Salutations
I've just made the terrible mistake of trying to get into PvP after 7 years of playing. I've had a loose interest in PvP but it changes every expansion so I haven't really tried to dedicate a lot of time to it.
I'm a White Mage main generally but I wanted to try something new so I've been playing a Monk purely for PvP since it feels fun to press the buttons that do the damage.
I know that dueling isn't really a major focus for many people.. but I figure if I can learn individual match ups the better I can be in team play as a monk instead of barreling into danger.
I've been dueling with a good friend of mine who is a PvPer but he mains Dragoon.
I have been improving as a Monk since I started playing iunno maybe a week ago?
But in terms of success say I fight my friend 10 times he'll win 7 and I'll win 3 maybe.
My wins never feel solid though. Or rather I got to put so much more planning into when to use my stun in conjunction with my combo or try and pop off my Enlightenment + LB just to beat him.
And dueling him it's like he does so much more damage than me, that if I don't like pop Riddle of Earth/Earth's reply early or spam recuperate I'm gonna die... but if I do that then I run out of MP and I die anyways.
I try using a guard at the right times but his LB also kills me instantly.
I try "Closing the gap" as he says but it always feels like I'm walking into a spear blender. I know my attack speed and stuff go up if I charge into him but like we're normally right next to each other and if I give him room to breathe the meager damage I do to him just evaporates.
So in short it's like my Dragoon buddy has my number and I'm not playing or defending in a consistent way to beat him. I'd like to learn how to play better and I'd also like to learn other matchups besides Dragoon. (Also if there are any dueling clubs for Chaos Data center I'd love to join and learn :) )
Dueling Advice (Monk v Dragoon/other jobs... mostly Dragoon)
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03-16-2023, 05:44 AMNaddaDueling Advice (Monk v Dragoon/other jobs... mostly Dragoon)
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03-16-2023, 06:05 AMKansene
The game isn't balanced for 1v1 at all, so your best bet would be to simply switch to a job that is a better duelist. Dunno what else there is to be said as 1v1 is pretty much a niche within a niche.
It's good to learn what other jobs can do, and what your own is capable of, but dueling won't show you the true strength of many jobs, which is how they can aid, support, and help set up kills for others.
Both dragoon and monk have their own strengths and weaknesses that simply don't show in duels.
Monks are amazing at chasing and sticking to targets, and their lb can break guard and set up devastating kill windows, but you won't be seeing that in a duel, where the dragoon's pure damage is all that matters. -
03-16-2023, 06:17 AMNadda
That's true. Never thought of it that way.
Though I still think it be useful to learn what jobs can do one on one - at least in my case since I am very good at chasing and sticking to targets as you said. Which means I need to know who to isolate and when to pounce on them. If they can survive my volley of attacks - if they are within my range (can I kill them if I land this) Or can they cause me issues.
Anyways thank you for your honest words and feedback :) -
03-16-2023, 08:52 AMbrancinaed
I have some winning tips for you!
One of Monk's great strengths is that 1.8second gcd with Wind Resonance. By dancing around line of sight at the structures you can peek out then hide before the opponent can strike back. This is really hard, but just one extra strike can eek out a win in duels. It's also vital to keep this buff up so it should be a high priority.
Second, practice inputs for perfect combo on the dummy and only ever use Rising Phoenix on Phantom Rush and Enlightenment! They are +5000potency and +4000potency while every other weapon skill is 3000 or less, so not using R.P. on them is like losing half a gcd.
Rising Phoenix - Phantom Rush - Six-sided Star - Rising Phoenix - Enlightenment - Meteodrive+Pressure Point is 61000 potency thus can quickly surprise kill someone.
It helps me a lot to think of the inputs in rhythm but my inputs would simply be "Q - 1 - 2 - Q - 3 - R"
You don't always need to be executing this combo, but it's worth knowing how to do the most burst damage possible.
Oh, and the opening should be thunderclap -> Bootshine -> six sided star -> rising Phoenix -> enlightenment because you want to get those cds rolling. -
03-16-2023, 11:51 AMNadda
That's good to know my friend taught me to combo my enlightenment with six-sided star....
As I said in fights it feels like I'm trying to set myself up to have my moves align at the right moment to strike. -
03-16-2023, 01:40 PMDivinemights
Dueling in FF14 post 6.1 only works when it is same job against same job
It is a test of the CD management. -
03-16-2023, 03:32 PMNadda
to be fair to Square... in the most unfair way possible.
There hasn't really ever been a consistent pvp skill set.
That said even in its current state - - I don't want to attribute my loses to just throwing my hands up and saying I as a Monk stand no chance against a Dragoon.
Even if our toolset and what we are supposed to do with those tools are completely different.
