Regarding the 'soul' of an Eikon/Primal

I've been wondering about this for a while, in case it becomes a future plot point.

Take Bahamut. There was a historical Bahamut who was slain and then summoned back into existence as a Primal. Would the Primal Bahamut actually possess the same soul as the historical Bahamut, albeit corrupted into a primal form, or would have the Primal been a completely new entity shaped by his worshippers' belief? If the latter, would that mean the original Bahamut's soul is still floating around somewhere in the lifestream, if even that, since dragons aren't exactly from this world?

One could extend that same question to Varis and Anima. Anima used his body, but is Varis' soul part of the equation in any way?

I am not sure if this was ever fully explained or even brought up, so this inquiry is here in case anyone knows more.

The only primals who were ensouled are ones that were born of a still-living individual like Shiva and Tsukuyomi.

The lore is really explicit that once a soul is claimed by the Lifestream, it is not coming back save for when it is purified then reborn in a new body. Even the Ancients for all their phenomenal power and knowledge believed such to be an absolute truth and one that shouldn't be tampered with...and reasonably so given the unpleasant results that came of folks like Edda attempting to do so, as you're liable to just end up with something that is decidedly not the person you're trying to revive.

Before Endwalker I would've said that this is indeterminate largely because of the nature of primal summoning, and I used to have a hypothetical about Ifrit, but I actually realized that the caster role quest literally is my old hypothetical with a few elements changed. (Spoilers for that questline, but it's ultimately not important):

Does Vaindreau, the malformed primal born of the Church's attempt to revive the Heaven's Ward, have their memories because he has their souls? Or does he have those memories because the guy that summoned him assumed that they'd have those memories, and so the product of his summoning had them? It's ultimately impossible to tell.

That said, Endwalker did indirectly answer this elsewhere: because primal summoning is bastardized creation magic, then primals are ultimately arcane entities. This means, like all arcane entities that are directly the result of creation magic, primals don't have souls--however, this wouldn't lead to a meaningful difference, as the existence (or lack thereof of) a soul doesn't change anything meaningful. There are exceptions, though--as KageTokage mentioned Shiva and Tsukuyomi would've had them, as would Thordan and the Knights Twelve, and Alexander (which actually has basically the same route to that result as Phoinix). Tiamat's testimony that she could tell the primal Bahamut wasn't her brother suggests he's not in that category.

Anima is a genuinely interesting gray area in that respect, though. Did Varis' body being used like that yank his soul back into play, similar to when we pulled in Emet's soul for the Seat of Sacrifice? Does a soul immediately leave a body on death in this universe, or is it there for a while, and therefore it got pulled in? Or was his soul not involved at all, and it was just a zombie situation? Personally I'd guess he's in there, largely because it would bolster Anima's whole concept; as the thing exists as the deified spirit of the Empire, it would make sense that Varis' spirit itself is shackled in there, but we ultimately just don't have any evidence for it.

We got two answers to questions related to this in past out-of-world talks but keep in mind some things ended up evolving a bit Stormblood to Endwalker.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fernehalwes

Q:
After Bahamut Prime is defeated, it is assumed that Bahamut's regenerating body is dispersed into aether so he can finally rest in peace. Does this mean that Bahamut may once again be resurrected as a Primal in a future patch, should we ever step foot in Meracydia?

A:
As has been mentioned in past quests, most primal summoning comes down to the faith of the primal's followers. That faith acts as a beacon for the primal's dispersed aetherial essence, allowing for the remanifestation of a being whose infinite number of parts were tossed into that giant blender known as the Lifestream. If enough followers of Bahamut (or perhaps Dalamud, which, ultimately is the same concept) were to gather and perform a summoning, then technically anything is possible (with the proper amount of aether to act as the catalyst), and it doesn't necessarily need to be on Meracydia (which, in many places is still a smoldering waste, even today). What needs to be understood is that the state of the believers when the summoning occurs directly affects the manner in which the dispersed essence of the deceased is reconfigured. Tiamat, knows of this first hand due to her failed attempt to resummon her fallen beloved. She and Bahamut's brood knew Bahamut better than anyone, but since their hearts were darkened by sorrow stemming from the loss, coupled with hate directed towards the Allagans, the Bahamut that was ultimately brought back ended up being naught but a twisted shell of the dragon Tiamat remembered. This also explains the differences between the actions and temperaments of other primals spanning from 1.0 to 2.0. The needs and desires of the believers doing the summoning changed following the Calamity, resulting in changes in the primals they summoned, Ifrit and Titan, even Shiva all being good examples (though Shiva's differences span back further than just 5 years ago).

