Something about Elidibus after 6.3

So I've been reviewing a bunch of cutscenes for a video I'm making, and one of them is suddenly standing out as curiously familiar after recent events. This is from 5.3, the cutscene where Y'shtola turns up and basically lays out Elidibus' whole deal right to his face:

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Elidibus: "I have aided heroes. I have made them. I have even become them. This served not only to strengthen me, but also to facilitate the work of my brothers, such as Emet-Selch, with his penchant for nation building."

Y'shtola: "Then you will be all too familiar with the fickleness of mankind. We change. We forget. And what little we do remember becomes twisted and fragmented over time. For which reason, you deem us unfit to carry on your legacy. But are you yourself free of these foibles? As the last witness of the Final Days, do you remember everything that was lost? Or even the things you care about?"

Elidibus: "Get to the point."

Y'shtola: "A primal is shaped by the hope that fuels it. Even should this hope be something as simple as the world's salvation, it is the collective desire of innumerable disparate souls crying out for deliverance. Having drawn your strength from such a cacophony of voices, can you truly be sure you still speak with your own?"

<Elidibus scoffs, and forces the music to change>

Elidibus: "Your question is irrelevant. No matter how much I should change, no matter how much I should forget, I shall ever remember my duty. At times I stand with my brethren. At times I stand against them. All that I might steer mankind and the very star upon their true course. For Elidibus is my name. And my mission. Guiding my every deed."

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Elidibus dodges the question here, but we learn both after the Seat of Sacrifice and from one of Emet's Tales from the Shadows stories that Y'shtola's right on the money; he's been forgetting important things, and no longer really grasps why he's carrying this duty, only that he is.

All this struck me as curiously reminiscent of the reason for the Twelve's epigraph:

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As beings who endure by the will of the star, we are susceptible to the influence of hopes and prayers. Thus do we commit our yokes herein, lest we stray from our purpose.

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The Twelve and Elidibus are fundamentally different, of course--basically the main thing we know about the Twelve is that they aren't primals--but both the problem and the reason for it is almost shockingly similar when looking at them side by side.

I'm not sure what this means, if anything, but I doubt it's nothing. Perhaps the situation with Elidibus was so clear even in the days surrounding the Sundering that the Twelve recognized a problem that was also going to impact them? That's admittedly a conservative guess, but I think there is a link here.

There's a few interesting cutscenes around that 'purpose' in 5.3.

Hythlodaeus: 'But know that his devotion is not without reason. Even if he himself can no longer remember what that reason is.'

Convocation Speaker (aka Lahabrea): 'You worry too much, Elidibus. This dedication to your duty verges on obsession.'

Elidibus: 'I bore witness to your final struggle with Emet-Selch. It seemed as if he saw something familiar in you. As if he mistook you for another.'
'...No, I recall not of whom he spoke.'

Elidibus: 'I am Elidibus! And it is my duty to steer mankind and the very star upon their true course. This I swore to... to someone. We spoke, and I swore... what? What did I...?'

And then there's that curious cutscene of Elidibus reaching out to FFI's Warrior of Light in their traditional (Crystal Tower gearset) outfit, a figure that we see at no other point in the story. Who did you forget, Elidibus? Whom did you make your promise to? Perhaps we'll find out in 6.4.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

And then there's that curious cutscene of Elidibus reaching out to FFI's Warrior of Light in their traditional (Crystal Tower gearset) outfit, a figure that we see at no other point in the story.

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Actually that figure was in the storybook about the Warriors of Light that we found earlier in 5.3. So that might have a different, much tamer explanation than the rest, which seems to mostly be implying Azem.

I don't expect a whole lot of striking revelations about what Elidibus forgot in this context, we've got a lot of hints and not a lot of suspects or screentime in Pandaemonium left to throw curveballs. The more curious part of this to me is the conceptual side of it, this weird link between these figures that absolutely knew of each other, but should otherwise have very little in common... yet they both describe facing a nearly identical problem.

