Paladin Low Level Damage Is Unacceptable

So the new paladin rework had a lot of stuff that works well. What doesn't work well is damage until they learn their magic combo. In palace of the dead for example, paladin doesn't deal enough damage to solo floors 150+ and it was virtually impossible to kill the level 150 boss.

Paladins damage has been nerfed too severely at low levels because its damage was shifted to a magic combo, and it doesn't even learn holy spirit until 64.

Y'all need to find some way to restore low level damage because its almost unworkable now.

Perhaps Holy Spirit and Divine Might can be moved to level 45, they won't have atonement yet but every combo would end with a 450 potency hit which might help restore balance without redoing the whole class?

As an ancient paladin enjoyer, play something else. This job is clunky, broken and has the most bland VFX/Animations.

Its only saving grace is that it uses swords. Not enough to keep me around when you have smoother and better options.
This rework just showed they don’t care much about the job, cover still being left as it is. Atonement spam instead of making it more lively with different animations or something. Yes they got a few QoL, still didn’t change the core issues.

People saying you need to wait for a expansion release are delusional. You shouldn’t have to wait THIS long to have significant and real changes on a job that is struggling and bottom of the barrel from many angles.

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Originally Posted by Defmetal

So the new paladin rework had a lot of stuff that works well. What doesn't work well is damage until they learn their magic combo. In palace of the dead for example, paladin doesn't deal enough damage to solo floors 150+ and it was virtually impossible to kill the level 150 boss.

Paladins damage has been nerfed too severely at low levels because its damage was shifted to a magic combo, and it doesn't even learn holy spirit until 64.

Y'all need to find some way to restore low level damage because its almost unworkable now.

Perhaps Holy Spirit and Divine Might can be moved to level 45, they won't have atonement yet but every combo would end with a 450 potency hit which might help restore balance without redoing the whole class?

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current PLD has already gotten a solo clear and killed behemoth in Potd

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Originally Posted by Defmetal

So the new paladin rework had a lot of stuff that works well. What doesn't work well is damage until they learn their magic combo. In palace of the dead for example, paladin doesn't deal enough damage to solo floors 150+ and it was virtually impossible to kill the level 150 boss.

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Weird because shortly after the patch I watched a PotD stream where the streamer soloed all the way till 200 with the changed PLD :p

What do you mean that the devs don't account for balance at lo-
*double checks drk*
*learns bubble at 70*
*lols*
for balance at low levels! Seriously though, it's been a thing for ages and I don't see them fixing it any time soon, lol.

It was balanced just fine at low levels until the patch. They -removed- damage from its low level combos and shifted it to its high level combos. Which means that at 90 it balances out but at low levels they are just weaker.

There are numerous ways for them to improve this but they learn things too late. They can keep the rotation the same potency just slide some of the numbers back to melee combo

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Originally Posted by Defmetal

So the new paladin rework had a lot of stuff that works well. What doesn't work well is damage until they learn their magic combo. In palace of the dead for example, paladin doesn't deal enough damage to solo floors 150+ and it was virtually impossible to kill the level 150 boss.

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I actually had this exact problem long before the rework, probably in Shadowbringers. I failed floor 150 because of lack of damage, although I had tried to use one of the special disguises which might have been a wrong decision.

But it is a tank. It's not damage dealer and tanks have a trait that reduces damage that used to be optional by turning on or off their stance.

But since you want to compare tank damage, let's compare it to GNB at level 60 over 60 seconds, assuming they already prepped as much fire power as they can for their burst windows.

Gunbreaker

Code:

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00:00 No Mercy (20%)
00:00 Sonic Break 300 + 600 over time
01:00 Danger Zone 250
02:50 Gnashing Fang 380.
05:00 Savage Claw 460.
07:50 Wicked Talon 540.
10:00 Burst Strike 380.
12:50 Solid Barrel 320.
15:00 Burst Strike 380.

17:50 Keen Edge 150.
20:00 Brutal Shell 240.
(No Mercy ends. 4000 into 4800 potency.)
22:50 Solid Barrel 320.
25:00 Keen Edge 150.
27:50 Brutal Shell 240.
30:00 Solid Barrel 320.

