What is the point of arguing whether having less grind or more grind is good design?

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Break free of the cycle, fellow FF14 enjoyer.

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The truth is Relics have never been good content.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

The truth is Relics have never been good content.

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Agreed. ARR being the one exception to that. Having the option to nuke that progress entirely to skip the first step to the Atma weapon, along with Diadem killed this content.

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I believe we should see the return of exploratory zones, without Relics tied to them. Just give us another banging story arc, Square. You know you want to.

That said, Relics were always meant to be a grind. A brag, harder content that isn't easy to obtain. Similar to Ultimate and Savage glam weapons and mounts. FFXIV has a shocking lack of those as is, compared to other MMORPGs. And the list is seemingly shrinking. By no means do I wish for this game to become another WoW grindfest, yet all the same, no grinds at all or cheevo brags is far from fun in my view.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Agreed. ARR being the one exception to that. Having the option to nuke that progress entirely to skip the first step to the Atma weapon, along with Diadem killed this content.

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You Mean the Heavensward Animus...unless Im dumb and didnt know you could skip the 1st step of the ARR Zeta.

Leisure time truly is a curse. We must hustle harder.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

You Mean the Heavensward Animus...unless Im dumb and didnt know you could skip the 1st step of the ARR Zeta.

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You got it right. Nuke the Zeta to skip first step of HW relic.

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Originally Posted by TowaIsBestGirl

I believe we should see the return of exploratory zones, without Relics tied to them. Just give us another banging story arc, Square. You know you want to.

That said, Relics were always meant to be a grind. A brag, harder content that isn't easy to obtain. Similar to Ultimate and Savage glam weapons and mounts. FFXIV has a shocking lack of those as is, compared to other MMORPGs. And the list is seemingly shrinking. By no means do I wish for this game to become another WoW grindfest, yet all the same, no grinds at all or cheevo brags is far from fun in my view.

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Relics are the casual weapon not a bragging right. They indicate time invested, not skill, what is there to brag about other than your ability to devote approximately 40 hours to a step it doing them current and pre-ew? This isn't me hating on relics, relics are one of my primary motivators because I am super casual, but I aint doing them to brag. I just want the glow and the thing to do.

I agree with you that they definitely shouldn't ever tie the relic into the exploratory zones though, because Eureka remains the worst content they've ever added to this game and while bozja was broadly a lot better, DR is probably my 2nd most hated content (maybe beat out by secure). I would have probably never bothered with Eureka at all if the relic wasn't tied to it. Probably would have completed the bozja story and then never touched it again if it was sans relic (well until I used it to get exp on reaper back during ew launch I guess).

I too wish people would put more thought into how much fun content is to do and less into demanding relics to be grindier. Unfortunately we are talking about an MMO and many of its players do not actually know what they find fun so if they dont have the game to tell them what to do they are suddenly dazed and confused.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

I too wish people would put more thought into how much fun content is to do and less into demanding relics to be grindier. Unfortunately we are talking about an MMO and many of its players do not actually know what they find fun so if they dont have the game to tell them what to do they are suddenly dazed and confused.

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And I wish people would just leave the relic alone and do the content they think is fun for them instead.

Everyone accepts that the savage and ultimate weapons is not for them when they don't like raiding, but the grinding related weapon has to be available for everyone? Especially when it is just tomestones and no actual new content had to be developed? Just give me my "grinding old content" relic and let them develop new, fun content which you and me can enjoy on top of it.

Grinding in itself isnt fun..but:
1) It creates content - a goal to reach.
2) It can promote social interactions - force players to group up and teamwork.
3) It takes time and effort, the reward "feels" more earned..

The purpose of grinding in games
is to make content last longer.

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

2) It can promote social interactions - force players to group up and teamwork.

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And here folks, is what the average player does not want in an MMO designed to be played.. you guess it.. WITH OTHER PEOPLE.

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

Grinding in itself isnt fun..but:
1) It creates content - a goal to reach.
2) It can promote social interactions - force players to group up and teamwork.
3) It takes time and effort, the reward "feels" more earned..

The purpose of grinding in games
is to make content last longer.

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It can & can’t,

It’s difficult to measure that with “fun”,

Ideally individuals tends to rush with grind & thus would relapse all the same with “not enough content” and falll in limbo.

