How many spells do Summoner even have?

So, comparing all the classes, with the help of someone else. It came down to this?

FFXIV, all abilities, excluding role actions:

blm 25 (excluding sleep, f2, b2, scathe)
smn 27 (excluding physic)
rdm 25
chad (blue) mage 24

bard 23
mch 21
dnc 22

mnk 25
drg 23 (excl spear throw)
nin 25
sam 27 (24 excluding enpi, yaten, merciful eyes)
reaper 24

whm 23
sch 26
ast 27

pld 25 (excl shield bash)
war 21
drk 23
gnb 25

With role actions:

blm 25 (excluding sleep, f2, b2, scathe) + 4
smn 27 (excluding physic) + 4
rdm 25 + 4
chad (blue) mage 24 + 4

bard 23 + 6
mch 21 + 6
dnc 22 + 6

mnk 25 + 6
drg 23 (excl spear throw) + 6
nin 25 + 6
sam 27 (24 excluding enpi, yaten, merciful eyes) + 6
reaper 24 + 6

whm 23 + 6
sch 26 + 6
ast 27 + 6

pld 25 (excl shield bash) + 7
war 21 + 7
drk 23 + 7
gnb 25 + 7


How does Smn have 27 if it's the easiest class? Does that 27 include pet abilities? Because when I tried counting the abilities, and removing the ones that are evolved into with level up and cant be put on hotbar, the max I counted was about 21 or less.

It's easiest cause it's is this a trash pack or not? You can only use one egi at a time same with Bahamut and Phoenix. You only get stuff like Deathflare, Enkindle Bahamut, Rekindle, and Enkindle Phoenix at 60, 70 and 80. All of those are instant and don't get used again until you can re-summon them. Garuda and Ifrit both have skills that are also use once until the next time. Only Titan has an ability you can repeat more than once and that's between their main attack charges. You only can only fester or painflare twice. After that you have to wait until energy drain or energy siphon are back up. Ruin IV only is available after the use of Energy Drain or Energy Siphon.

because the rotation is just linear
it's long but it's a long corridor

compare with black mage whose rotation is very simple: fire 4 three times, then paradox then fire 4 three times, then despair, then blizzard 3 blizzard 4 paradox, refresh thunder whenever it's about to drop
however in practice black mage has a ton of decisions and paths to take when optimizing dps, to the point that there's 2 entirely different playstyles.

SMN is easy due to how it's rotations work, as you have your Bahamut/Phoenix stage, and between them 3 largely interchangeable blocks with the different summons, which don't necessarily need to be used in a specific order. The biggest challenge generally is finding the safest moment to use Ifrit, which involves being able to stand still for about 5 seconds to cast Ruby Rite twice, and going to melee range for a short moment.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

The biggest challenge generally is finding the safest moment to use Ifrit, which involves being able to stand still for about 5 seconds to cast Ruby Rite twice, and going to melee range for a short moment.

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Don't even have to do that twice if you loop swiftcast into your rotation during Ifrit. No point sitting there with it off cooldown.


For the OP, SMN may have a lot of actions but you're locked in based on whatever stance you're in and the only time you get to choose your stance is when Bahamut/Phoenix is on cooldown and you can choose one of the 3. All stances only give you about 3 buttons to press. Ignore Physick.

Meanwhile classes like BRD and MCH are constantly weaving things. Most classes also need to worry about DoT and/or self-buff timers.

At this point, SMN is an instant gratification class that does big explosions but without having to worry about timers at all and barely think about casting time, movement, or setting up the rotation. Its rotation isn't as punishing either and is fairly free to allow you to interchange between 3 of the stances on a whim.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Don't even have to do that twice if you loop swiftcast into your rotation during Ifrit. No point sitting there with it off cooldown.


For the OP, SMN may have a lot of actions but you're locked in based on whatever stance you're in and the only time you get to choose your stance is when Bahamut/Phoenix is on cooldown and you can choose one of the 3. All stances only give you about 3 buttons to press. Ignore Physick.

Meanwhile classes like BRD and MCH are constantly weaving things. Most classes also need to worry about DoT and/or self-buff timers.

