Guardian

Hi,

Now I'm far from expert so firstly, is it just me or is it not entirely right for a pld guardian to cover people while they are taking elixir?

I couldn't somehow believe it when it was happening in front of me because it occurs that this is a huge amount of healing, too huge and too easily arranged at just the right time by the players who are able to communicate...

Is there any other ability with this potential? Does it seem fair?

Thank you,

They should have made cover be 99.9% reduction so the target always takes at least 1 damage from the start, that way both the onsai exploit and things like this would never have happened.

I actually like this about paladin. It's a cool niche thing that only they can do, and it's on flavor for the job to boot. As far as I know there's nothing else that lets you do this though.

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Originally Posted by Bluish

Hi,

Now I'm far from expert so firstly, is it just me or is it not entirely right for a pld guardian to cover people while they are taking elixir?

I couldn't somehow believe it when it was happening in front of me because it occurs that this is a huge amount of healing, too huge and too easily arranged at just the right time by the players who are able to communicate...

Is there any other ability with this potential? Does it seem fair?

Thank you,

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i would say its more than fair in fact its unfair for PLD when you think of the drawbacks of guardian

1) its a damage multiplier
2) depending on the situation it forces PLD to use its resources more quickly if it doesnt have guard
3) it forces the player keep guard on reserve
4) it doesnt stop DOTs
5)in the event the player uses guard + cover for an ally to heal it then creates a 3v5 or however of the enemy is left
6) animation lock

assuming who you covered didnt run away
all of these give guardian the nickname "suicide button" so when you factor these in for the 1 gain of an ally getting to use an elixir then id say its more than fair,
if youre in this scenario you best move is to hammer both with aoe's

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Originally Posted by Llynethil

They should have made cover be 99.9% reduction so the target always takes at least 1 damage from the start, that way both the onsai exploit and things like this would never have happened.

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it doesnt stop DOTs and is a damage gain for the enemy so if its 99.9% effective then youve added more of an unfair advantage to the opponent

Thanks for this info,

I don't have any dots on my preferred job...but it does seem at least that there can be a way to deal with that pesky skill.

You have to understand that the way I've seen it used in cc convinced me that there is no way to win against that. It seemed that people were getting the buff just when they were out of stcks and dropping hp. Even with disadvantages that you mentioned this seemed to happen a good few times per match. Full stack of heals is worth some 60k healing, plus whatever is missing from hp bar... If you picture being in a team dealing with that kind of healing potential, wasting over 60k worth of damage just to see the person restoring it while invincible and facing that almost every time when trying to get someone to pop is demoralising. My team members were clearly not dealing with this just as much as me, every time...It was a very effective strategy, and I mean scary effective. I'm not easily put off, I like odds being against me because it makes it more fun, but this, along with other issues of ranked cc such as win trading and voice chatting among the top players makes it incredibly off putting.

It all makes me think that this skill ought to be adjusted. How many genuigne pvp enthusiasts would you be willng to loose by retaining skills this easy to exploit? Most of what I see when pvp is mentioned is people putting each other off, saying how they hate it, don't go there kinda thing and it's because of the issues like this^^

If this skill seems unfair to everyone including people who play this job then how do we get it changed?

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Originally Posted by Bluish

Thanks for this info,

I don't have any dots on my preferred job...but it does seem at least that there can be a way to deal with that pesky skill.

You have to understand that the way I've seen it used in cc convinced me that there is no way to win against that. It seemed that people were getting the buff just when they were out of stcks and dropping hp. Even with disadvantages that you mentioned this seemed to happen a good few times per match. Full stack of heals is worth some 60k healing, plus whatever is missing from hp bar... If you picture being in a team dealing with that kind of healing potential, wasting over 60k worth of damage just to see the person restoring it while invincible and facing that almost every time when trying to get someone to pop is demoralising. My team members were clearly not dealing with this just as much as me, every time...It was a very effective strategy, and I mean scary effective. I'm not easily put off, I like odds being against me because it makes it more fun, but this, along with other issues of ranked cc such as win trading and voice chatting among the top players makes it incredibly off putting.

It all makes me think that this skill ought to be adjusted. How many genuigne pvp enthusiasts would you be willng to loose by retaining skills this easy to exploit? Most of what I see when pvp is mentioned is people putting each other off, saying how they hate it, don't go there kinda thing and it's because of the issues like this^^

If this skill seems unfair to everyone including people who play this job then how do we get it changed?