There’s no right & wrong,

It’s best we don’t lose sight in having fun with the game on other separate assets than just grind grind.

Grind can be fulfilling & relaxing while also dull, boring & inflict mental burnouts that would empower further game dissatisfaction.

It all depends how you look into it personally.

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Originally Posted by Vencio

It can & can’t,

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A grind is there to make progress slower, and progress is a target to aim for. Which is a way to keep you playing. If the game is fun, playing is fun. So this purely depends on the tasks themselve, if they are fun, the grind usualy also is.

But there is a point where grinds can get excessive. ARR was quite excessive on that, but makes the reward (although now glam only) worth it at that time.

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Originally Posted by Vencio

It’s difficult to measure that with “fun”,

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As fun is an oppinion, you cannot measure the fun value itself. But you can measure it acros people. The more people saying its fun, is a good sign, but at the same time, people saying it isnt is an equal measurement.

20% fun, and 20% hate is healthier than 50% fun and 50% hate (hate causes people to leave, so in the first case 80% is fine with it although 60% most likely are doing it more as a side task and arent forcing themselve the hard grind).

But the problem here is: people want other tasks to be given to them for the relic weapon (this is that 20% like group). While the other 20% wants this simple grind to exist. The remaining 60% still doesnt care as much, but as they arent affected anyway, they barely care, but they also wont value the effort in this for those that went this far.

This makes the 20% that find grinding fun, consider going to hating it instead. The 50% split can then turn to 30%/70% quickly. Which is very unhealthy.

Therefor, a grind must exist to some degree, as it is guaranteed to add fun, as long as you are never forced to do this content (which you arent). Heavy grinds are fine as they are there purely to cater the dedicated, which is exactly what they should do. That other group that hates the grinds in this case just needs to live with it. And they can, plenty of games already have such 'unreachable' content.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

And here folks, is what the average player does not want in an MMO designed to be played.. you guess it.. WITH OTHER PEOPLE.

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I’m struggling to understand why people seem to be so against content with other people in an MMO

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Originally Posted by Blossoming

I’m struggling to understand why people seem to be so against content with other people in an MMO

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Because other people have expectations. And people fear they are not able to fulfill them. If you are not doing enough dps, don't pull big enough, fail too many mechanics people will get mad at you. And to avoid that rejection they don't want to play with other people in an MMO.

And it could be argued that the people who demand perfection from other players don't want to play with other people as well. People make mistakes. If they can't accept that they are better off playing with AI companions as well.

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Originally Posted by Tint

Because other people have expectations. And people fear they are not able to fulfill them. If you are not doing enough dps, don't pull big enough, fail too many mechanics people will get mad at you. And to avoid that rejection they don't want to play with other people in an MMO.

And it could be argued that the people who demand perfection from other players don't want to play with other people as well. People make mistakes. If they can't accept that they are better off playing with AI companions as well.

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I’m sure it’s different for everyone but I’ve played actively since 1.0 and I can count on one hand the amount of times I’ve encountered behavior like that though the RP/Mod community is where the real toxicity lies if anything. I’m sure everyone has different experiences for sure but to think group content should be avoided in an mmo because someone somewhere might say you have low dps with such strict ToS to where most people don’t even talk in pugs anymore is silly

To me EW Manderville content should be compared to SHB Bozja, as the journey you the player go through to obtain your Relics with every side bit of content you get with it.

" SHB Bozja Relics " had everything.
Great Rewards, even furniture, Triple triad cards, Raids. A Grind with peril, difficulty that we traversed together not alone. Partyfinders to setup farming. Even full video guides. A sense of prestige and achievement having done this. With a nice good story added that I wasn't expecting to even get because my Job was so fun to play there during Shadowbringers.

Though not everyone plays one Job to only farm 1 Relic. Worse? if you want to farm them all, that becomes tedious... So Square listened, and incomes...

" EW Manderville Relics ", complete boredom.
Rewards didn't even had furniture or Triple triad cards. No raids. Grind had no peril, no difficulty to traverse together. No need to partyfinder this, no guides it's just empty. And with it being so easy, there's no prestige no achievement feel to having done this. I sense no adventure nor journey here (ironic, cause we're literally going to the moon), Jobs have been made dumber. Even the story amount is just a big comedy-skit... that coulda been a side story.