---

Quote:

---

Gamer Escape (Moose): On the official forums, you went back for some unanswered Q&A questions at one point. You talked about how Bahamut was re-materialized by his summoning. A dead thing goes into the Lifestream, it gets blended into pieces, and then people pray and that beacon draws and reassembles them somehow, even though it’s never really that thing again. So…Ysayle. She reaches out; she summons Shiva…allegedly. But, Hraesvelgr alleges that he ate Shiva and that she’s been with him the whole time. Where’s Shiva?

Koji: Well, yes, the eating part is still there. But remember how we once talked about how there could be multiple Ifrits? You’re just assembling pieces from the aether and forming them into something. There are parts of that being and parts of just regular energy in that core. It’s not all of their pieces. It’s some of the memories and then you’re filling out the rest. It’s kind of like when they find some tyrannosaurus bones and have to recreate the rest with plaster copies. It’s not the actual being. And then it dies off, and a little piece of it, while it’s existing in that form, goes back to the Lifestream.

When you’re talking about the Lifestream, there’s all this weirdness. And then it seems like every patch there’s a new way to summon a primal…but that’s not my fault! We have to keep thinking of new ways because they want special situations. But the essence is that, yeah, you’re pulling a piece of that person and filling in the rest of the energy that is formed based on what the summoner is thinking at that time.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

Does a soul immediately leave a body on death in this universe, or is it there for a while, and therefore it got pulled in?

---

Maybe a soulstone can make a soul reside longer, and maybe also easier to restore? There isnt much lore about how these work. They seem to be able to keep the soul intact over time.

And since soulstones can interact with the owner of one (in both gaining and giving knowledge), there is quite a lot of options open here

It feels a little unclear if it's actually the soul proper that was preserved from individuals like Shatotto or Archmagus Noah, or if their crystals were simply carrying a very fancy enchantment that was able to weave their memories into an artificial consciousness.

Well when you're doing the whm lv 50 quest both siblings don't question if it's A-Towa-Cant's soul appearing out of the soul stone to give you a boost or not. They just accept the assistance and claim that you really were/are his successor.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Would the Primal Bahamut actually possess the same soul as the historical Bahamut, albeit corrupted into a primal form, or would have the Primal been a completely new entity shaped by his worshippers' belief?

---

If it's summoned without incorporating a tangible part of the old Bahamut, then it would be a new entity. Old Bahamut's soul is somewhere in Etheirys's lifestream if it hasn't already entered into a new dragon randomly.

Take the Eden Primals for instance. We summoned them using Eden's aether manipulating abilities forming them from our own thoughts and experiences. They came out as the right element, but it got really freaky, freally fast.

Leviathan with two heads. Titan with armor and an ATV. Ramuh with Ixion's donkey legs. Ifrit looking insanely different from before, with a Garuda that was only slightly different that then fused into Raksapastayolanda. Shiva based on us telling Ryne about Ysayle.

Let's take that last example. Ryne clearly has a soul. Ysayle did too. They can both become Shiva, albeit different Shivas with Ryne's incorporating her idea of Hydaelyn based on the cave paintings.

It's very much Koji's answer to Moose. We get an idea of what the primal will be, and then it manifests as a rough approximation of those ideas as a new entity. It'll only ever have a soul though, if it's around long enough for the planet to bestow it with one(or if a person summons it onto themselves), which apparently hasn't happened yet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

would that mean the original Bahamut's soul is still floating around somewhere in the lifestream, if even that, since dragons aren't exactly from this world?

---

I would assume that dragons go back to the lifestream, if only due to the proximity. The local lifestream is the closest destination for any soul that dies on Hydaelyn to go, whether they were born there or not.