At this point, SMN is an instant gratification class that does big explosions but without having to worry about timers at all and barely think about casting time, movement, or setting up the rotation. Its rotation isn't as punishing either and is fairly free to allow you to interchange between 3 of the stances on a whim.

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I use swiftcast on garuda slipstream.

Doing it wrong?

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Originally Posted by MahthildisMMORPG

[...]How does Smn have 27 if it's the easiest class? Does that 27 include pet abilities? Because when I tried counting the abilities, and removing the ones that are evolved into with level up and cant be put on hotbar, the max I counted was about 21 or less.

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To put it simply, its because their 'peak rotation' is linear & very foolproof.

Can't Aethercharge/Summon Bahamut? "Oh, I need to have carby out... "
Can't use Legos? "Oh, I need to finish Aethercharge/Summon Bahamut phase first..."
Can't use Gemshine/Precious Brilliance & Astral Flow? "Oh I need to use Bahamut/Phoenix/Legos..."
Can't use Ruin IV & Festers? "Oh I need to use Energy Drain/Siphon..."
Ruin IV is timed exactly the same as its catalyst? "Oh so I need to expend it before using another..."
Then you realize there's an insane amount of potency shoehorned into Bahamut's phase? "Oh hmm Bahamy is yum yum op! Let's buff it with Searing Light!"

What else? Maybe super dumping 4 Festers into raidbuff window? Maybe learning where in the fight it's safe to standstill to cast during Ifrit phase (something that all spellcasters will naturally learn)? Maybe learning where in the fight it's safe enough to not murder yourself or your partymate with Crimson Cyclone? Maybe learning whether it's worthy to Swift a Slipstream cast to catch raidbuff window in a raidbuff heavy compo groups? Maybe saving it for Ruby Rites casts or combat raise? Not that SMN is lacking in instants at this point. They're memed for being a phys ranged dps in caster coat not without a reason.

It's hard to fail playing a SMN because the restriction it implore to player restrict player from failing for the most part.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Don't even have to do that twice if you loop swiftcast into your rotation during Ifrit. No point sitting there with it off cooldown.

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That would work, but personally my Ifrit's always generally been Ruby Rite -> Ruin IV -> Ruby Rite ->Crimson Cyclone -> Fester -> Crimson Strike -> Fester

I find it to be the best summon to mix the Energy Drain bits in.

You are counting 27 because you are counting actions that are all overlapping on certain actions.

Without role actions (Addle, Swiftcast, Sleep, Lucid Dreaming, Surecast) and Physick:

1.) Ruin III -> [Astral Impulse / Fountain of Fire]
2.) Tri-Disaster -> [Astral Flare / Brand of Purgatory]
3.) Gemshine -> [Ruby Rite / Topaz Rite / Emerald Rite]
4.) Precious Brilliance -> [Ruby Catastrophe / Topaz Catastrophe / Emerald Catastrophe]
5 + 6.) Energy Drain, Energy Siphon
7 + 8.) Fester, Painflare
9, 10, 11.) Summon Ifrit / Titan / Garuda II
12.) Astral Flow -> [Crimson Cyclone + Crimson Strike / Mountain Buster / Slipstream / Deathflare / Rekindle]
13.) [Summon Bahamut / Summon Phoenix]
14.) [Enkindle Bahamut: Akh Morn / Enkindle Phoenix: Revelation]
15.) Radiant Aegis
16.) Resurrection
17.) Searing Light
18.) Ruin IV

Summoner has 18 unique buttons to press, not accounting for single-target vs AOE scenarios.

You are not going to determine the easiest class by the amount of buttons.
The question is how frequently do you press most of those buttons.
How many of them are absolutely required.
And how complicated it is to use them or to know when to use them.

We say Summoner is about the easiest for a DPS if the other options like Machinist are too complicated.

Line up the summons on the top hotbars. Summon Carbuncle, Summon Ifrit/Ruby, Summon Titan/Topaz, Summon Garuda/Emerald, Aethercharge/Dreadwyrm Trance/Summon Bahamut.