Not every Relic grind needs to be as long or hard as SHB's Bozja Relics. But EW's Relic grind? has Jobs been made more Boring, through Boring repeated content, set at Boring difficulty, makes to no surprise? for a Boring grind. This feels " Lazy " compared to SHB. It definitely does not need to be as grindy as SHB, but they coulda done way better then this in so many ways...

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

To me EW Manderville content should be compared to SHB Bozja, as the journey you the player go through to obtain your Relics with every side bit of content you get with it.

" SHB Bozja Relics " had everything.
Great Rewards, even furniture, Triple triad cards, Raids. A Grind with peril, difficulty that we traversed together not alone. Partyfinders to setup farming. Even full video guides. A sense of prestige and achievement having done this. With a nice good story added that I wasn't expecting to even get because my Job was so fun to play there during Shadowbringers.

Though not everyone plays one Job to only farm 1 Relic. Worse? if you want to farm them all, that becomes tedious... So Square listened, and incomes...

" EW Manderville Relics ", complete boredom.
Rewards didn't even had furniture or Triple triad cards. No raids. Grind had no peril, no difficulty to traverse together. No need to partyfinder this, no guides it's just empty. And with it being so easy, there's no prestige no achievement feel to having done this. I sense no adventure nor journey here (ironic, cause we're literally going to the moon), Jobs have been made dumber. Even the story amount is just a big comedy-skit... that coulda been a side story.

Not every Relic grind needs to be as long or hard as SHB's Bozja Relics. But EW's Relic grind? has Jobs been made more Boring, through Boring repeated content, set at Boring difficulty, makes to no surprise? for a Boring grind. This feels " Lazy " compared to SHB. It definitely does not need to be as grindy as SHB, but they coulda done way better then this in so many ways...

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This is the type of grind that I personally endorse & most of us can agree with (ShB Bozja’s) since it’s social, worked on over time, included scenarios, felt engaging & ultimately purposeful.

It saddens me EW wasn’t taken into this direction & can agree it is indeed far boredom & less purposeful.

In my opinion, the only true "unique" relic was Eureka. There was no way to earn it outside of running that content. Sure, Bozja had a few steps "locked in" but most of it was optional and could be earned elsewhere:

- ARR: run dungeons, FATEs, grind tomestones for various tokens (Alexandrite maps, oils, atma books, etc), run old content for light farm.
- HW: run dungeons, FATEs, grind tomestones for various tokens (aether oil, umbrite, ink, clusters, beast tribe items), run more old content dungeons/trials
- SB: Eureka only
- ShB: Grind tomestones from running old content, earn tokens in Bozja or from FATEs, run leveling roulette, run ARR/HW/SB 24-man raids for tokens and HoH for tokens

Other than SB, all of the other ones focus around running old content... so how is grinding tomestones for the EW relic really any different than these previous relics? Instead of grinding 1500 of them, do you want to buy 5 100 tomestone items, 2 250 tomestone items and 1 500 tomestone item and turn them into various NPCs to progress the quest?


Same with HW and ARR relics. Much of those were all about obtaining certain items by either spending poetics or beast tribe quests, etc. ARR mixed in FATEs, Levequests, etc. It was sort of a "capstone" questline.
However, SB relics remain the only relic that has the entire content all wrapped up in those four Eureka zones.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

Other than SB, all of the other ones focus around running old content... so how is grinding tomestones for the EW relic really any different than these previous relics? Instead of grinding 1500 of them, do you want to buy 5 100 tomestone items, 2 250 tomestone items and 1 500 tomestone item and turn them into various NPCs to progress the quest?

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Because Endwalker's Relic grind to me came with so little Content with it compared to the previous Relic grind of Shadowbringers. No furniture, no extra glamour, no cards, no raids, the only thing we do is tome farm with my job made less engaging in EW. With the difficulty being non-existing? it truly feels like I achieved nothing. Just a shiny weapon glam that I personally don't even like that doesn't even increase my ilvl, so that's also pointless.

Making a grind tedious and difficult for the sake of making it tedious and difficult is not good, but they could have done way more. EW's relic grind has at least compared to the previous expansion of SHB amounted to laziness and just a lot less of everything to go with obtaining a Relic. That's how it is different to me, it's less fun, less rewarding and a lot more boring to do.

