On the issue of Limit Breaks (CC)

Prefacing this to say that this is only discussed within the realm of Crystalline Conflict. Frontlines is a whole different beast.

I do feel right now that besides a few other issues, LBs and the way they are balanced and designed are problematic. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the flavor of most of them and what they bring to each job. But some of their designs raise a lot of questions. I also want to bring up the not so obvious balance vs effort.

CC pvp right now is one of the deadliest, most lethal version of the arena pvp we have ever had, especially in crystal ranks. Without LBs into the equations, you can get punished extremely fast for bad positioning or defense, with the standard kits alone. Is this good or bad? I don't think it's bad actually. Maybe what could be adjusted is crowd control and rampant or too long hardstuns (especially miracle, you can go to hell), but that's another topic.

But on top of this you suddenly add LBs that are literally monster skills for some of them, and my biggest problem lies with the single target LBs:

1) They are not always the most game turning LBs, especially the ones that only focus on a single kill and don't snowball. For instance, party wide LBs like SMN (the easiest party wide nuke to use), BLM, DRG, WHM, but also PLD, AST, etc, tend to have a more directly game turning impact if used at the proper time, and that also requires some skill and strategy to use effectively.

2) Single target ones may bring some serotonin to the new player using them, but it just feels awful and discouraging when on the other end of them, be it for new players or veterans.

3) Most of them single target ones have counters, like barriers, mitigation, etc, but the effort required to deploy those counters is disproportionate and sometimes completely counter productive to your own damage and kit. Some just don't really have counters in certain cases.

-> In short, it's a problem of balance versus effort: single damage LBs aren't always the most game turning (unless you get a stupid streak of kills from Seiton or Zantetsuken, more on that later), but they're often the ones that feel the worst to play against. On top of it, they're tuned in a way that their deployment requires 10 times less effort than actually countering them or protecting against them. Some jobs don't even have the luxury to actually protect themselves against them.

I do believe that their design philosophy is flawed and could probably benefit from a rework for those reasons alone.

Seiton, the elephant in the room

On its own Seiton has a lot of problems. It's not like dropping somebody to half HP and lower is exactly hard and you at least secure a free kill and don't waste the LB. It's just one of those "Guess I die" kinds of LB. On top of it it benefits from an absolutely insane range.

The icing on the cake is that this single target LB can actually turn into truly game changing when you get the opportunity of getting chain kills to wipe a full team, which I do believe was the original intent behind the skillplay of Seiton.

But this is just... too much, I feel.

Meteodrive, or screw you ranged players

Very fast to charge, doesn't care about guard, and you can essentially press two buttons (Enlightenment and Meteodrive), and add a riddle of fire just before to extend the range of potential targets, and you'll kill most ranged jobs unless they have one form of mitigation or another up, and even then, they'll be so low HP, and stunned for the whole duration of the LB on top of it, that it's pretty much "I guess I die" as well. If they don't, they'll be cleaned up most of the time after anyway. This LB is also especially egregious when it just allows a monk to completely shut down a high damage dealer like BLM or SMN for the entirety of a game: I am not speaking about a MNK harassing constantly (if your team is not full of tools, they'll deal with it), but a MNK just showing up when you start your LB, popping LB and instakill you, and going away.

Not only that, but you can also use it against bigger targets as well if you combine it with phantom rush and stun. It requires a bit more skill however, but yeah. On top of it, people are rarely at full HP at all times during a game. Also benefits from an insane range, which doesnt require to gap close to the target after enlightenment, unlike phantom rush.

Marksman Spite

I find this one less problematic overall, but it's possible that I am biased, and in any case it can still fall into the category of "feels bad".

So, unlike the others, securing kills with this one isn't always a guarantee, especially if you use the "silent" variants of it, which is without wildfire (so a variant of Drill/LB or Anchor/LB). The Drill/LB variant can be dealt with if you spamm recuperate most of the time, but it still very often results in a kill on a lot of ranged jobs due to the sheer 56k damage alone. If they don't die, they will end so low HP that they'll get cleaned up a lot of the time. The Anchor variant deals a bit less, but stuns, which makes the use of recuperate cumbersome. It will kill a lot of jobs not full HP, and in both cases, it's literally a two button LB to use (but is countered by guard, but good luck guarding against an instant hit unless you mind game them).

The WF variants are harder to pull against attentive players, especially at higher ranks, because they can either guard at the correct time, or LOS when hearing/noticing the wildfire debuff. But they will delete almost any job out of existence unless they have serious mitigation going on.

