Retainers and lootbox gambling

Specific issue comes up with items that can only be obtained via ventures. Like Young Water Lilies.
These can only be gathered by retainers.
The only way to get MORE retainers is spending real money.

Spending more IRL money, equals more 'rolls' on the venture lootbox, and a higher chance on getting an item you cannot get anywhere else.

Is this pretty much a lootbox scenario that other games get bashed for?

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

Specific issue comes up with items that can only be obtained via ventures. Like Young Water Lilies.
These can only be gathered by retainers.
The only way to get MORE retainers is spending real money.

Spending more IRL money, equals more 'rolls' on the venture lootbox, and a higher chance on getting an item you cannot get anywhere else.

Is this pretty much a lootbox scenario that other games get bashed for?

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More rolls is just more rolls, not a higher chance. Without much context for the lootboxes, I'm going to say no it's not the same. There's nothing a player needs for progression.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

More rolls is just more rolls, not a higher chance. Without much context for the lootboxes, I'm going to say no it's not the same. There's nothing a player needs for progression.

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While each roll is itself not an increased chance, the fact that you get to roll multiple times does (sort of) improve your overall chances. (I say "sort of" because statistics are weird.) I suspect that's what OP meant by "increased chance".

That said. I don't think it's quite the same. I do think it's a side effect -- and an unfortunate one -- of the fact that our 'personal storage bank' is the inventory of retainers, and that obtaining extra storage means obtaining extra retainers... and that obtaining extra retainers thus means extra venture slots.

But loot boxes in most games are designed to inspire FOMO as much as possible. "You want this shiny mount/outfit/whatever? Well, it's only in these loot boxes for three weeks!" And then you can spend X real-world currency for Y more 'pulls' (to use gacha terminology) on said loot boxes.

Retainer venture loot tables are neither time-limited, nor can you 'speed up' the venture. If things like retainer-venture minions were time-limited, or if you could spend real-world money to send the retainers out repeatedly very quickly (e.g. if there was no upper limit on how many 'chances' you could purchase) -- or especially if both were true -- I think it would be that same sort of problematic, yes.

But I'll point out that a standard subscription gives you 8 characters per world, and there's multiple worlds per data-center; if you really wanted to game the system, you could have your freebie retainers across a whole bunch of alts, all running the ventures to try to get the drops you wanted, and then funnel them back to your original character. (Yeah, it's a pain-in-the-butt, but if they belong to the same FC you could use the FC chest to transfer items, and otherwise you could ask a friend to hold on to things or mail them to your alt for you, or whatever.)

Arguably, that gives you more potential concurrent 'chances' at the thing than just buying more retainers does. And that's the main reason that, even if I think it's unfortunate that stuff works out this way, I do think the additional venture slots and thus additional shots at getting something you want from that loot table are more a side effect of the (admittedly irritating) way this game handles personal storage than an actual monetization strategy.

I mean, if it is a monetization strategy, it's a really bad one (and by "bad" I mean "honestly not likely to be that effective by the standards of horrible lootbox systems").

I can kinda see what you mean, and I do feel like Retainers need a bit of TLC and updating (Such as making switching jobs easier) but I think comparing them to the predatory nature of actual lootbox games is a bit of a stretch. One thing to keep in mind, and I could be wrong, is that everything found via Retainers can be sold for Gil on the marketplace.

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

Specific issue comes up with items that can only be obtained via ventures. Like Young Water Lilies.
These can only be gathered by retainers.
The only way to get MORE retainers is spending real money.

Spending more IRL money, equals more 'rolls' on the venture lootbox, and a higher chance on getting an item you cannot get anywhere else.

Is this pretty much a lootbox scenario that other games get bashed for?

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No because you get two free. (Three if you pay for the remote app). Loot boxes are typically scorned (Diablo immortal) when they are the ONLY way to get things in a game. Besides your own example shows these are all cosmetics. Basically no player power comes from it.

Most definitely not the same as a lootbox.

A lootbox gives you a single chance to obtain random loot, which may or may not be desirable.

The retainer gives you:
Additional storage space
Marketboard listings
The ability to choose between ventures that target specific loot or ventures that can yield random loot
Multiple attempts at loot for the single fee paid (theoretically up to 720 in a 30 day period though more realistically 30-120 chances depending how long the player is online)

I'm hardly familiar with all the games out there that sell lootboxes but I suspect none of them are giving you that many loot chances for just $2 not to mention all the additional functions.

This is the biggest stretch I have ever seen to tie in a loot box scheme. Where can I cash out? Oh wait you can't.

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

Is this pretty much a lootbox scenario that other games get bashed for?

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Lol, you could buy the entire mogstore 5x over for the price required to hire enough retainers to gain any noticeable benefit.

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Originally Posted by Zaniel

Lol, you could buy the entire mogstore 5x over for the price required to hire enough retainers to gain any noticeable benefit.

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Plus there's a cap on retainers; you get two for free, one for paying for the mobile app access that lets you use the market remotely et al, and then you can add on 7 more to your subscription... but that's it. 10's the max.

And if you really want to get max benefit from doing ventures on them, you're going to have some who are botanists, some who are miners, some who are fishers, and some who are combat jobs... and since some of the rare minions are scattered across various venture types, it means you can't even use all 10 to try for whatever thing you want to get.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

Plus there's a cap on retainers; you get two for free, one for paying for the mobile app access that lets you use the market remotely et al, and then you can add on 7 more to your subscription... but that's it. 10's the max.

And if you really want to get max benefit from doing ventures on them, you're going to have some who are botanists, some who are miners, some who are fishers, and some who are combat jobs... and since some of the rare minions are scattered across various venture types, it means you can't even use all 10 to try for whatever thing you want to get.

