balance in the new PvP jobs

Ever since SE made huge changes with the PvP and essentially overhauled the whole thing every job has gotten their own new hotbars and the flow of frontlines matches has changed. Sprint is no longer on cooldown which means that using it is no longer a tactical decision, univesal actions like health potions and a shield change the rotation from combat to recovery, and all these things I think are nice but I think there's some issues with the PvP especially in the context of frontlines.

Namely, the DRK/DRG meta plaguing the game, now that every job has their own way of playing (with the PvP LBs not even the same as the ones from PvE as well) these two jobs have become the single most overpowered jobs because of their actions and it's at the point where the team with more of these wins the match, especially if they are premades.

I miss when the LB of the jobs was similar to the PvE (tanks gave everyone nearby a damage reduction buff, ranged physical DPS shot large lasers, melee DPS dealt a lot of damage to single targets) because now we are stuck with something that just doesn't work. The game used to be balanced, maybe it was not as interesting and dated but still it was 100% balanced. I hate that I like how varied and exciting a lot of the changes made because I wish we could change it back to when the variation between the jobs was very minimal and playing any job in frontlines was still viable, I used to be addicted to playing frontlines all day for years and hate to have to log off and play other games just because of how broken it is.

Is it possible to see some huge changes made to the PvP in the near future? I want to keep queuing for frontlines without the fear that a dozen DRK/DRGs on a team will dominate a match purely based on exploits the devs overlooked.

If sweeping changes are made, they will be because of CC, not FL.

On the other hand PVE LBs are bland and generic.

It's also weird I keep hearing about the DRK/DRG combos of death, and while I don't doubt that it's deadly and whatnot, I don't see that much abuse of those in regular daily frontlines. Most people seem to play whatever the hell they like or want. Maybe it's also a datacenter thing.

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Originally Posted by TofuDofu

Ever since SE made huge changes with the PvP and essentially overhauled the whole thing....

....Namely, the DRK/DRG meta plaguing the game, now that every job has their own way of playing (with the PvP LBs not even the same as the ones from PvE as well) these two jobs have become the single most overpowered jobs because of their actions and it's at the point where the team with more of these wins the match, especially if they are premades.

Is it possible to see some huge changes made to the PvP in the near future? I want to keep queuing for frontlines without the fear that a dozen DRK/DRGs on a team will dominate a match purely based on exploits the devs overlooked.

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It seems a lot of players have very similar frustrations. And first ask for sweeping changes to the game to be made before exploring all the available counterplay.

For example, did you know that you could mark the most troublesome DRKs on the opposing team and

- use a SGE LB to make the whole DRK/DRK set-up obsolete every single time

- use chiten and guard so that the incoming DRG LB and DRK setups allow you an instant kill, thus reducing the enemies battle high by half and reducing the potency of future set-ups

- use AST LB to mitigate the amount of damage your party takes (alliance members will still get hit 100% but you resuce the amount of losses)

- use WHM imp on an incoming DRG before they can go into Sky High which will delay their LB long enough for everyone in the DRK trap to get out

- press guard immediately when pulled by a DRK

- Press SCH/AST AoE movement ability to swiftly guide your party out of the DRK set up before they can plunge in/ force the DRK to plunge into a terrible position and get himself killed

There are many more ways you can be creative and although there are less buttons to press, one could argue that the new PvP revamp has made PvP even more of a critical thinking exercise. It certainly could be considered more complex than the previous iteration of PvP in this game.

Please understand my comment isn't to undermine your frustrations but to help you become a bettee player. Because when everyone improves, the quality of the matches also improves and become a lot more fun for everyone. If we complain about changes instead of adapting, then the meta never changes, the developers won't be making sweeping changes any time soon, and people remain frustrated and end up quitting, thus lowering the quality of matches for everyone.

I agree with a lot of what Sinstrel is saying - sadly a number of those actions rely on a certain amount of cooperation, knowledge and awareness and some people aren't making the effort. Not much you can do if your teammate scatter or aren't synchronizing their skills- but if they do even the killer DRK/DRG meta can be overcome.

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Originally Posted by TofuDofu

Ever since SE made huge changes with the PvP and essentially overhauled the whole thing every job has gotten their own new hotbars and the flow of frontlines matches has changed. Sprint is no longer on cooldown which means that using it is no longer a tactical decision, univesal actions like health potions and a shield change the rotation from combat to recovery, and all these things I think are nice but I think there's some issues with the PvP especially in the context of frontlines.

