Ancient lore from Korean liveletter Q&A

The Korean community recently got an open Q&A session during a liveletter and asked a bunch of questions about the Ancients specifically that clears up some long-standing ambiguous points. There's a translation here, but it's a little messy (I think their English might be a spotty, though it's still helpful) so I went over the Korean with toktogi and compared to make something a bit more straightforward.

According to the preamble, all questions are answered by Banri Oda.

"Question: Why is there so little difference in size, intellect, and power between the people of the rejoined Source and the First? With the difference between Ancients and modern humans, I would have thought people in the Source should be stronger, but they don't seem that different. Do all 14 worlds have to be rejoined for them to become like the Ancients?

Answer: I think that even if all 14 worlds were rejoined, the density of souls would return to normal, but their bodies would not. (After all, their species itself has diverged...) That's why the Ascians plan was to sacrifice all life on the rejoined world to Zodiark so everything could be regenerated.


Question: I'm curious about how aging works for the Ancients. Emet-Selch seems to have known Lahabrea as a younger man before he grew older.* How old are these characters in relative terms and compared to normal people? You'd expect Venat to be an old woman, but she looks quite young. And how do the Ancients transition from childhood to adulthood?

Answer: As Emet-Selch said, "In the beginning, everyone lived nigh for eternity." The Ancients had vastly longer lives than contemporary people. I'll give some examples of the age relationship between them.

Emet-Selch: Someone who has fully reached maturity.
Hythlodaeus: The same age as Emet-Selch (or so he claims...)
Venat: Older, but younger than Lahabrea (or so she claims...)
Lahabrea: An old man.
Themis: A youth who has barely reached legal adulthood.

As for the second part of the question, although the Ancients grow more slowly than modern humans, childhood still passes very quickly relative to their long lives, and they spend most of their lives appearing as late adolescents and young adults. That being said, their body does physically age as normal if they grow old enough, but since creation magic has grown so advanced, even an aged person can maintain their physical youth if they try. Perhaps it depends on whether they've accepted the idea of themselves as old.


Question: What are the criteria for being selected for the seat of Elidibus on the Convocation?

Answer: The role of the seat of Elidibus is to monitor the other 13 seats, moderate their behavior, and reconcile conflicts between them. As all members of the Convocation are very knowledgeable and experienced, they can be stubborn about what they believe. So the key criteria to become Elidibus is to command their universal respect. This can be through knowledge, experience, sheer power, personality... It depends on the makeup of the Convocation at the time."


*not sure quite what they're saying here since we never seen Emet specifically with Pandaemonium Lahabrea - maybe they're talking about how he was presented as younger earlier in the MSQ...?

This is all pretty much exactly what I figured. Which is probably good, I'd hate for several months down the line to be doing some lore research and go 'actually this was only explained in a Korean-language live letter'.

Unrelated piece of Au Ra lore from the same Q&A: Limbal rings are apparently something added via magic for cultural reasons rather than being natural, which is why you can change them at the barber.

Kind of a silly handwave IMO.

Lahabreha said that the only two who seemed to have noticed when he shed off the part of himself that had been tainted by Athena was Igeyorhm and Emet-Selch. So that's probably where that part came from.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Lahabreha said that the only two who seemed to have noticed when he shed off the part of himself that had been tainted by Athena was Igeyorhm and Emet-Selch. So that's probably where that part came from.

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Makes sense. Emet has always been a very observant person, and it's implied that Igeyorhm and Lahabrea have apparently always been close (siblings perhaps?), so of course Igeyorhm would notice.

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Originally Posted by Lurina

Unrelated piece of Au Ra lore from the same Q&A: Limbal rings are apparently something added via magic for cultural reasons rather than being natural, which is why you can change them at the barber.

Kind of a silly handwave IMO.

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So, JoJo is also a plastic surgeon. Neat, and also slightly disturbing considering the introductory quest. Perhaps there's truth to the rumors of the Slasher of Limsa Lominsa, after all?

There's something ringing around my head about the aging bit. Especifically that they grow OLD.