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The way to deal with a PLD Guardian is to hit the PLD and whoever is under the effect of guardian because of the damage multiplier will drop the PLD relatively easily because the damage you inflict is transferred to the PLD and if the PLD is using guard shift your focus on 1 of the other opponents because by using guard and cover this disengages 2 out of 5 opponents by doing this you've more than leveled the field, if you don't have DOTs then keep up the aoes however if you're trying to face a PLD and whoever is under the effect of Guardian by yourself, well that isn't a good tactic but if you have any knockback abilities you can use that to disrupt Guardian

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Originally Posted by Bluish

Thanks for this info,

I don't have any dots on my preferred job...but it does seem at least that there can be a way to deal with that pesky skill.

You have to understand that the way I've seen it used in cc convinced me that there is no way to win against that. It seemed that people were getting the buff just when they were out of stcks and dropping hp. Even with disadvantages that you mentioned this seemed to happen a good few times per match. Full stack of heals is worth some 60k healing, plus whatever is missing from hp bar... If you picture being in a team dealing with that kind of healing potential, wasting over 60k worth of damage just to see the person restoring it while invincible and facing that almost every time when trying to get someone to pop is demoralising. My team members were clearly not dealing with this just as much as me, every time...It was a very effective strategy, and I mean scary effective. I'm not easily put off, I like odds being against me because it makes it more fun, but this, along with other issues of ranked cc such as win trading and voice chatting among the top players makes it incredibly off putting.

It all makes me think that this skill ought to be adjusted. How many genuigne pvp enthusiasts would you be willng to loose by retaining skills this easy to exploit? Most of what I see when pvp is mentioned is people putting each other off, saying how they hate it, don't go there kinda thing and it's because of the issues like this^^

If this skill seems unfair to everyone including people who play this job then how do we get it changed?

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The reason I think its unfair for anyone who mains PLD is because most don't understand (even some crystal players)or even see the effect so when they run away I just ended up wasting a skill that could've went to someone else, as well as the requirements of Guard being the only effective DR to keep both participants alive, my preference would be if the tether is broken within the 1st 5 seconds then the ally should get a residual effect of 10-20% DR

Thank you for explaining so well,

Eh I'm one of those who like to learn as they go and even though I tried most of the jobs on dummies, the implications of this skill went complately over my head and I'm also reconsidering my ability to figure out wth is going on altogether. On the bright side my somewhat traumatic experience with learning about this payed off, else I would continue being one of those blissfully oblivious people XD Not that I expect a pld dropping guard on me anytime soon since I'm playing bard...and I don't have a knock back for them either...hmm

Also I'm not sure that even being strategic as a whole team and bringing pld down or alternatively their team members would tip the scales that much...you will take that hard won kill just to deal with it again in some 10-20 seconds when they come back at you fresh as daisies and with lb at the ready. I would like to know if people overall have much luck going against teams focused on using guardian/elixir strategy.

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

it doesnt stop DOTs and is a damage gain for the enemy so if its 99.9% effective then youve added more of an unfair advantage to the opponent

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It's not about doing damage to them, it's about being able to stop nonsense like this which you could if you did 1 direct damage to the covered perso.

Losing 0.01% damage means nothing and makes 0 difference, being able to stop a full pot is way more important then that.

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Originally Posted by Llynethil

It's not about doing damage to them, it's about being able to stop nonsense like this which you could if you did 1 direct damage to the covered perso.

Losing 0.01% damage means nothing and makes 0 difference, being able to stop a full pot is way more important then that.

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if PLD had adequate sustain,DR and dps i would agree hell id even go further to make guardian 80-90% but that it isnt the case, PLD recieves 2x the damage for someone to heal at full, so if youre doing 30k-40k damage thats transferred to a class that outside of Guard does not have the resources to survive along with the damage PLD receives thats the trade-off one life for another, and adding another flaw/drawback to guardian doesn't seem fair and would make the class nonviable, also ive seen enough times someone die with smallest of hp due to DOTs under guardian to say every DPS matters

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Originally Posted by Bluish

Thank you for explaining so well,

Eh I'm one of those who like to learn as they go and even though I tried most of the jobs on dummies, the implications of this skill went complately over my head and I'm also reconsidering my ability to figure out wth is going on altogether. On the bright side my somewhat traumatic experience with learning about this payed off, else I would continue being one of those blissfully oblivious people XD Not that I expect a pld dropping guard on me anytime soon since I'm playing bard...and I don't have a knock back for them either...hmm

Also I'm not sure that even being strategic as a whole team and bringing pld down or alternatively their team members would tip the scales that much...you will take that hard won kill just to deal with it again in some 10-20 seconds when they come back at you fresh as daisies and with lb at the ready. I would like to know if people overall have much luck going against teams focused on using guardian/elixir strategy.

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if BRD is what your playing then i dont really have any advice, if you managed to kill PLD or another team member not under guardian, how does that not tip the scales?