Namely, the DRK/DRG meta plaguing the game, now that every job has their own way of playing (with the PvP LBs not even the same as the ones from PvE as well) these two jobs have become the single most overpowered jobs because of their actions and it's at the point where the team with more of these wins the match, especially if they are premades.

I miss when the LB of the jobs was similar to the PvE (tanks gave everyone nearby a damage reduction buff, ranged physical DPS shot large lasers, melee DPS dealt a lot of damage to single targets) because now we are stuck with something that just doesn't work. The game used to be balanced, maybe it was not as interesting and dated but still it was 100% balanced. I hate that I like how varied and exciting a lot of the changes made because I wish we could change it back to when the variation between the jobs was very minimal and playing any job in frontlines was still viable, I used to be addicted to playing frontlines all day for years and hate to have to log off and play other games just because of how broken it is.

Is it possible to see some huge changes made to the PvP in the near future? I want to keep queuing for frontlines without the fear that a dozen DRK/DRGs on a team will dominate a match purely based on exploits the devs overlooked.

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personally id prefer if they made 2 sets of HB/toolkit 1 for small scale and one for large scale, i dont think itd be that difficult considering they were able to seperate PVE and PVP HB so why is it not viable for PVP to have 2 types, Like keep the SHB HB for FL and have EW for CC

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Originally Posted by Sinstrel

It seems a lot of players have very similar frustrations. And first ask for sweeping changes to the game to be made before exploring all the available counterplay.

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Most of what you've suggested either no longer works due to nerfs/buffs, or is unreliable due to requiring ridiculously good timing, anticipation, and/or an unaware attacker.

SGE limit break is not a guarantee to prevent damage. If the attackers move into the AOE and wait just long enough to get a tick of the DOT they will still deal full damage.

SAM Chiten+LB will no longer one shot a DRG landing just after skyshatter due to a change in the damage shield the DRG LB provides with the latest patch. Any competent DRK will have used TBN beforehand as well, if they're not already popping their own LB which makes them incapable of being killed. This will fail as an effective counter most of the time now, but it can at least take a big chunk out of their health.

Imping a dragoon before skyshatter is extremely difficult if impossible now after they nerfed the range of imp down to 10y some time ago. Any mediocre dragoon will begin their LB while still out of range of this. You're far better off imping the DRK immediately after they plunge and before they get salted earth off, but even this is very difficult due to lag and server tick delays.

What is pretty much the only proper and reliable counterplay is to use guard immediately when you're hit by the DRK draw in of salted earth and waiting it out a few seconds to check for any skyshatters. But even this has consequences as it effectively gives the rest of the attacking team the opportunity to prepare to obliterate them once guard is over. Either that or just having your team spread out as much as feasibly possible, but this isn't always an option due to choke points in the map.

There's other ways to delay or disrupt the combo, but I'd still argue that it's fundamentally imbalanced per how potent it is compared to the lack of risk and complexity to pull it off successfully. Balance wise, at the very least the recent changes to Skyshatter should be reverted, it really makes little sense that it got the buff it did.

FL is garbage. Play CC where you actually pvp.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

FL is garbage. Play CC where you actually pvp.

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I strongly disagree with you.
Each individual has their own cup of tea, you are out of bound with this comment.
Some likes Rival Wing as MOBA style, some likes Frontline as best illustrate of Romance of Three Kingdom, and some like closed environment such as CC.
I will respect but it really doesn't mean you are correct.

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Originally Posted by Sinstrel

Please understand my comment isn't to undermine your frustrations but to help you become a bettee player. Because when everyone improves, the quality of the matches also improves and become a lot more fun for everyone. If we complain about changes instead of adapting, then the meta never changes, the developers won't be making sweeping changes any time soon, and people remain frustrated and end up quitting, thus lowering the quality of matches for everyone.