We intuited from Emet's rose-tinted view that the Ancients kinda reached a point and then they stopped. And were immortal. But aging, especially past a "prime" is a big point of mortality, and that's not even getting into the multiple myths about people who attained immortality without the eternal youth as a required secondary superpower and... it's not pretty. Did Ancients have to deal with osteoporosis? incontinence? Senility? And while Lahabrea isn't an OLD man, he IS grey, he has wrinkles, and he's still "young" enough to be in charge of Pandaemonium and hold a seat at the Convocation. While Venat may be retired, it also claims she's younger than him (and her white hair kinda masks if she were a woman of a certain age)...

Would there be a point in which the Ancients would be more willing to "return to the star" because your body and mind are just too old?

Thanks for the translation! It's nice to have matters like Elidibus' actual role and why exactly Venat appears to be considerably younger than Lahabrea despite aging off the Convocation clarified (I mean, I feel as if we already know why lol, but I appreciate the explanation behind aging in general. Mildly curious at what that small jab at Hyth may mean... is he older than he appears?)

I wish we could get more tidbits though, because I find Ancient lore fascinating in general. If only they'd make an official lore thread akin to the Dragonspeak Dictionary and such for them...

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Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

There's something ringing around my head about the aging bit. Especifically that they grow OLD...

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My take is, eventually, after a very, very, very long time, the potency of their aether would begin to wane, and they would start to age in a manner that would affect their bodies and how they look, akin to mortals. I think that it would take an exceptional amount of time to approach the levels of aging that you describe, though, and mentally they would have been prepared, and willingly chosen to, return to the star long before that point, having likely achieved their life's purpose (whatsoever that may be) in the course of their already enormous lifespan.

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Originally Posted by Lurina

Unrelated piece of Au Ra lore from the same Q&A: Limbal rings are apparently something added via magic for cultural reasons rather than being natural, which is why you can change them at the barber.

Kind of a silly handwave IMO.

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shit lore tbh. why did it need an explanation?

As a Tolkien fan I have two models -

elves who reach that middle life stage and never get the problems of aging. They also differ from mortals in not growing bored or tired of the world, so the unchanging eternity of their lifespan isn’t a problem as long as the surroundings match. Athrabeth goes further with the absence of Platonic Ideals that set them apart from how mortals see the world. Then Númenoreans, which are closer to the literary fantasy tropes the Ancients are dealing with. Still human with extended lifespan and magically heightened immune systems and the ability to retain the middle age vigor for about two centuries until the symptoms of old age set in rapidly at the last decade. At which point the ‘High Men’ could willingly relinquish their lives and die peacefully of their own volition. Sounds familiar. Of course they live in a paradise terraformed just for them but said paradise is within spitting distance of Elf Paradise with ‘immortality until the planet dies’ - naturally jealousy sets in, death is no longer peacefully accepted but avoided until dementia and sickness weaken it to unavoidably. Civil War, Atlantis. And ugly fandom debates on which side was right and tossing around accusations of euthanasia that are the equal to XIV’s Sundering Debate.

Unless this “their outward appearance of aging is tied to their self image” implies that their physical bodies are malleable in ways beyond that of aging and could include gender and appearance. (And which point the Ancients are the Valar but of course they were)

In seriousness, Ancient biology wasn’t a match for mortal biology even if the aether soul density was equal, but there’s probably an aether usage to retain youth that you don’t bother with if you’re an old enough Ancient that everyone knows you’d just being vain or uncomfortably self-conscious about your looks changing to keep it up.

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Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

We intuited from Emet's rose-tinted view that the Ancients kinda reached a point and then they stopped. And were immortal. But aging, especially past a "prime" is a big point of mortality, and that's not even getting into the multiple myths about people who attained immortality without the eternal youth as a required secondary superpower and... it's not pretty. Did Ancients have to deal with osteoporosis? incontinence? Senility? And while Lahabrea isn't an OLD man, he IS grey, he has wrinkles, and he's still "young" enough to be in charge of Pandaemonium and hold a seat at the Convocation. While Venat may be retired, it also claims she's younger than him (and her white hair kinda masks if she were a woman of a certain age)...