Though that does raise another question. What if someone dies far away from any major sources of aether? What if you die in deep space with nothing around? Does your soul just float there forever (or at least until it gets pulled into something else's orbit in a million years?)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

I would assume that dragons go back to the lifestream, if only due to the proximity. The local lifestream is the closest destination for any soul that dies on Hydaelyn to go, whether they were born there or not.

Though that does raise another question. What if someone dies far away from any major sources of aether? What if you die in deep space with nothing around? Does your soul just float there forever (or at least until it gets pulled into something else's orbit in a million years?)

---

Meteion hints that's what happens. That if there isn't a strong enough pull of a lifestream a soul floats until it gets drawn to the next biggest lifestream.

I'm actually more interested in Ramuh, since he actually sticked around long enough to talk to us as a soul ball not unlike the Ascians, which heavily implies he's more aetherically complex than just "thoughts and memories made flesh"

(Also Shatotto's described as an actual simulacrum and not the original. Basically her memories up to a point put inside a crystal... though considering what I just said, then Ramuh's "core" could be similar to that.)

For Ramuh, I think it's because the Sylphs themselves think of Ramuh as a wise protector. Akin to how "ghost" Hyth was able to see through what was going on in because Emet had a stray thought that Hyth would see through it. The Sylphs probably thought "Ramuh will know what is going on and the best course of action to take!" Which of course creates a Ramuh who indeed is smart and wise enough to see how he effects those around him and to talk with the Scions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

For Ramuh, I think it's because the Sylphs themselves think of Ramuh as a wise protector. Akin to how "ghost" Hyth was able to see through what was going on in because Emet had a stray thought that Hyth would see through it. The Sylphs probably thought "Ramuh will know what is going on and the best course of action to take!" Which of course creates a Ramuh who indeed is smart and wise enough to see how he effects those around him and to talk with the Scions.

---

Yeah, that's always the thing about primals you have to ask: is this unexpected thing they're doing actually out of place for the people that summoned them? Because it's always entirely possible that they summoned a primal that seems to be able to do the impossible just because they think they'd be able to do it. Ramuh's intelligence is already evidence of that (he's not the only primal smarter than their summoners, but he's the first one where that's a plot point); could he not simply do things similar to what the Ascians can do because the Sylphs went 'yeah Ramuh would be able to do that'?

During the Aglaia storyline, when you visit Rhalgr's Reach, G'raha comments that Rhalgr has a lot of similarities to Ramuh. It's possible that the Sylphs met Rhalgr at some point and simply modelled their bearded one after him. I wonder if there's a similar explanation for Godbert's existence in the field of comparative mythology. I'd love to see a showdown between the three.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

I'm actually more interested in Ramuh, since he actually sticked around long enough to talk to us as a soul ball not unlike the Ascians, which heavily implies he's more aetherically complex than just "thoughts and memories made flesh"

---

Wasnt he summoned as the 'wise' leader, instead of summoned as a warrior? A leader is a lot more capable of going into conversation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

During the Aglaia storyline, when you visit Rhalgr's Reach, G'raha comments that Rhalgr has a lot of similarities to Ramuh. It's possible that the Sylphs met Rhalgr at some point and simply modelled their bearded one after him. I wonder if there's a similar explanation for Godbert's existence in the field of comparative mythology. I'd love to see a showdown between the three.

---

I still think that the only reason why Godbert is so powerful is because the entirety of the Hildibrand questlines are told from Nashu's eccentric self, so everything exaggerated is her exaggerating it. After all, Julyan being a horrible cook yet being able to make an anti-zombie powder makes no sense...unless of course it's a different type of cooking, namely Alchemy, that she's good at.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

Wasnt he summoned as the 'wise' leader, instead of summoned as a warrior? A leader is a lot more capable of going into conversation.

---

I meant more that he hangs around after the fight unlike most of the Primals we face, with the exception of Susano who is also an outlier in that they summoned themself from the aether from the Kojin relics and the passive belief of the Kojin in the kami. His temperament can be chalked up to the Sylps, but I don't recall other Primals stayng past our battles.

Of course, this assumes that it's not just a quirk of their summoning as Cleretic mentioned. After all, just because we haven't seen a "soul" of another Primal doesn't mean it doesn't exist and it was just never relevant to the plot, and that "soul" could be just a simulacrum of one and not an actual "soul" plucked from the Lifestream.