I think I’m just so bored of really only having daily roulettes to do, I don’t even do them anymore I just sort of think about it…..then just am like nah and log off and tbh I hate that it’s how I feel atm because I really want to enjoy XIV but it’s been so hard for me lately

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Originally Posted by Blossoming

I think I’m just so bored of really only having daily roulettes to do, I don’t even do them anymore I just sort of think about it…..then just am like nah and log off and tbh I hate that it’s how I feel atm because I really want to enjoy XIV but it’s been so hard for me lately

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Repetitiveness does kill the fun.
When there is little to do - its better to do other stuff :)

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

Repetitiveness does kill the fun.
When there is little to do - its better to do other stuff :)

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Like what, it’s all the same just a different reskin and Ilvl. I was excited for Sanctuary island but it didn’t really feel satisfying to me as much as I tried to love it since I was obsessed with animal crossing. I even started just making up my own player held events which went pretty well and had large turnouts. I actively raided since ARR with the same group mostly and then shb came along and most of the people I knew got tired of the game and left, I stuck around and still am but just kind of feeling it now myself since EW. I wish there was some varying content that was targeted more towards mid level groups

How far are we from FanFest + next expansion?

I can relate to Blossoming,

Otherwise we’re in for a long drought period with this game throughout the Summer & likely rest of Fall.

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Originally Posted by Blossoming

Like what, it’s all the same just a different reskin and Ilvl. I was excited for Sanctuary island but it didn’t really feel satisfying to me as much as I tried to love it since I was obsessed with animal crossing. I even started just making up my own player held events which went pretty well and had large turnouts. I actively raided since ARR with the same group mostly and then shb came along and most of the people I knew got tired of the game and left, I stuck around and still am but just kind of feeling it now myself since EW. I wish there was some varying content that was targeted more towards mid level groups

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I was more thinking about doing other stuff in real life or play other games until new content comes....
I know people who only play to chat with people ingame ..( that's self made content too).

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

I was more thinking about doing other stuff in real life or play other games until new content comes....
I know people who only play to chat with people ingame ..( that's self made content too).

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I work a pretty busy job and I have a toddler but even so XIV still bores me with what little free time I do get. I’ve currently been actively playing XI and ESO again, even tried WoW for the first time tbh only reason I keep my sub is because I do run a venue and to keep my house. If it wasn’t for that I’d probably be unsubscribed atm

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Originally Posted by Blossoming

I work a pretty busy job and I have a toddler but even so XIV still bores me with what little free time I do get. I’ve currently been actively playing XI and ESO again, even tried WoW for the first time tbh only reason I keep my sub is because I do run a venue and to keep my house. If it wasn’t for that I’d probably be unsubscribed atm

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Do what you want and what makes you happy :),
at the end of the day a game is just a game after all.

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

Do what you want and what makes you happy :),
at the end of the day a game is just a game after all.

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Except I literally do, is there some transcript you all read from about playing other games and to leave if you have any gripes? Why is it wrong to wish for actual engaging content in a game I’ve really enjoyed until recently?

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Originally Posted by Blossoming

Except I literally do, is there some transcript you all read from about playing other games and to leave if you have any gripes? Why is it wrong to wish for actual engaging content in a game I’ve really enjoyed until recently?

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It's not wrong to wish or want change.
but what can we do?

I agree, it's pointless. Unironically if you want engaging content or a sense of meaningful character progression and you're "caught up" in XIV, just end your subscription and play something else. I've started playing an old school mmo private server and the difference between that game and this one is like night and day. The game itself is harsher but the community formed around it is way better, and every class brings something unique to the party and feels valued and necessary, and there are resources that players actually read and use because they're not coddled 24/7 by people who enable them and carry them through content. I signed out of that game and came back to this one for an hour to do a puppets bunker and jesus christ man. The queue reset 3 times because our people can't even be bothered to click commence, and then the run itself took like 50 minutes because everyone played like they were asleep, and at one point we had to beg a tank to just... press provoke...

I know it's a bit off topic but MAN it's so bad, just play something else. Fuck it.

Go back to Lost Ark, you know that game is better to play don't you? :)