Call it a gut feeling but I know if I play smart I can make it even. As I said before out of 10 matches I'll win maybe 3 of them.
I won't feel satisfied until I can at least make a good effort in making it 5/5 or at least 4 out of 5.
I find that even if the deck is stacked against me being able to come out on top by a margin just a tiny margin, makes me feel good about myself. That way when I'm in a frontline or cc I can single out a guy who isn't as prepared and go Bang! BOP! Zing! Zoom! KABOOM! yakno? -
03-16-2023, 04:49 PMKathleen_
I don't duel at all but it sounds like you lack a fundamental understanding of both jobs. For DRG specifically you have 4 mechanics to worry about: his increased defense, his decreased defense, his backflip, and if somehow a DRG is still alive against a MNK until he gets his LB, then the LB.
Geirskogul increases the DRG's damage but also increases his damage taken. Realistically in a 1v1 scenario he'll probably always pair this window with Horrid Roar, which increases his defense by 50%. Just keep hitting him to keep the GCD rolling because MNK is very dependable on it. Use recuperate the very single moment you lose 15k health of more, any less is a waste, and any later is a waste of server ticks regenerating MP. Ideally your strongest burst combo outside of LB is RP>Enlightenment>SSS>RP>PR>ER. Phantom Rush proccing PP is an immediate 27k burst, adding in everything else it amounts to a 49k burst in 2GCDs plus whatever you have stored in Riddle of Earth. Try hitting this when he doesn't have his defense buff up. You also should be guarding the moment you see the backflips, because that is what enables his big burst. It's as telegraphed as your big combo, which speaking of is generally RP>PR>RP>Enlightenment>SSS>LB. This should pretty much kill most jobs in the game with few exceptions, DRG not being one of them. RP is very telegraphed so make sure you don't waste all of your burst on guard. Also the placement of SSS is very important: if you stun before the knockback, there's a small window before LB where you can get a purify/recuperate off if you smash the buttons hard enough, letting even squishy ranged jobs survive. If you stun AFTER Enlightenment however, that window is gone and it goes straight into the LB's animation lock. If he somehow survives all of this (aka you fucked up something, let's be honest) and gets his LB, you will have to keep guard for LB and tank WWT with RoE.
Again I don't duel at all but realistically MNK has an incredibly minor chance of losing to DRG so keep up at it and remember to keep the GCD rolling like if it were PvE.
Edit: I just thought about it but can't you just run away from DRG LB in a duel? lol Where are the duelers when you need them. -
03-17-2023, 05:27 AMNadda
None of this was particularly helpful. Outside of Guarding when they use backflip. It's true I don't know what the Dragoon is capable of and I'm still learning Monk... but even I know that not everything is going to go as smoothly as doing something in the correct sequence = ez win. That type of logic isn't very helpful. Obviously, if you do everything right and your opponent does everything wrong you'll win. There wasn't much insight to glean from this.
Also, you can't just run away from the DRG LB all that happens is you go from being either dead to only having a sliver of health left.
I should know since one of the first things I tried was running away from the very obvious blue circle thing following me. You're only chance to survive is with Guard. My friend who is the Dragoon I'm dueling taught me that much.
I'm new I'm not stupid and would appreciate not being treated as such. I came here to learn, after all, I know my experience and knowledge is lacking. -
03-17-2023, 05:46 AMKathleen_
Buddy MNK is one of the best 1v1 jobs and DRG realistically has no way to beat it if played properly, not perfectly. It's literally do the correct sequence = ez win job. You are 100% doing something wrong. lol
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03-17-2023, 06:44 PMNaddaQuote:
Originally Posted by Kathleen_
Well Buddy
An odd thing to say considering this is a thread about asking for ADVICE!
i.e. Opinion about what could or should be done about a situation or problem; counsel.
i.e. recommendation regarding a decision or course of conduct: COUNSEL
i.e. seriously what in the seven hells are you playing at!?
The context of this is to give advice and in your opening declarative statement you "offered" advice you opened with how you don't duel AT ALL!
Your words. So how would you then return with a "Monk is one of the best 1v1 jobs and DRG realistically has no way to beat it if played properly" AS if you were at all an authority on the matter when you clearly are NOT!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathleen_
Are you trying to one-up me in the field of ignorance or something? I already know I don't know exactly what I'm doing that's why I'm asking for help! DUH!
I appreciate and am receptive to the advice and feedback from people who were actually kind enough to deliver it. I've taken into a stock that I'm doing something wrong and would like to know how to improve so why you choose to approach the conversation as a means to lord over me baffles me.