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

My take is, eventually, after a very, very, very long time, the potency of their aether would begin to wane, and they would start to age in a manner that would affect their bodies and how they look, akin to mortals. I think that it would take an exceptional amount of time to approach the levels of aging that you describe, though, and mentally they would have been prepared, and willingly chosen to, return to the star long before that point, having likely achieved their life's purpose (whatsoever that may be) in the course of their already enormous lifespan.

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Sorry, this might be the fault of my translation, but to be clear, the quote is saying they can choose not to cosmetically (as well as meaningfully, I think?) age using creation magic in their modern era. The exact phrasing is "someone (using creation magic) may maintain their youth enough to be mistaken for a young person".

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Originally Posted by Denishia

Unless this “their outward appearance of aging is tied to their self image” implies that their physical bodies are malleable in ways beyond that of aging and could include gender and appearance. (And which point the Ancients are the Valar but of course they were)

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There's a quote from Themis in 6.2 where you're discussing the possibility of someone disguising themselves as Lahabrea where he says that the Ancients are able to "control their forms to a limited extent", so it's probably that.

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Originally Posted by Lurina

Sorry, this might be the fault of my translation, but to be clear, the quote is saying they can choose not to cosmetically (as well as possibly physically?) age using creation magic. The exact phrasing is "someone using (creation magic) may maintain their youth enough to be mistaken for a young person".

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Oh, no, that came through - I was referring to Ancients like Lahabrea, who (I'm assuming, anyway) opt not to put any such measures in place in the first place.

Kinda just sounds like what Thancred and Y'shtola supposedly do to keep themselves looking younger than they really are. Something something Y'shtola is a Christmas Cake.

I mean it's heavily implied fantasias, like everything in game (including freaking party finder now), has an in game, Canon explanation and literally exists. That people use magic to alter appearances seems logical to me.

Just wanted to share this - the NieR Reincarnation crossover event with Hades was recently brought back, but brought with it a new weapon description:

https://i.imgur.com/d8GIABy.jpg

Not enough, I think, to warrant its own post, so I figured it would work here for "recent Ancient lore." Not a lot of hard new info, but it seems to confirm Erich was killed in the Sundering and Lahabrea was essentially driven to madness trying to get him back. Emet made a conscious decision watching him to preserve his own mind.

Makes sense, as much as Lahabrea tried to hide his emotions, he truly loved Eric and would do anything for him. Takes him from a "mustache twirling villain for the sake of it" to "a grieving father gone insane from trying to get his son back."

Ouch. Damn. OK fine they got me to finally feel bad for Lahabreha.

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Originally Posted by Brinne

Just wanted to share this - the NieR Reincarnation crossover event with Hades was recently brought back, but brought with it a new weapon description:

https://i.imgur.com/d8GIABy.jpg

Not enough, I think, to warrant its own post, so I figured it would work here for "recent Ancient lore." Not a lot of hard new info, but it seems to confirm Erich was killed in the Sundering and Lahabrea was essentially driven to madness trying to get him back. Emet made a conscious decision watching him to preserve his own mind.

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See that sorta contradicts what Erichthonios said though. He deliberately didn't participate in the creation of Zodiark but rather passed back into the life stream despite the 14's directive. That means that Lahabrea I think was driven mad by having to pick between eventually sacrificing his son's soul to bring back everyone else (as was his duty), and the fact his son was lost forever.

Zelos is the MNK weapon from the Hades Ex fight.

The two spellcasters left after 'the battle that shattered the world' is reference to the Unsundered. So if the first of them is Lahabrea ('one whom has broken his own heart'), then the other must be Emet. Which fits, given the reference to 'passion burning it to ash', the same turn of phrase that Emet used to describe Lahabrea in Tales from the Shadows.

It looks like they are implying that Emet performed the same soul splitting act that Lahabrea had done to himself after being corrupted by Athena in the following line (does this count as 'sundering' your own soul?) It's a bit of a strange one, because it sounds like Emet used his soul crystal regularly to avoid losing himself. So I'm not really sure why this would be necessary.