31:00 Danger Zone 250.
32:50 Gnashing Fang 380.
35:00 Savage Claw 460.
37:50 Wicked Talon 540.

40:00 Keen Edge 150.
42:50 Brutal Shell 240.
45:00 Solid Barrel 320.

47:50 Keen Edge 150.
50:00 Brutal Shell 240.
52:50 Burst Strike 380.
55:00 Solid Barrel 320.
57:50 Keen Edge 150.
60:00 Brutal Shell 240.

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Paladin

Code:

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00:00 Fight or Flight (25%)
00:00 Goring Blade 700
00:75 Spirits Within 270
01:50 Circle of Scorn 100 + 150 over time
02:50 Royal Authority 380.
05:00 Fast Blade 200.
07:50 Riot Blade 280.
10:00 Royal Authority 380.
12:50 Fast Blade 200.
15:00 Riot Blade 280.
17:50 Royal Authority 380.
20:00 Fast Blade 200.
(Fight or Flight ends. 3520 into 4400 potency.)

22:50 Riot Blade 280.
25:00 Royal Authority 380.
27:50 Fast Blade 200.
30:00 Riot Blade 280.

30:75 Spirits Within 270.
31:50 Circle of Scorn 100 + 150 over time.
32:50 Royal Authority 380.

35:00 Fast Blade 200.
37:50 Riot Blade 280.
40:00 Royal Authority 380.
42:50 Fast Blade 200.
45:00 Riot Blade 280.
47:50 Royal Authority 380.
50:00 Fast Blade 200.
52:50 Riot Blade 280.
55:00 Royal Authority 380.
57:50 Fast Blade 200.
60:00 Riot Blade 280.

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That's 9500 on PLD over 60 seconds and 9650 on GNB over 60 seconds.

To be honest, I included something inside of their buffs that wouldn't have fit without skill speed as well, so it wasn't a perfect calculation. But with only a 150 potency difference, there isn't much difference between the two tanks over 60 seconds at level 60.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I actually had this exact problem long before the rework, probably in Shadowbringers. I failed floor 150 because of lack of damage, although I had tried to use one of the special disguises which might have been a wrong decision.

But it is a tank. It's not damage dealer and tanks have a trait that reduces damage that used to be optional by turning on or off their stance.

But since you want to compare tank damage, let's compare it to GNB at level 60 over 60 seconds, assuming they already prepped as much fire power as they can for their burst windows.

Gunbreaker

Code:

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00:00 No Mercy (20%)
00:00 Sonic Break 300 + 600 over time
01:00 Danger Zone 250
02:50 Gnashing Fang 380.
05:00 Savage Claw 460.
07:50 Wicked Talon 540.
10:00 Burst Strike 380.
12:50 Solid Barrel 320.
15:00 Burst Strike 380.

17:50 Keen Edge 150.
20:00 Brutal Shell 240.
(No Mercy ends. 4000 into 4800 potency.)
22:50 Solid Barrel 320.
25:00 Keen Edge 150.
27:50 Brutal Shell 240.
30:00 Solid Barrel 320.

31:00 Danger Zone 250.
32:50 Gnashing Fang 380.
35:00 Savage Claw 460.
37:50 Wicked Talon 540.

40:00 Keen Edge 150.
42:50 Brutal Shell 240.
45:00 Solid Barrel 320.

47:50 Keen Edge 150.
50:00 Brutal Shell 240.
52:50 Burst Strike 380.
55:00 Solid Barrel 320.
57:50 Keen Edge 150.
60:00 Brutal Shell 240.

---

Paladin

Code:

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00:00 Fight or Flight (25%)
00:00 Goring Blade 700
00:75 Spirits Within 270
01:50 Circle of Scorn 100 + 150 over time
02:50 Royal Authority 380.
05:00 Fast Blade 200.
07:50 Riot Blade 280.
10:00 Royal Authority 380.
12:50 Fast Blade 200.
15:00 Riot Blade 280.
17:50 Royal Authority 380.
20:00 Fast Blade 200.
(Fight or Flight ends. 3520 into 4400 potency.)