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I assume that is to help push the sales of the retainer level up stuff on the store. Buy a bunch of retainers, pay to get them leveled, then try and get what you are after in ventures. Repeat. I would never spend that money on the process but they have that stuff for sale so I am sure someone is.

Which realistically at that point I suspect a person would be debating waiting the weeks to level them slow, spending a lot of money to do it fast for a chance, or going a more dangerous route to get the funds to buy what they need off the market board.

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

I assume that is to help push the sales of the retainer level up stuff on the store. Buy a bunch of retainers, pay to get them leveled, then try and get what you are after in ventures. Repeat. I would never spend that money on the process but they have that stuff for sale so I am sure someone is.

Which realistically at that point I suspect a person would be debating waiting the weeks to level them slow, spending a lot of money to do it fast for a chance, or going a more dangerous route to get the funds to buy what they need off the market board.

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You must be really flexible with the amount of stretching you're doing. :rolleyes:

Like ... if you want to stretch it enough, just about everything can be inferred to have some nefarious intend behind it. Level jump is a service that has been around since the beginning of time and literally every single MMO has it. Also, the nature of the medium is always more char = more chance = more accessibility to content. I have 4 max level alt. Sure, that'll give me more free retainers but also:

- I can gear savage/tome 4 times as fast.
- I never have to grind for craft/gather materia 'cause just doing weekly I would be swimming in them with like 10-15 minute effort a week.
- I have so many tome to buy mat that I sell for profit.

And I don't even have to spend a single penny more than people who play 1 char.

And ... bunch of other stuffs. The reason lootbox is often frown at because it's very singular in its purpose. With lootbox you either getting what you want or you're burning your money, repeatably. Having alt or extra retainer give you a whole set of service that's not even remotely the same.

Would say essentially venture coffers are a form of lootboxes. Players doing quick ventures hunt for these as they give random dyes, most preferably jet black or pure white.

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

Specific issue comes up with items that can only be obtained via ventures. Like Young Water Lilies.
These can only be gathered by retainers.
The only way to get MORE retainers is spending real money.

Spending more IRL money, equals more 'rolls' on the venture lootbox, and a higher chance on getting an item you cannot get anywhere else.

Is this pretty much a lootbox scenario that other games get bashed for?

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Yeah it is. Anyone saying otherwise is just coping. Is it as predatory as some games? Nah. Is it a lootbox system? Absolutely. But I don't think anyone's going to lose their rent check for paying for extra retainers.

Now fantasia addiction is a real thing.

Retainers just shouldn't cost real money in a game where you must buy the game and pay a monthly fee. Its a F2P feature usualy.

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Originally Posted by Conadrium

No because you get two free. (Three if you pay for the remote app). Loot boxes are typically scorned (Diablo immortal) when they are the ONLY way to get things in a game. Besides your own example shows these are all cosmetics. Basically no player power comes from it.

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Most games that offer lootboxes, also offer free ones. This is not diffirent here.

But the effective way to measure here is how much gil it generates. And each retainer for that reason does generate some. So on that part it is a pay to win or lootbox mechanic where paying gives advantages. But a key aspect is: you dont need the retainers to obtain most items as they can be put on the market. And retainers are usualy still significantly slower at generating gil than crafting/gathering can generate. Sure they do take some of your time for this, but getting actual money also does.

But i do not see it as a lootbox mechanic because the retainers involve more features that matter more (selling slots and inventory). The ventures are just a bonus and a way to supply some resources. And it involves similar rng to trial/raid runs into getting rare items (except not demanding skill).

Lootbox mechanics often involve psychological issues in them, which cause people to retry and become jaleous etc. That is the reason why they are a problem. And in this game the treasure maps are closest towards a lootbox (and when buying with gil are truly a gamble). But this is also an expectation in an RPG. An rpg without random loot will just not feel satisfying to play as it makes the entire thing predictable/linear.

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Originally Posted by Venur

Retainers just shouldn't cost real money in a game where you must buy the game and pay a monthly fee. Its a F2P feature usualy.

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They're mainly there for extra storage, which is a luxury more than a necessity.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

They're mainly there for extra storage, which is a luxury more than a necessity.

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If you are into crafting, it is very hard to only have 2 retainers. They also keep adding currencies to the game which fills up extra inventory space too. I created alts to get more retainers for storage.

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Originally Posted by Toutatis

If you are into crafting, it is very hard to only have 2 retainers. They also keep adding currencies to the game which fills up extra inventory space too. I created alts to get more retainers for storage.

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Currencies have little to no impact. If you're talking about things like trial totems, that's a focus issue. Handle them one at a time and there's no storage problem to be had.

I'm into crafting and I had one extra retainer for a couple months as I got myself up to speed. I fish and I've never had an issue with storage as I focused on each region.

Someone will inevitably bring up dyes to which I'll respond that I keep pigments on hand and have all the tribes unlocked.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

They're mainly there for extra storage, which is a luxury more than a necessity.

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Well myself I use them to have all 3 gathering class and more selling slot. But even if it was only for more storage, it still something you usually see in F2P not in full P2P models.

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Originally Posted by Toutatis

If you are into crafting, it is very hard to only have 2 retainers. They also keep adding currencies to the game which fills up extra inventory space too. I created alts to get more retainers for storage.

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this is me lol, I have 5 retainers and their inventories are all maxed out with crafting mats, random currencies/totems, and housing items since I ran out of space in my house storage.

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Originally Posted by Venur

Well myself I use them to have all 3 gathering class and more selling slot. But even if it was only for more storage, it still something you usually see in F2P not in full P2P models.

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It's not the same. Those other models are way more restrictive and have less overall space. If you account for things like the armory chest and saddlebag, you have ample space. You just have to focus on doing one thing at a time or go tier by tier with a set of jobs.