I don't really want to see "Elidibus's promise" tied into being something he will say to us in Pandæmonium. It made perfect sense within the context of 5.3 on its own – a clear arc from the memory of his vow to the Convocation to protect the star (or whatever the exact wording was), to his ending where his mind has almost completely unravelled and he has lost even those memories, only knowing he made a promise to someone, clinging to his duty even after he has forgotten the reason behind it.

If they're going to throw out that dramatic implication and make it about a different promise he makes to us in Pandæmonium, it's going to have to be a really good concept for me to enjoy seeing it displace the other reading of the line.

Tbh I don't think the promise would be made to us considering he makes it before the timelines start converging into the present one. I could see it having been made to Azem though at some point in time. On a different tangent, I think Azem likely had traveled to Pandaemonium with Elidibus in the original timeline, so anything we glimpse is likely something Azem saw. Which makes me wonder...is the final tier of Pandaemonium going to reveal what Azem was actually doing when the Sundering occurred? Is the final boss (likely Athena) the one they were trying to deal with?

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Tbh I don't think the promise would be made to us considering he makes it before the timelines start converging into the present one.

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There is still no proof of any "original timeline" that we are altering with our actions. The main Endwalker time loop ran on the concept that the things we did in the past had already taken effect before we went there, so there's no reason for this to work differently.

Pandæmonium appearing in the aetherial sea doesn't necessarily mean that we changed the timeline and it's been there all along. It could have been moved there through time and space, and we'll learn who sent it there next time.

As Elidibus sent us back in time to Elpis, there was some critical realization that gave him peace in his final moments. Whatever that realization was is likely the point of the Pandaemonium raid series.

I think that if this story was primarily just about Lahabrea and Athena, then Elidibus' involvement in Pandaemonium would be superfluous, as Eric serves the same narrative function. I think we're going to encounter Azem, at least incognito, and get at least a partial explanation of what happened to them. And there's likely something in that event that shaped Elidibus' determination and made it deeply personal, even before he became the Heart of Zodiark. I think his promise was to protect the planet in Azem's stead.

With Pandaemonium now also existing in the present timeline, there's likely a threat to the star within Tartarus that has persisted into the present day. If I had to guess, I'd say it was the original Blasphemy. It's the only area that we hadn't cleansed yet in the role quests.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

With Pandaemonium now also existing in the present timeline, there's likely a threat to the star within Tartarus that has persisted into the present day. If I had to guess, I'd say it was the original Blasphemy. It's the only area that we hadn't cleansed yet in the role quests.

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I'm betting money that Athena was the original Blasphemy. She did wish to know everything, and if she had a similar discovery like the Ea that made her go into despair, it would have triggered the original transformation. And if there was an original timeline and Azem was there in Pandaemonium instead of us, they would have been able to put 2 and 2 together. I have a sneaking suspicion that Pandaemonium likely always existed in the Lifestream and close to the Underworld itself, as anything that broke out of Pandaemonium would just be drawn into the Lifestream and ripped apart by it.

When Elidibus mentioned his promise, he mentioned he made it to '' SOMEONE '' and I don't think you can gloss over that. There is no denying that he loved his people in general, and worked to the best of his capabilities, sacrificing anything at any cost, to protect them and their future, but in this case whatever promise he made, I have no reason to question whether it's a singular person he made a promise to, or the entirety of the Convocation or just ancients in general. It's quite clear there is someone, a specific person, he made a promise to, and that's what we are going to find out. I do not think the promise was made to WoL, as it's pretty clear the last tier of the raid is going to take place in current time. Whether we go back to the ancient world though, remains to be seen.

I personally think that, as most have already speculated, that the promise was made to Azem. My own theory is that perhaps Elidibus wasn't exactly thrilled at Azem's departure from the convocation, and reached out to Azem to find out what they were going to do, and perhaps we'll get to know the answer. Then he also made a promise that despite Azem's disapproval of the summoning and their departure from the convocation, Elidibus is going to do his best nevertheless to protect the star as Zodiark's heart while Azem is gone doing their thing, as protecting the star would still be in both of their interests and their main objectives.

