to the Heart of Sabik does leave open the possibility of her influence being seen again, what with the Heart now being actively researched. The possibility of her returning in future content, potentially even MSQ given the current lead writer's history with Matsuno, seems likely.

I'm very curious what others might think of these points, or if there are some insights I'm missing. This may just be a nice way to tie back old plot threads, but perhaps there's more to it?

Jenova? Jenova!

Honestly do hope they go with a FFVII themed story with the focus as something Jenova esque being the antagonist.

Sorry Sephiroth fans but there is just something more intimidating with a planet eating "The Thing" than one of it's many thralls.

Reddit conspiracy thread with P12S spoiler https://old.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...um_theorywish/

Ultima the High Seraph was already established as being something of a composite of her Tactics self and Jenova back in Return to Ivalice.

This potential link nettles me greatly. As someone who is not a fan of Ivalice (yes, such people exist), having it referenced or brought up at every available opportunity is grating... and before you j'accuse me of being irrationally disdainful, you are correct but it's not limited just to that (I'm also rankled by 6.x being an extended IV reference).

Anyway, as you said there is the possibility of Ultima having dropped off the Heart of Sabik and then returning when called by Saint Ajora... but it's also possible the Heart comes from something else entirely, and our PC guessing it was the High Seraph came only from our limited knowledge. Given the devs' love of Ivalice, Athena's seraphic appearance as a boss, and the fact her Savage exclusive phase apparently uses another mix of Ultima's Perfection though, Ultima being the culprit seems much more likely than not. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but jamming another Ivalice reference into what's supposed to homage II rankles.

Personal grousing aside, I'm not sure if this is going to matter moving forward and if so how much. Ultima is supposed to have been destroyed in Return to Ivalice, even if her auracite are still potential hazards, and I'd like to hope the Sharlayans of all people are smart enough not to go messing with the Heart. From Meteion's account and actions there are few if any other living things in the known universe, so an alien threat seems unlikely with the current status quo; that only includes things she'd consider alive (so machina and aetheric constructs don't count), but whatever.

Keep in mind that Savage is often a retelling misinterpreted by somebody and their assumptions, meaning it's not canon. If anything, Ultima's Perfection being there is the NPC for Savage assuming that Athena IS connected to Ultima. There's always a chance that the auracite was in a meteorite that fell to the earth, and that's how Athena found it. We just don't know at this point, but it's definitely a plot hook I suspect they'll sink their teeth into much later.

Alternate theory which may need fine-tuning... what if Athena is Ultima?

Her stated aim is to become a god and ascend to a higher plane of existence. IIRC Ultima was also described as coming from another plane.

What if the memory of Athena in the Heart of Sabik is just a copy of the original, who succeeded and slipped away from the world entirely?

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Originally Posted by Cilia

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but jamming another Ivalice reference into what's supposed to homage II rankles.

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There's not a rule that says that they can only have elements of 1 Final Fantasy per story, and the connection to Ultima was more of a wrapping up of loose plot threads than a central key element to the raid imo. From what I remember playing Tactics and XII as a kid, Ultima didn't even get this level of backstory in the Ivalice games and a lot of this is probably XIV original anyway.

We know auracite causes people to lose control of themselves towards a goal, the Heart is called "auracite" in Japanese, the nasty auracite comes from Ultima, Lahabrea had the Heart in ARR, and Lahabrea was the only unsundered Ascian to not get real focus, background, and a pity story. In retrospect, combining all of the elements together is obvious.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Given the devs' love of Ivalice, Athena's seraphic appearance as a boss, and the fact her Savage exclusive phase apparently uses another mix of Ultima's Perfection though, Ultima being the culprit seems much more likely than not. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but jamming another Ivalice reference into what's supposed to homage II rankles.

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If only to throw another match into the bonfire, the main attack Athena does when she splits the arena is the same Ultima does when she's trying to melt the Alliance to death. The other angels circling the arena are also incredibly similar to the ones in the Ultima fight, however are slightly different.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

From Meteion's account and actions there are few if any other living things in the known universe, so an alien threat seems unlikely with the current status quo

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Unfortunately, a certain inspector's questline confirms that there is still life out there (assuming there's nothing special about them), as well as the additional quest for Omega in 6.1 (which granted, is only a signal).

I understand maybe not being a fan of Ivalice though, as being newer to the series though I just appreciate the usage of a rich setting with original elements mixed in, as long as it's not done all the time. The new MSQ writer however was Matsuno's second-in-command for the Ivalice raids, who also wrote Pandaemonium's story. I would suspect a lot of Ivalice/Dalmasca to be brought up in the common patches, assuming we don't just go to the nation at some point there.