So on this one, I would say that the counters are many and easier to pull in terms of effort, but it's still kinda... debatable.

Zantetsuken, just stop AoEing you monkey

One of the most noob friendly LBs for sure. Fortunately it has a very slow charge time, and sees some counters and baits, notably in the form of shields. That being, said, while barriers aren't really the hardest in terms of effort to pull, it also depends of the job you use (BLM needs to use Burst for it, and you use Burst for damage application, so holding it actually hurts a lot). Some jobs, actually, don't even have an proper answer to it (no barrier, or just pure mitigation).

Some jobs can also obviously avoid hitting the SAM when their LB is up, which is totally legit. Some however (DRG, DNC, BLM, SMN, etc), I really question, unless you want to just sit afk and deal no damage waiting for the SAM to be willing to pop their LB, thank you very much Mr SAM. Most of the time you just end up crossing your fingers for somebody in your team being able to bait the thing with a barrier, or for somebody to eat the bullet (guess which happens in 99% of the games).

On top of it, the LB does as much damage as the initial summon of Bahamut to everybody it hits (fortunately on a smaller AoE). Like for MCH, I don't feel that the LB is especially egregious like Seiton or Meteodrive, but it still has some jank/screw-you design choices behind.

I was also thinking, how do one address this, if we consider it even needs to be addressed? If you rebalance the effort of the LB versus the effort of countering it, you by definition nerf the overall effectiveness of the LB and will suddenly see it dramatically fail a lot more than it currently does. Those single target LBs arent generally the most game changing (even if they can), which would nerf their respective jobs into the ground.

Besides having obvious issues like some jobs being totally defenseless against them or unable to properly cope with them in a realistic fashion, maybe the problem is that they need to just be reworked deeply, or completely. Or maybe the fact that they hard counter so much is there to encourage people to hard counter pretty hardcore and make the life miserable of some other jobs at all times.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Valence

Zantetsuken, just stop AoEing you monkey

One of the most noob friendly LBs for sure. Fortunately it has a very slow charge time, and sees some counters and baits, notably in the form of shields. That being, said, while barriers aren't really the hardest in terms of effort to pull, it also depends of the job you use (BLM needs to use Burst for it, and you use Burst for damage application, so holding it actually hurts a lot). Some jobs, actually, don't even have an proper answer to it (no barrier, or just pure mitigation).

Some jobs can also obviously avoid hitting the SAM when their LB is up, which is totally legit. Some however (DRG, DNC, BLM, SMN, etc), I really question, unless you want to just sit afk and deal no damage waiting for the SAM to be willing to pop their LB, thank you very much Mr SAM. Most of the time you just end up crossing your fingers for somebody in your team being able to bait the thing with a barrier, or for somebody to eat the bullet (guess which happens in 99% of the games).

On top of it, the LB does as much damage as the initial summon of Bahamut to everybody it hits (fortunately on a smaller AoE). Like for MCH, I don't feel that the LB is especially egregious like Seiton or Meteodrive, but it still has some jank/screw-you design choices behind.

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So they didn't bother fixing the fact that an AoE from a BLM or anyone else can destroy you when SAM uses their LB
while you're also miles away from the guy. What a joke lmfao. I remember when it happened to me.
https://media.tenor.com/ld5xhAIKs1IAAAAC/whaaat-uhh.gif

My only issue is one shots, LB's that go through guard and general charge time for certain LB's (WHM LB does way too much for how fast it charges.)

Outside of that? The large majority of LB's in pvp are perfectly fine. The problem is people just don't pay attention like when a DRK LB's and people just see him low on HP and waste CD's on him. Like stop attacking him lol. Stun him and move on to someone else till his buff wears off then kill him.

I'm definitely not complaining about a lot of LBs, including DRK's. Actually I'm not complaining really, just raising some questions on how some single target LBs fare, about their design in essence, and how some jobs are... inedequate at dealing with some of them.