At any rate, I don't require or desire your help. I'll gladly accept it from anybody else, anybody would be an improvement from you. So take satisfaction in whatever knowledge you may lord over me for now. I could care less if you're a thousand thousand times better than me - no matter your superiority in the topic may or may not be you have failed at being a good teacher. -
03-17-2023, 09:52 PMLlynethil
Save cc and burst for when dragoon buffs himself, forgor the name of it but it's what they get when using geirskogel, but it buffs dragoon damage BUT it also increases their damage taken, so that's when you want to prevent him from using abilities and hit him hard, if it doesn't kill him it'll at least force him to recup spam.
Also if you have LB up, monk LB removes guard if he tries to use guard to buy time. -
03-17-2023, 11:28 PMKathleen_I really don't understand what your issue with me is considering that I've told you all the instant MNK kill combos (that don't change between duels, CC, FL, RWs, you name it), told you how to execute a proper MNK LB, told you how to guard against DRG burst. And you get all pissy with me despite giving you very solid advice not a lot of people know of (SSS's positioning in the combo)? Lmao get real.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadda
Here's another unwarranted piece of advice I am 100% sure you're doing wrong: proccing PP from Enlightenment is essential, but due to the game's netcode you have to try and time your gapclose so instead of pressing it immediately, react to the knockback and gapclose when the animation finishes.
But what do I know, I don't duel so I clearly don't know how the jobs work. lol -
03-17-2023, 11:36 PMDivinemightsIf you are really here to seek help, post the video of your dueling so we can see what is going on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadda
You also need to stop showing like you are triggered when you are looking for advise.
The people that can advise you on MNK vs DRG are the people can dominate DRG in 1v1, and of course they find it strange you are thinking DRG > MNK.
Right now there is Geforce Expereince or Xbox game bar so it is not difficult to make a video of your game play -
03-18-2023, 03:27 AMElfidan
It really just comes down to player skill. DRG basically ride from burst phase to burst phase doing poke damage(no pun intended). MNK on the other hand has a ramping burst design where you are trying to build to your final combo to pull off an enlightened limit break followed by said combo. You should avoid using any burst if you are under horrid roar obviously, but don't forget riddle of earth is strong as hell for countering enemy burst. It pretty much will just come down to using stun riddle and gap closers to counter the range DRG can keep.
I suggest using OBS or Shadowplay to capture your gameplay and review what you did wrong. I did this a lot in season one of CC and it really helped me improve on playstyle. -
03-18-2023, 01:04 PMNaddaI didn't know it removes guard. I have beaten my friend a few times when I line things up properly. I think a better understanding of what Dragoon can do will help me in the long run. Lot of the buffs you mention I didn't even notice. So I'll keep an eye out. My friend is very skilled at PvP I'm thinking maybe I'm too much of an easy read. I also don't seem to stun nearly enough as I should.Quote:
Originally Posted by Llynethil
That sounds like a good idea. I'll try doing that at some point over the weekend :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinemights
I apologize for my outburst, If you look at my other responses you'll see that I have been very kind and receptive to others. I'd rather not go off the beaten path and distract from things.
This is something I employed in our matches was using riddle of earth and earths reply to counter the burst. I'll try setting up a recording if my friend and I can duel each other. Over the weekend, I think this will help contextualize things for everyone so I'll work on that and when I got it ready I'll post it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfidan
He has been a very good sport he is much more talented than I am but I've been loving the challenge. I've only been playing for a week pvp wise and for that matter only been playing Monk for a week lol... Each time I'm getting better but I will put your advice to work. -
03-18-2023, 09:59 PMKathleen_Maybe you should have read my original post throughout instead of reading "I don't duel at all" and dismissing it for no reason?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadda
But you do you, buddy. -
03-19-2023, 03:09 AMbrancinaed
"Don't let anything prevent you from experimenting with other ways." - Serge Lang
Duels between Monk and Dragoon specifically can get quite fun because there are a few things to be mindful of.
For the Dragoon, Geirskogul's Life of the Dragon Effect: Increases damage dealt and damage suffered by 25% and Horrid Roar's Effect: Reduces damage target deals to you by 50%.
For the monk, Monk Earth's Reply deals physical damage to all nearby enemies and restores your HP. Damage Potency: 2,000 plus 25% of compiled damage.
Cure Potency: 4,000 plus 50% of compiled damage
want to be blocking as much damage with Riddle of Earth during burst, usually during Geirskogul then pressing Earth's Reply while the Dragoon is still under the effect 25% more damage taken. Taking advantage of all these tiny potency gains is vital for consistently winning duels
until you start playing around with line of sight -
03-19-2023, 08:42 AMNaddaWow! that's a really interesting breakdown of the dynamics between them.Quote:
Originally Posted by brancinaed
A great quote btw. There is a lot of experimenting and trial and error.
I will try doing a line of sight if it is an effective strategy.