Line up on the bottom hotbar Ruin 1/2/3, Gemshine, Astral Flow, Tri-disaster and Precious Brilliance.

Start by summoning Carbuncle. Then it does not need to be summoned for the rest of the day usually, or until job is switched.

Cycle through the summons on the top hotbar.

After each one is summoned, you can press the buttons on the bottom hotbar to do their element attacks. Ruin 1/2/3, Gemshine and Astral Flow for single target and Tri-disaster and Precious Brilliance for aoe (multiple targets).

All the other buttons are buffs or one-offs and not a big deal if someone finds a lot of buttons complicated. The other buttons are shields, heals, damage buffs, resurrection, swift casts, knockback immunity, sleeping a target, a rarely used version or Ruin, rarely used things like Fester. If all of that complicates it, it’s discardable and can be removed from the hotbar.

Learning disability or not though, if there is a way for them to learn, it should come in time, whether they have to teach it to themselves instead of being told it, or whether they can only be told it, or however their way of learning works.

Even people without disabilities take time to understand rotations like this. It’s easy to see how many new players don’t press things right even into the high levels by the videos they upload on youtube. So it’s not entirely unusual.

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Originally Posted by Imora

I use swiftcast on garuda slipstream.

Doing it wrong?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

That would work, but personally my Ifrit's always generally been Ruby Rite -> Ruin IV -> Ruby Rite ->Crimson Cyclone -> Fester -> Crimson Strike -> Fester

I find it to be the best summon to mix the Energy Drain bits in.

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I thought I read somewhere last year that using it on Ifrit was a slight DPS gain over using it on Garuda so I’ve just been doing that. Some Discord DPS calculating person probably figured it’s a 3 DPS increase or something.

I just like knowing I will never have more than 1 hard cast per summon so I feel like I have more mobility.

It's less about how easy it is, and how many abilities can i shove into my Logitech g600, also I specifically stated that my post about the girl I met had zero relation to my other posts. Max 24 + Q, E, R, F, mouse left, mouse right.

I was thinking about class changing too, so I created a similar post at the same time because I was also interested in Summoner too, due to it being top meta in content i liked. The post about the girl I met, is unrelated to my three other posts. I personally have a developmental disability, not a learning one lel.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Learning disability or not though, if there is a way for them to learn, it should come in time, whether they have to teach it to themselves instead of being told it, or whether they can only be told it, or however their way of learning works.

Even people without disabilities take time to understand rotations like this. It’s easy to see how many new players don’t press things right even into the high levels by the videos they upload on youtube. So it’s not entirely unusual.

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True, but I've been slightly annoyed with trying to help, and then her saying "it's soooo hard, please help, I don't wanna play this class, what's this, what's that". And I am personally an easily frustrated/annoyed person when it comes to trying to help, my mother knows better than anyone how irritated I can get. (moms a boomer who is bad at technology) Also, I'll feel bad if I'm like "you gotta keep trying and help yourself." But I don't work in the mental health field, so I don't exactly know how to handle it. I'm just a dude. It's either, she continues trying at Paladin, and complains to me, or try finding her an easy class so I won't hear the complaining.

oooh, thanks bro!

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

To put it simply, its because their 'peak rotation' is linear & very foolproof.

Can't Aethercharge/Summon Bahamut? "Oh, I need to have carby out... "
Can't use Legos? "Oh, I need to finish Aethercharge/Summon Bahamut phase first..."
Can't use Gemshine/Precious Brilliance & Astral Flow? "Oh I need to use Bahamut/Phoenix/Legos..."
Can't use Ruin IV & Festers? "Oh I need to use Energy Drain/Siphon..."
Ruin IV is timed exactly the same as its catalyst? "Oh so I need to expend it before using another..."
Then you realize there's an insane amount of potency shoehorned into Bahamut's phase? "Oh hmm Bahamy is yum yum op! Let's buff it with Searing Light!"