At the end of the day the Ultima the High Seraph link is there both to further the homage to II and tie up the loose end of the Heart of Sabik; Athena takes a lot of cues from Emperor Mateus, who is implied to have made a bargain with Satan for power prior to the events of the game. As XIV lacks any true divine or demonic beings, a source for Athena's power and madness was required to further the parallel; Ultima is the closest thing there is to a truly demonic being in the setting, and that just happened to nicely tie up the loose end regarding the Heart of Sabik as well.

Of course, both Mateus and Athena ended up being worse than their benefactors, what with Mateus taking over Hell after his death and then coming back to finish the job, while Athena came a good sight closer to achieving true divinity and destroying the world than Ultima ever did.

It's not a big deal, but it still irritates me a little.

Does this suggest Ultima the High Seraph will make a comeback in future content? I don't think so, but never say never.

The struggle with an Ultima story is it's going to feel like a cop-out if it's just 'Ultima's behind it all', because... well, we already killed Ultima. A while ago. With relatively little fanfare, with little idea she was important to this part, and in side content that they're (both most likely, and hopefully) not going to make mandatory.

So while she's definitely going to be relevant to any continuing story about this, she's not going to be the main thing, if for no other reason than the fact they aren't going to want to make both a Stormblood alliance raid and an Endwalker normal raid both mandatory.

...which yeah, as I mentioned in another thread, means that if this road's leading anywhere it's to Jenova.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

The struggle with an Ultima story is it's going to feel like a cop-out if it's just 'Ultima's behind it all', because... well, we already killed Ultima. A while ago. With relatively little fanfare, with little idea she was important to this part, and in side content that they're (both most likely, and hopefully) not going to make mandatory.

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That again is why I'm wondering if the Ultima we killed hasn't been retconned to have only been a primal, given the information we now have about her and references of her being "summoned". I can only suppose time will tell, but if they wanted to bring her back in any meaningful capacity this would provide some explanation.

If I had to hazard a guess they're probably gonna take a cue from FFIV - The After Years at some point in the future since all other Threat-Level Villains has proven not capable of matching the WoL at this point.

So its likely maybe the Ivalice Raids are going to be required like how they turned Crystal Tower into a requirement.

I suspect its going to be a cosmic-threat villain this time involving the auracite, so maybe a mix of FFVII, FFIV- After Years & Tactics rolled into one.

If Ultima was present in the World Unsundered, then shards of her might still exist in other reflections of the Source.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Alternate theory which may need fine-tuning... what if Athena is Ultima?

Her stated aim is to become a god and ascend to a higher plane of existence. IIRC Ultima was also described as coming from another plane.

What if the memory of Athena in the Heart of Sabik is just a copy of the original, who succeeded and slipped away from the world entirely?

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[beats fists enthusiastically upon a table] More Athena content! More Athena content! More Athena content! Give her five more vocal tracks!

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Originally Posted by Kaliesto

So its likely maybe the Ivalice Raids are going to be required like how they turned Crystal Tower into a requirement.

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I actually suspect these days that they only pretended to make the Crystal Tower raids a requirement because of G'raha. That was a very visible reason to make it required, so we could all look at it and go 'oh yeah that makes sense', but the secret real reason was that it lets them use everything else the Crystal Tower raids introduced: Xande, Amon, the Fourth Calamity, and both the lore and events around the World of Darkness.

Basically, Endwalker needed the Crystal Tower raids for every single reason except G'raha Tia, so they used G'raha Tia to throw us off the scent.

I don't think they'll make the Ivalice raids required, because the only thing that'd give us here is Ultima, and they don't even need Ultima to tell a story about auracite coming from space; we know they don't, they just did it.


(Also, while we're generally immune to it by way of having already done these stories a lot of years before, making the Crystal Tower mandatory was actually a broadly hated choice to most of the playerbase, especially the new players that suddenly had even more stuff asked of them before reaching Heavensward. Ivalice would make the same barrier for Shadowbringers, and god knows how bad things will get when the most popular expansion is gated behind fairly disliked alliance raids.)

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I actually suspect these days that they only pretended...

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Ye gods, don't give me another reason to resent Endwalker!

...but it is a fairly logical conclusion, admittedly. As many admirers as he's managed to find, I always found G'raha a very strange choice for the role of the Exarch. He doesn't really match the type of character I've come to associate with Ishikawa, and that theory actually provides a decent explanation for his sudden inclusion.

But they've developed such a habit recently of grabbing whatever loose ends they can and haphazardly tying them together to make a contentious fit into previous parts of the story that I could also see them casting an eye over past content and going, "well, we've already locked in the CT as mandatory content for ShB, so why don't we make further use of it?"

It's a bit frustrating regardless, and I don't find these retcons as charming or satisfying as other parts of the fanbase seem to. It just makes me want to hit them over the head with a newspaper and go "would it kill you to hire some writers to oversee the story in the long-term?!"