Elidibus and Azem seem to have some sort of a bond, and I think Lahabrea makes a few comments about Elidibus starting to sound like Azem, and that Azem has an undue influence on people. Perhaps that was partially the reason why Elidibus detached himself from Zodiark to begin with, to find common ground, as perhaps he perceived Azem would do something similar.

In regards to the main topic of the thread, I can see the resemblance. Perhaps just taking a type of form like Zodiark or the Twelve, you become subjected to influence of aether and dynamis in a way that it shapes your memories, personality and such.

When it comes to Elidibus and his memory loss I had always thought whatever said promise was and to whom it was made to must have been either not important enough for him to remember or that it was tangled up with a bad memory. As he tells Emet Selch that he doesn't want to look at the memory crystals because why remember something if you're just going to forget about it all over again. Now I wonder if said promise might have conflicted with the rejoinings or with his role as a primal that only remembered their function.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

When it comes to Elidibus and his memory loss I had always thought whatever said promise was and to whom it was made to must have been either not important enough for him to remember or that it was tangled up with a bad memory. As he tells Emet Selch that he doesn't want to look at the memory crystals because why remember something if you're just going to forget about it all over again. Now I wonder if said promise might have conflicted with the rejoinings or with his role as a primal that only remembered their function.

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I'm inclined to agree that perhaps the memory crystal held memories that would've made Elidibus conflicted about their mission. But the memory loss and general loss of self seems to have been a gradual thing, so without knowing how instrumental Elidibus was at the start of the rejoining process, I don't know how confident I am that the memory crystal held memories that would've played an instrumental part in influencing Elidibus' actions.

In the Tales from the Shadows story, Emet seems to suggest that Elidibus emerged from Zodiark as a very different person. It's hard to say in retrospect whether that would have been reversed by looking at his soul crystal's memories, as Amon still very much retained his new identity than the one from his past life.

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Originally Posted by Tehmon

Whether we go back to the ancient world though, remains to be seen.

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Just a quick note on this. During one of the very first cutscenes in the Asphodelos tier, Claudien tells us the following about the unmarked Lahabrea crystal that prompted this story:

'Not long after the exodus was declared, we recovered an unusual crystal shard during a routine observation. It appeared before us suddenly, as if propelled to the surface by some unknown force.'

Someone likely hurled the crystal into the lifestream in the past. This is Backrix's journal all over again.

If I had to guess, I think the Tartarus story will be split between the two time periods with two different parties, in a nod to FFII.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Just a quick note on this. During one of the very first cutscenes in the Asphodelos tier, Claudien tells us the following about the unmarked Lahabrea crystal that prompted this story:

'Not long after the exodus was declared, we recovered an unusual crystal shard during a routine observation. It appeared before us suddenly, as if propelled to the surface by some unknown force.'

Someone likely hurled the crystal into the lifestream in the past. This is Backrix's journal all over again.

If I had to guess, I think the Tartarus story will be split between the two time periods with two different parties, in a nod to FFII.

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*puts on tinfoil hat*

Clearly it was Azem's actual soul crystal that was sent into the present in order to encourage us to come to the past to discover what is going on so we can go back to the present and finally destroy that which Azem was trying to destroy.

*takes off tinfoil hat*

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

So I've been reviewing a bunch of cutscenes for a video I'm making, and one of them is suddenly standing out as curiously familiar after recent events…

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That’s a smart catch and if not truly a story beat, it’s at least something the writers are looking to parallel thematically. While the 12 likely aren’t Primals, it’s all but confirmed they are recreations of Venat’s peers, similar to the Watcher. (Side note, is Azema maybe just another Venat copy as she chose not to make a copy of the MIA Azem?… unless Oschon is Azem yada yada.)

If the 12 are tethered by their memories (or ones given to them by Venat) then it stands that they a guided in ways Elidibus was not - allowing him to unravel while the 12 continue in their work (whatever that may be).