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Originally Posted by Bluish

you will take that hard won kill just to deal with it again in some 10-20 seconds when they come back at you fresh as daisies and with lb at the ready

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this applies to every class/player you kill

It's very situational and I'm talking about teams made out of people who win trade, cheat, communicate or all 3... I would not have an issue with seeing it occasionally but when it happens a lot, one kill would never help much, it would have to be 2-3 to tip that scale. One kill to lower their number and another to make up for one of the enemies whole hp restoration, but that still barely tips it in my view.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. The disadvantage to pld while using guardian, which is available every 25s, can be mitigated by guard which is available every 30s, allowing pld to cover half of the time they are taking damage and preventing interruptions?

Well if that doesn't sound hopeless it's enough to consider them having a healer in their group and the blessing of other members buffs and skills...

They really should remove Guardian and replace it with some version of Intervention. You still get a PLD flavor without the bitter after taste of getting double damage.

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Originally Posted by Bluish

It's very situational and I'm talking about teams made out of people who win trade, cheat, communicate or all 3... I would not have an issue with seeing it occasionally but when it happens a lot, one kill would never help much, it would have to be 2-3 to tip that scale. One kill to lower their number and another to make up for one of the enemies whole hp restoration, but that still barely tips it in my view.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. The disadvantage to pld while using guardian, which is available every 25s, can be mitigated by guard which is available every 30s, allowing pld to cover half of the time they are taking damage and preventing interruptions?

Well if that doesn't sound hopeless it's enough to consider them having a healer in their group and the blessing of other members buffs and skills...

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In terms of win trading then no amount of advice is going help aside from playing in primal DC

This disadvantages with guard + cover(guardian) for the player/PLD as well as the team are this, it disengages PLD from combat even though PLD does little to no Damage its still a reduction of overall team dps, which means with that time you and your team should easily be able to kill another then refocus on PLD since it's guard is on CD which leads to the other disadvantage of PLD rarely getting to use guard for itself

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Originally Posted by WlyemR

They really should remove Guardian and replace it with some version of Intervention. You still get a PLD flavor without the bitter after taste of getting double damage.

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Unfortunately guard and it's LB are the only reason anyone would tolerate the class in a mode that's all about dps if they get rid of guardian then they'd have to buff PLD which would lead to a slew of complaints

I think it's a solid move for PLD to have but it never bothered me a lot. Saving somebody from being obliterated is powerful, but it also comes at certain costs. Executing Guardian on a target without using cover is tantamount to suicide. Executing Guardian on a target and use cover (to enable them to emergency elixir, etc) is potent, but it also spends the Guard on the PLD, which becomes a sitting target once it's faded off. If the PLD is smart, they'll plan ahead and backpedal, but the fact remains they still used their guard for it, which is quite a cost for a tank imo. If the PLD has already burned purify, they're suddenly a potential prime target for crowd control and a kill. Guardian can also throw the PLD into a very dangerous position if the person they're trying to save is exposed right in the middle of the enemy party.

Obviously it's hard to punish or outright impossible if the PLD has full resources, and especially guard and purify ready. They'll probably not be punishable. But sometimes they don't, because they can't control when an ally will need saving.

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

Unfortunately guard and it's LB are the only reason anyone would tolerate the class in a mode that's all about dps if they get rid of guardian then they'd have to buff PLD which would lead to a slew of complaints

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PLD actually has respectable burst DPS with its ability to stack Sword Oath. Confiteor, Intervene, Shield Bash, Intervene, with the associated Atonements, can make life difficult for your chosen target, or rushing down and finishing a weakened enemy.

I can certainly attest to pld having full capacity to be hurtful when played aggressively and also hard to kill, at least from my perspective.

So the elixir/guardian combo wasn't even something I was aware of until recently which is why all these questions, but the most pressing one remaining is, how often does pld have full resources to do this? I have seen it done a few times per match so I wonder how many times can this be expected to happen.

I disagree with the cost to pld, if executed sucessfully on a weakened ally who would otherwise die, it spares pld and their team a lot of incoming trouble. It's even worse if the saved team member is of some sturdy job, melee for example, because once they are done using elixir they can come to their saviour's aid with some big guns available and all that, while their other team members might also help if they know what's going on. Truth is, the mechanic doesn't take long enough to execute. On the other side, team members have to notice what's happening first then loose a second or two to decision making, switching target, moving etc...and of course each team member has their own first thoughts on how to react so even if somebody slaps a marker on someone...it might be too late to take any advantage of the situation...

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Originally Posted by WlyemR

PLD actually has respectable burst DPS with its ability to stack Sword Oath. Confiteor, Intervene, Shield Bash, Intervene, with the associated Atonements, can make life difficult for your chosen target, or rushing down and finishing a weakened enemy.