Far more likely if the reason is needed to make the Ivalice Raids mandatory would solely be because full expansion zones are being placed in Southern Ilsabard and where we can handwave the Schrodinger's Cat of liberated or not and familiar with the WoL (and the player expected to already recognize the introduced regions/groups) for one country that dominates the politics and geography of the region but not two. Dialogue flags could be toggled for having completed Bojza or not. It would come down to if they needed to use Dalmasca if they want to use Southern Ilsabard as a setting or if they can handwave a large enough landmass that only Hien needs to interact with them. Then again, Estinien entered the MSQ with the ARR time bubble handwave, as awkward as it was, so the same could be done for Ashe and Fran. Gabranth, however, would never become main MSQ because Bojza won't be mandatory, which removes him and his legion as potential villains. Ivalice as a raid isn't needed to explain auracite of probable extraterrestrial origin that instead of white auracite using Moenbryda's recipe.

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Originally Posted by Denishia

Far more likely if the reason is needed to make the Ivalice Raids mandatory would solely be because full expansion zones are being placed in Southern Ilsabard and where we can handwave the Schrodinger's Cat of liberated or not and familiar with the WoL.

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And possibly because expecting players to run ST and WoD more than they already have on a daily basis is starting to come dangerously close to violating the Geneva Convention's stipulations on mental torture.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

...but it is a fairly logical conclusion, admittedly. As many admirers as he's managed to find, I always found G'raha a very strange choice for the role of the Exarch. He doesn't really match the type of character I've come to associate with Ishikawa, and that theory actually provides a decent explanation for his sudden inclusion.

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Ishikawa wrote the Crystal Tower series. FFIII references aside, he's her character.

Plus, he's the only character who is in the position to end up where he was.

It's possible that the decision to make CT mandatory was undertaken for more factors than just letting G'raha into the Scions, but that doesn't mean the decision was made far back enough to influence him being brought back into the story as the Exarch in the first place.

Maybe plans to reference Amon and the World of Darkness led to bringing back young G'raha as a side effect. Maybe it was the other way around. Or maybe they just had this generally growing pile of cool ideas that couldn't be implemented because it hinged on familiarity with CT, so they decided to cut the knot and just make the story required.

However, I think it relatively unlikely that they did it just because Amon is relevant to Endwalker. Relevance is not enough, or Omega should have been mandatory as well. The criterion is whether the events of the prerequisite story must happen first to make the other story's situation possible, and our encounter with a cloned Amon in Syrcus Tower has no direct bearing on our dealings with the real Amon in Endwalker.

Compare the placement they chose for the "road block" forcing completion of CT. New players have to do it before Heavensward, of course, but if you were past that point already when completion became mandatory, you hit that requirement not at the end of Stormblood (where it would familiarise you with G'raha Tia before you meet the Exarch) but between 5.2 and 5.3, just in time to ensure that G'raha is locked inside the tower before it's time to get him out again.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Ishikawa wrote the Crystal Tower series. FFIII references aside, he's her character.

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Ah, really? ...so he is (thanks, Google.) I remembered reading her writing credits and being surprised at how often she was behind the stories I enjoyed the most, so I suppose I scarcely bothered to notice the one I didn't, lol. Pretty ironic, though! But apparently she was also responsible for rejigging a large chunk of the EW story right towards the end, so... perhaps not, in hindsight.

I don't know if he necessarily was the only character to end up in that position; I mean, if you're talking the mechanics of using the Crystal Tower and whatnot, sure, but going off what Ishikawa said in an interview he wasn't automatically chosen because they were using the CT in the first place, but that they decided to use that entire part of the story with him in it to play the role of steward in the First (which was vaguely floating around in my memory, and after double checking I didn't dream it I now realise also answers the query of Amon/ Xande coming first, oops.)

You are not required to run alliance roulette on a daily basis. If you're burned out then just don't run it for several days.

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Originally Posted by Zero-ELEC

If Ultima was present in the World Unsundered, then shards of her might still exist in other reflections of the Source.

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Yeah, I'm beginning to think that Ultima or something else related to her is likely to be the next big threat in the story.

The background for the Final Days mentioned that there was some kind of sound coming from the center of the earth. The initial assumption the playerbase made at the time was that this sound was the source of the Final Days itself, but it turned out to be Meteion doing her thing from the edge of the universe. But the Final Days likely had some effect on Ultima or again, something related to her, just like how the Sundering probably split her too. For all we know, Ultima and the auracites may have been the major thing that Azem had been pursuing off-screen the entire time we've been in Elpis.

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Originally Posted by Yuella

You are not required to run alliance roulette on a daily basis. If you're burned out then just don't run it for several days.

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...alternatively, they could quit allowing people to cheese dungeon selection with ilvl manipulation and include raids as part of the MSQ instead of defaulting to the current party line of "numb yourself to sheer tedium or don't do it."