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Just some feedback:

SGE LB is not reliable because majority of SGE players are not reliable.
SAM Guard/Chiten window is too short against incoming AOE burst; wont work without PLD Guardian and good luck with a good PLD
AST LB won't stand against AOE burst in 72 men mode.
WHM IMG, again, not reliable because majority of WHM is trigger happy on the spot instead of using it as control skill

The problem with these DRK/DRG counters is that it heavily rely on Range jobs to support but fact is most of go to job for new players are Ranges
They are clueless on how to use their counter abilities.
WHM can't even Nature these DRKs
BRD waste Silence on the spot.
ETC ETC

When Range jobs are not doing what they are supposed to do, Meeles and Tanks wont be able to function either.
This is why you are seeing other tread where Range player is making fun out of Meele/Tank but don't realize they are the source of problem to begin with

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

I strongly disagree with you.
Each individual has their own cup of tea, you are out of bound with this comment.
Some likes Rival Wing as MOBA style, some likes Frontline as best illustrate of Romance of Three Kingdom, and some like closed environment such as CC.
I will respect but it really doesn't mean you are correct.

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FL only has a queue because its in the roulette and gives EXP. No one who actually wants to pvp likes that zerg fest where you don't pvp most of the match.

I only mentioned the plays I have personally done myself and can attest that work.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

FL only has a queue because its in the roulette and gives EXP. No one who actually wants to pvp likes that zerg fest where you don't pvp most of the match.

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I think this is why a lot of your responses are triggering people's negative side.
No, Frontline was available every 15 mins during NA prime time from 8 PM EST to 2:00 EST without roulette and offering no EXP
The games are decent because you are playing against players that literally there to PvP.
Claiming Frontline will be dead without Roulette is 100% false, unfortunately.

Just because NA/EU current meta is zerg feast, it doesn't mean you have to play that way.
There are many ways to play Frontline, it is only NA/EU put a limit on themselves.
This is especially true when it comes to Secure and Shattered.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

I think this is why a lot of your responses are triggering people's negative side.
No, Frontline was available every 15 mins during NA prime time from 8 PM EST to 2:00 EST without roulette and offering no EXP
The games are decent because you are playing against players that literally there to PvP.
Claiming Frontline will be dead without Roulette is 100% false, unfortunately.

Just because NA/EU current meta is zerg feast, it doesn't mean you have to play that way.
There are many ways to play Frontline, it is only NA/EU put a limit on themselves.
This is especially true when it comes to Secure and Shattered.

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Prior to adding exp to frontlines the mode was a ghost town. They had to have an 8v8v8 mode to get any matches going, then they removed the faction restrictions which helped the queue times, but it was realistically only "active" due to event rewards. Outside of that, queue times for frontlines back then were 60 minutes plus even during prime time. This whole frontlines being fast pops all the time is ONLY because of the roulette and the exp rewards. Without the roulette, frontlines would be just as dead as rival wings.

You can call it false all you want, but I was around back when frontlines was new and for most of the changes/events it went through. It was effectively a dead mode until exp was added. People only get "triggered" because they know the stuff I say is true.

Bring back 8v8v8 yoshi please

I'd love for 8v8v8 to come back. It was way more manageable.

SCH has been helping me to survive the iconic duo or the DRK crowd. The LB does come in handy if you're able to predict when they're coming for you while you have majority of your hp. Still, I usually have to panic to try to get away from them, because my main concern isnt the DRK-DRG combo that people be trying to pull off. It's that random BH2 MCH or a nearby NIN that has their limit breaks at the ready. Being denied the opportunity to Recuperate a second before execution because someone decided to limit break on you while you're under 50% hp sucks.

I do find it funny that SCH's overall dmg is nerfed, but folks are having trouble healing through DRK's DOTs....at least that is what it seems like to me.

Frontlines would be easier if it was 24 man in my opinion. I do miss the late night grinds where I could play as late as I want, not a crowd 3 times the size telling me when it's time to go to bed.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

Just because NA/EU current meta is zerg feast, it doesn't mean you have to play that way.
There are many ways to play Frontline, it is only NA/EU put a limit on themselves.
This is especially true when it comes to Secure and Shattered.

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We're not going to speak about Shatter....lol
As for secure...eh, I don't know. It was a mistake for me to stop playing frontlines for over a year. I went to grind purely cc just to hear that secure will be getting locked come 6.4...based off of your comment i wouldn't be surprised if that is the real reason given the many complaints about secure always going to time and people being sick of being used as a golf ball. I do have another complaint about this, but I'll stop here to avoid sounding like a broken record on repeat.