Seiton definitely needs a rework of some kind despite having the same weakness of Meteodrive. Not only it's unfun for enemies, but it's not rare to get fucked by server ticks and missing a kill on someone who clearly was below 50%. Attentive players can walk in the middle of their team if they know they're going to get screwed by a NIN LB and the party can capitalize on the gapclose and animation lock. But realistically with a 2.5 GCD it's not something that happens consistently and NIN has tools to get out of that situation anyway. I think something fun would be reworking Seiton into giving you 2 or 3 charges of some buff that lets you use Assassinate outside of Shukuchi. Very strong but still wouldn't be as busted as Seiton is currently, and it'd also force NINs to get more in melee range. Other than that NIN is perfectly fine please stop needlessly nerfing everything but the chains Jesus Christ.
I think Meteodrive is okay simply because MNK doesn't have much to offer outside of that. The strong aoe burst requires constant GCD uptime to use frequently compared to something like DRG, point pressure can be very clunky to proc, LB animation locks you so you're incredibly vulnerable during it, and you can still survive it as a squishy if the MNK stuns before Enlightenment (which they do all the time in Diamond and lower and a fair bit in Crystal I've noticed). It's just that most likely you'll get cleaned up right after, though. 75s Meteodrive feels fine I think. Though I wouldn't mind if they nerfed it further or just reworked it and buffed RoE in some way, so instead of being a one-shot meme job it becomes a countertank. I feel like that would be much more fun to play.
Spite is fine.
Zantetsuken definitely needs to go though. Absolutely needs a rework. Even in a perfect hypothetical scenario where the enemies NEVER EVER hit you while Chiten is up, that in itself is absolutely insane value. A 5s invulnerability every 30 seconds. That's insane uptime. Not only that, but like you said aoe heavy jobs just have to sit it out and spam their 111 filler button until Chiten goes off. And realistically that never happens because someone is just bound to slip because no one can play perfectly all the time, so it's just an incredibly high chance of getting one or more kills. Shields can be wonky because due to server ticks you have to apply them preventively most of the time and not actively if you see Kuzushi on you, since the SAM LB snapshots immediately. Rework Zantetsuken, turn Chiten into an actual mitigation button.

As annoying as some of the LBs are, I still think the one that needs a rework the most is Bard LB. They increased the range and removed the LoS making it less clunky but didn't fix any fundamental problems with it.

They removed LB cards from AST for a reason, yet the main gimmick of BRD is LB regen on LONG cooldown with lots of conditions.

Bard LB still has long animation lock, dependant on teammates being alive and staying alive, loses a lot of value if teammates have full LBs and are holding onto them. It is incredibly bad design as a snowball-y LB with over time effect that relies mostly on your teammates, whereas most other LBs give basically instant advantage. Not to mention the really long recharge time.

They should just bin the LB charge and make it either mass other buff with shorter CD or bake it more into BRDs kit with stuff like removing the range penalty or increasing max range etc.

Yes Bard LB is often forgotten and pretty underwhelming in spite of having a lot of potential to offer. The LB charge for everybody, the 10% buffs to party, and the mobility. It should in theory be a nice package, but it doesn't hold in its current state for what it is.

1) Charge time is way too damn long for what it does
2) 10% party damage only? That's literally what Apex and Blast Arrow give on a constant basis.. Compare it to Celestial River that grants a whooping 30% (which is nuts combined to the 30% mitigation), that also charges faster... I do wonder which LB is the most game changing here? In theory being able to bring additional party damage buff to what the job already gives to the party on a diffuse manner is good (frontliner buffs from apex/blast), but 10% is just outright not cutting it. They could easily buff this to at least 20-30% and I'd still take Celestial River over it. And yes, I know Celestial has a falloff and Final Fantasia lasts for a whooping 30s, but bursts are just better sorry.
3) The LB regen to party is an interesting idea but as you say it's crippled by deaths. If your team is being overwhelmed and struggling, this LB is almost rendered useless, both from the regen and the damage bonus that half will miss due to being dead. They could for instance give the full LB worth of regen at once to address this a little, or under very fast ticks.
4) Extend the mobility buff to everybody, not that it's gonna be game breaking anyway. Imagine the combos with Skyshatter, it could promote teamplay.
5) It suffers from a similar issue that BLM has (but BLM is totally fine as a job lol): the first segment of the game where you're waiting for your LB to charge, you're kinda underwhelming and need to wait for the full LB charge, which in the case of BLM is 60s. Once you get it, you get 30s worth of LB time, which means that you'll only need to wait 30s for the next LB realistically. Where it hurts is really only the beginning where you need to wait the full 60s. For Final Fantasia it's very similar because you basically wait for 120s (the longest LBs to fill in the game are 120), so a game is already half over by then on average. Once you have used it, you only need 90s until the next one (still way too long), but you get the idea.


Honestly bring it down to 60s without any other buffs and we're already talking. Just getting the Frontliner 10% party buff (more or less) constantly, and having 10% on top of it half the time for 30s, I'd take it already tbh