22:50 Riot Blade 280.
25:00 Royal Authority 380.
27:50 Fast Blade 200.
30:00 Riot Blade 280.

30:75 Spirits Within 270.
31:50 Circle of Scorn 100 + 150 over time.
32:50 Royal Authority 380.

35:00 Fast Blade 200.
37:50 Riot Blade 280.
40:00 Royal Authority 380.
42:50 Fast Blade 200.
45:00 Riot Blade 280.
47:50 Royal Authority 380.
50:00 Fast Blade 200.
52:50 Riot Blade 280.
55:00 Royal Authority 380.
57:50 Fast Blade 200.
60:00 Riot Blade 280.

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That's 9500 on PLD over 60 seconds and 9650 on GNB over 60 seconds.

To be honest, I included something inside of their buffs that wouldn't have fit without skill speed as well, so it wasn't a perfect calculation. But with only a 150 potency difference, there isn't much difference between the two tanks over 60 seconds at level 60.

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The 60 second parse isn't long enough for results you need to do closer to 5 min.

But, for reference,
in Paladin-60s combo, they lost 20 potency from riot blade, and 40 potency from royal authority, and the duration of fight or flight was reduced by 5 seconds. Considering paladin wasn't a damage powerhouse to begin with, that took it very low.
That's why I said if they lower the level of Divine Might and Holy Spirit it would balance out.

You're also comparing a 'burst'. But these nerfs affect ability to kill trash mobs, adds, etc. It was a needless low-level nerf and to pretend the problem doesn't exist is willful ignorance.

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Originally Posted by Nanne

Weird because shortly after the patch I watched a PotD stream where the streamer soloed all the way till 200 with the changed PLD :p

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This is a typical problem with the modern gaming culture, though.

"If the top tier players can do it, everyone else can too, they just need to git gud" instead of developing around the majority of customers, with top tier/streamer players just getting to be exceptional heroes to be looked up to like was the case in the past days (remember when Blizzard came to their senses with Wrath of the Lich King, realizing that things like the original Naxxramas and Sunwell were silly because why put that much of your investment into content that only a tiny percentage of players will ever see, and it was perhaps the most beloved MMO expansion in history except maybe for Endwalker?).

Keep in mind that said "gitting gud" can frequently even involve loveliness like degenerate gaming, or even Those Tools. Is it really good for gaming in general to make the standard for RPGs being able to pull off competitive speedrunner tricks, or even worse, TAS being the expected playstyle (which high end raiding has already practically turned into, in particular)?

Even if we compare their base combos...

GNB has Keen Edge, Brutal Shell, Solid Barrel, Burst Strike or 150 + 240 + 320 + 380 = 1090
PLD has Fast Blade, Riot Blade, Royal Authority, Fast Blade or 200 + 280 + 380 + 200 = 1060

So even against a trash mob it's not much different. SE has always balanced the lower levels as much of the higher levels. That's part of the reason the PLD rework took some time. They have to consider the levels that most raiders don't even talk about, like level 50 and 60.

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Originally Posted by Amarande

This is a typical problem with the modern gaming culture, though.

"If the top tier players can do it, everyone else can too, they just need to git gud" instead of developing around the majority of customers, with top tier/streamer players just getting to be exceptional heroes to be looked up to like was the case in the past days (remember when Blizzard came to their senses with Wrath of the Lich King, realizing that things like the original Naxxramas and Sunwell were silly because why put that much of your investment into content that only a tiny percentage of players will ever see, and it was perhaps the most beloved MMO expansion in history except maybe for Endwalker?).

Keep in mind that said "gitting gud" can frequently even involve loveliness like degenerate gaming, or even Those Tools. Is it really good for gaming in general to make the standard for RPGs being able to pull off competitive speedrunner tricks, or even worse, TAS being the expected playstyle (which high end raiding has already practically turned into, in particular)?

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potd solo is difficult content
its git gud or don't bother

there is also way worse jobs to solo it than PLD,
so adapt or find something else to solo with.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

current PLD has already gotten a solo clear and killed behemoth in Potd

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ok but is it easier or harder than before?

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

SE has always balanced the lower levels as much of the higher levels.