What else? Maybe super dumping 4 Festers into raidbuff window? Maybe learning where in the fight it's safe to standstill to cast during Ifrit phase (something that all spellcasters will naturally learn)? Maybe learning where in the fight it's safe enough to not murder yourself or your partymate with Crimson Cyclone? Maybe learning whether it's worthy to Swift a Slipstream cast to catch raidbuff window in a raidbuff heavy compo groups? Maybe saving it for Ruby Rites casts or combat raise? Not that SMN is lacking in instants at this point. They're memed for being a phys ranged dps in caster coat not without a reason.

It's hard to fail playing a SMN because the restriction it implore to player restrict player from failing for the most part.

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The best part is when you see two or more SMNs and they nonchalantly use Searing Light at the same time. Can't really blame them for not caring.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I thought I read somewhere last year that using it on Ifrit was a slight DPS gain over using it on Garuda so I’ve just been doing that. Some Discord DPS calculating person probably figured it’s a 3 DPS increase or something.

I just like knowing I will never have more than 1 hard cast per summon so I feel like I have more mobility.

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That was probably before they changed the Ruby recast time from 2.5s to 3s (cast time is 2.8s). Now it's either for movement, getting the Garuda DoT out quicker, getting one last hit in, or maybe a Raise in a tense situation.

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Originally Posted by MahthildisMMORPG

So, comparing all the classes, with the help of someone else. It came down to this?

FFXIV, all abilities, excluding role actions:

blm 25 (excluding sleep, f2, b2, scathe)
smn 27 (excluding physic)
rdm 25
chad (blue) mage 24

bard 23
mch 21
dnc 22

mnk 25
drg 23 (excl spear throw)
nin 25
sam 27 (24 excluding enpi, yaten, merciful eyes)
reaper 24

whm 23
sch 26
ast 27

pld 25 (excl shield bash)
war 21
drk 23
gnb 25

With role actions:

blm 25 (excluding sleep, f2, b2, scathe) + 4
smn 27 (excluding physic) + 4
rdm 25 + 4
chad (blue) mage 24 + 4

bard 23 + 6
mch 21 + 6
dnc 22 + 6

mnk 25 + 6
drg 23 (excl spear throw) + 6
nin 25 + 6
sam 27 (24 excluding enpi, yaten, merciful eyes) + 6
reaper 24 + 6

whm 23 + 6
sch 26 + 6
ast 27 + 6

pld 25 (excl shield bash) + 7
war 21 + 7
drk 23 + 7
gnb 25 + 7


How does Smn have 27 if it's the easiest class? Does that 27 include pet abilities? Because when I tried counting the abilities, and removing the ones that are evolved into with level up and cant be put on hotbar, the max I counted was about 21 or less.

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Simple.

Summoner actually only has around 10 spells.
The rest are Abilities, also commonly known as OGCD abilities.

There is a difference.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I thought I read somewhere last year that using it on Ifrit was a slight DPS gain over using it on Garuda so I’ve just been doing that. Some Discord DPS calculating person probably figured it’s a 3 DPS increase or something.

I just like knowing I will never have more than 1 hard cast per summon so I feel like I have more mobility.

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Swiftcast slipstream was worked out to be ~10 potency increase in the rotation, completely negligable when you can just save it for a swiftcast raise.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MahthildisMMORPG

True, but I've been slightly annoyed with trying to help, and then her saying "it's soooo hard, please help, I don't wanna play this class, what's this, what's that".

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Have you tried suggesting she read the tooltips that appear when hovering over the actions? They can press P to open Actions and Traits and hover over all the actions to see what they do.

I’m not saying it will necessarily be as easy to learn as for someone else but if they keep reading through them each day that it confuses them, then maybe with time that reading will start to sink in.

ogcd, gcd = spells, passive and abilities =/= spell, in my book. Usually when I refer to abilities, it may include passives, which leads to confusion

Anything that isn't a passive (actions that cannot be pressed or that shares a button, such as attacks or abilities that change from another) is a spell to me, so.

As long as we knew what each other meant, the technicalities really don't matter. (also rather not get into a debate about it when it isn't important)

I used to play Magic the Gathering competitively and WoW, so it's a force of habit. (if you know you know) Being WoW has schools of magic that can be silenced, purged, interrupted, and pacified from using such school of magic. Implying everything that isn't a direct physical non-magical attack is a spell.