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in a 1v1 scenario sure thats indeed true (even though it cant solo kill) but that can be said for pretty much any job all which have higher burst than PLD, in terms of CC or FL where the setup will rarely ever be a 1v1 PLD falls short in the contribution of the teams overall dps let alone the damage taken thats why its LB and guardian are highly coveted

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Originally Posted by Bluish

I can certainly attest to pld having full capacity to be hurtful when played aggressively and also hard to kill, at least from my perspective.

So the elixir/guardian combo wasn't even something I was aware of until recently which is why all these questions, but the most pressing one remaining is, how often does pld have full resources to do this? I have seen it done a few times per match so I wonder how many times can this be expected to happen.

I disagree with the cost to pld, if executed sucessfully on a weakened ally who would otherwise die, it spares pld and their team a lot of incoming trouble. It's even worse if the saved team member is of some sturdy job, melee for example, because once they are done using elixir they can come to their saviour's aid with some big guns available and all that, while their other team members might also help if they know what's going on. Truth is, the mechanic doesn't take long enough to execute. On the other side, team members have to notice what's happening first then loose a second or two to decision making, switching target, moving etc...and of course each team member has their own first thoughts on how to react so even if somebody slaps a marker on someone...it might be too late to take any advantage of the situation...

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to answer your question of how often to expect the guard + cover combo while an ally uses elixir, it varies there have been matches where i never had to use it because my team was good at syncing kills whereas in other matches ive pulled it off 4 times but sometimes it didnt help to get a win.

indeed PLD can be somewhat hurtful but can mostly be ignored because its burst will never achieve a solo kill unless the opponent is bad at using recup and other resources

the total time for the guard + cover and ally use elixir is about 10s when including animation and reaction time, so if your hunting your opponent then a PLD rushes to them then wherever the PLD left creates the 3v4 scenario to your advantage which can increase to 3v5 if you disengage, and since PLD has already used Guardian theres nothing to stop your team achieving another kill then refocus to another or on the PLD because again outside of guard it doesnt have the resources to withstand anything more than a 1v2 setup unless theres NIN with LB , i recommend playing PLD to witness the cost before disagreeing completely

Here is the thing, I do trust your experience, but I'm only concerned with this skill being too useful to people who are likely communicating. I haven't seen it happening before and I think I must have about 1500 matches behind me altogether... Top ranked on my server are mostly same gang every season and these folks are known to help each other all too well. Those are the people I witnessed using this strategy and I'm still trying to figure if it's worth coming back to ranked at all in the face of them in particular being able to do that. I have never seen anyone on my team doing it, not to say that I wouldn't have missed it if it was happening rarely, I could have, somehow. As is, I haven't seen it and that sheer fact makes it far more concerning. It means to me that people with no want or capacity to communicate with other climbers will not encounter this strategy till knocking at crystal gate and will get a nasty surprise.

Well, I do hope that this discussion will help it all become a common knowledge, and you have been increadibly kind, so thank you, and all those who took time.

I keep reading "Guardian is a damage multiplier on the Paladin". While technically correct "if the Paladin stays close to his target", which sadly is what Guardian does initially - isn't the counter to this keeping distance to a target? Positioning and all that jazz.

And generally, given the 5s disparity between Guardian and Guard and having Holy Sheltron for personal use, doesn't it generally seem best practice to only use Guardian with Guard (or Phalanx) available?

Lastly, to the 3v5 talk when using this + elixir combo - it is 3v5 but whatever target is alive + yourself are still generating Limit Break and gain full ressources, so it isn't as bad as people make it out to be.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

I keep reading "Guardian is a damage multiplier on the Paladin". While technically correct "if the Paladin stays close to his target", which sadly is what Guardian does initially - isn't the counter to this keeping distance to a target? Positioning and all that jazz.

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Almost every job has an attack within the 10y not much positioning can be done if you're not gonna rely on guard, and even if you do position yourself away from the fight, how does that help the pld, when 2 opponents can just easily attack the teammate under guardian with no repercussion and thereby get a kill regardless

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

And generally, given the 5s disparity between Guardian and Guard and having Holy Sheltron for personal use, doesn't it generally seem best practice to only use Guardian with Guard (or Phalanx) available?

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Correct, but that kinda gives credence to everything that's been discussed

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Lastly, to the 3v5 talk when using this + elixir combo - it is 3v5 but whatever target is alive + yourself are still generating Limit Break and gain full ressources, so it isn't as bad as people make it out to be.

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So I'm a little confused are you saying guardian is a fair or unfair skill? Because that's what this thread is about, some consider it an unfair skill
To player attacking their opponent whereas I consider it fair to them but somewhat unfair to PLD