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that's why PLD gets their gapcloser, Intervene at lvl74, when DRK gets theirs, Plunge at lvl 54, GNB gets theirs, Rough Divide at lvl56 and WAR gets their Onslaught at lvl62.

that's also why DRK gets Dark Missionary, their raid shield at 76, and can't use it in 2 of the 5 Ultimate fights, literally the main places it'd actually see some meaningful use. Same with WHM, they get their Cure 2 equivalent lily spell (Solace) at 52, but don't get their Medica equivalent lily spell (Rapture) til 76, and therefore can't be used in 2 Ultimates.

Speaking of Ultimates, at lvl70 SMN gets a Bahamut every min, meaning the dmg they do eclipses anything BLM could hope to do at an equivalent level. and its been almost 10 years and NIN and DRG still get their first aoe skill at lvl38 and lvl40 respectively.

They changed SAM's Tenka Goken from a cone aoe to a circle aoe, because using Fuko ( a circle) and then going into Tenka's cone felt awkward. great change....for everyone above lvl86, piss poor change for everyone below, since now they have to go cone aoe > circle aoe, which is the main reason WAR's Overpower got changed from a cone to a circle.

they don't give a damn about non current expac content outside the bare minimum lol. its an inconsistent mess, its like they don't care about their own level sync system.

The PLD rework as a whole is kind of bad.

For PotD specifically it is a straight up nerf as you kind of need Divine Might from level 64 to make up for the lowered potency from the combo which you can't get in there.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

For PotD specifically it is a straight up nerf as you kind of need Divine Might from level 64 to make up for the lowered potency from the combo which you can't get in there.

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Yet the maths I put earlier says it's pretty balanced with GNB right now, and I am using the GNB potencies for that level. If you look at the job guide, it only shows the level 90 potencies. PLD has much higher potency on its combo than GNB to make up for the lack of Burst Strike and a higher damage increase on Fight or Flight. They are very comparable tanks because they have similar models with a 60s buff window.

The only advantage that GNB really has is the Gnashing Fang combo every 30 seconds, whereas PLD can only burst to that degree every 60s, but overall there isn't any evidence to support a major difference in potency in both the short or long term.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

SE has always balanced the lower levels as much of the higher levels.

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Dancer has Double Standard Step, a 720 potency attack with a 30 second CD, in Sastasha.

I dunno. I'm mostly on the side of "If I want high damage as a tank...I'd be DRK". I pick PLD because defensive abilities and shield.

So for me it's - PLD if I want to TANK tank.

DRK - I want to burn things down as quickly as possible tank

WAR - Me and at least one other are immortal and healer can green DPS.

GNB - Eh I don't use it.

That's my mindset at least.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Dancer has Double Standard Step, a 720 potency attack with a 30 second CD, in Sastasha.

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We can compare that then, to a Bard over 30 seconds.

Dancer

Code:

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Cascade 220 + Fountain 280 = 500 damage every 5 seconds.
x4 to reach 20 seconds which is 2000 potency.
7 seconds to do Standard Step, which is 720 potency.
Remaining 3 seconds we can do Cascade for 220.
This is 2940 potency, arguably Standard Step is a potency loss compared to just spamming your combo (which would be 3000 potency) except it applies a damage buff.
Assuming this damage buff is up, the potency across all the attacks becomes 3087.

(and in an aoe situation, the potency is reduced to 25%, making it 180 or 189 buffed)

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Bard

Code:

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Venomous Bite 100 + 150 over 30 seconds
Heavy Shot 160 x3 is 480 and takes us to 10 seconds
Heavy Shot 160 x8 is 1280 and take us to 30 seconds.
But 2 of the Heavy Shots will probably be Straight Shots, which means we can remove 320 potency and replace it with 400 potency.
Not counting openers or 120s buffs, we have 2 Bloodletters in that time for a total of 220 potency.
The total potency is 2310

(and in an aoe situation, its aoe has 10 extra potency which makes up for Standard Step over time)

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So Dancer is 3087 and Bard is 2310, which is much lower than Dancer unless we include the 120s buff Raging Strikes.

But the increased single target potency on Dancer has nothing to do with Standard Step, and just raw potency differences on their combos. There isn't really a difference for aoe either.