Hot take

Bring stat weights back into pvp and pve abilities back into pvp so we can encourage people to get better AND have fun.

People have trouble pressing the glowing buttons in the correct order after 10 years so I don't see how that would encourage them to get better.

As long as the XP rewards remains it's not going to change much. Rather, people would possibly be upset by that change for making the game harder.

Crystal Conflict could work. However, there are already 3 map that has damaging mechanics. It would be overkill.

Frontlines? Hard no. Imagine having a heavy debuff as a range and having to try and run away from a team of melees.

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Originally Posted by Mistress_Irika

As long as the XP rewards remains it's not going to change much. Rather, people would possibly be upset by that change for making the game harder.

Crystal Conflict could work. However, there are already 3 map that has damaging mechanics. It would be overkill.

Frontlines? Hard no. Imagine having a heavy debuff as a range and having to try and run away from a team of melees.

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not if you had good gear and a high amount of conviction stat :)

So that it generates even more gap between noob gear newcomers and BIS veterans?

Absolutely not...

HW was when pvp was the most fun to me. But almost everyone would disagree lol

I think PvP could do with 2 or 3 more abilities to use, maybe some that involve defensives to offer some survivability. This is mostly from a CC perspective, since having more defensives in Frontlines would be abhorant, but just for a general gameplay perspective it would be nice without being incredibly bloated.

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Originally Posted by Bissonnettzi

HW was when pvp was the most fun to me. But almost everyone would disagree lol

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because it would upset the status quo.

PvP during HW was awful.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

PvP during HW was awful.

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to you maybe.

I have played MMORPGs with gear-based arena-PvP, believe me it is frustrating as a newcomer if someone who is already better at the game for playing longer also gets more firepower and survivability from having grinded gear/levels.

HOWEVER, while there were generally "best picks", I did enjoy the pre 5.1 Selectable Traits option. Could pick three and were like this:

+5% maxHP
+3% damage dealt
-3% damage taken
+5% faster GCD
+25% MP regen
+50% TP regen
-25% cooldown on additional actions

On the matter of PvE skills, I'm half-half. The Stormblood PvP revision to split PvE from PvP kits entirely happened for a reason, HOWEVER I'd be on board with a kit expansion so every job sits on a comfortable 16 buttons (1x Cross Hotbar for controller), which would make space for Fetter Ward and three new job actions.

There are some things from PvE I'd love to see implemented in a PvP-fitting way, but that is for another thread-post.

I really hope they expand the kits a bit, some Jobs feel a bit more complete than others right now. Doing so probably requires some max hp or potency adjustments though.

As for PvP stat gear, I think it should be reserved for another mode or implemented into the larger ones and not CC if it ever happens.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

I have played MMORPGs with gear-based arena-PvP, believe me it is frustrating as a newcomer if someone who is already better at the game for playing longer also gets more firepower and survivability from having grinded gear/levels.

HOWEVER, while there were generally "best picks", I did enjoy the pre 5.1 Selectable Traits option. Could pick three and were like this:

+5% maxHP
+3% damage dealt
-3% damage taken
+5% faster GCD
+25% MP regen
+50% TP regen
-25% cooldown on additional actions

On the matter of PvE skills, I'm half-half. The Stormblood PvP revision to split PvE from PvP kits entirely happened for a reason, HOWEVER I'd be on board with a kit expansion so every job sits on a comfortable 16 buttons (1x Cross Hotbar for controller), which would make space for Fetter Ward and three new job actions.

There are some things from PvE I'd love to see implemented in a PvP-fitting way, but that is for another thread-post.

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People already complain about skill gaps and lopsided games and some of you want even more buttons? That's an interesting take for sure.

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Originally Posted by Valence

People already complain about skill gaps and lopsided games and some of you want even more buttons? That's an interesting take for sure.

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Well, it's not like less buttons are going to solve those things. At least with more buttons, people who can't be bothered to figure how to PVP can give themselves the excuse that there are soooo many buttons to learn.

I, for one, would love to see a variable suite of abilities for all jobs, with a hard limit on how many can be active at a time. E.G., give us a hard limit of 6, but give us 12 job-specific abilities to choose from. Guard, Purify, and Recuperate stay as general abilities that are available for all jobs at any time.
That way, we see more variation and more builds and, although there will certainly be a meta that develops, it's likely that players will start to find counterplay to those metas if the abilities are diverse enough.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

I have played MMORPGs with gear-based arena-PvP, believe me it is frustrating as a newcomer if someone who is already better at the game for playing longer also gets more firepower and survivability from having grinded gear/levels.

HOWEVER, while there were generally "best picks", I did enjoy the pre 5.1 Selectable Traits option. Could pick three and were like this:

+5% maxHP
+3% damage dealt
-3% damage taken
+5% faster GCD
+25% MP regen
+50% TP regen
-25% cooldown on additional actions

On the matter of PvE skills, I'm half-half. The Stormblood PvP revision to split PvE from PvP kits entirely happened for a reason, HOWEVER I'd be on board with a kit expansion so every job sits on a comfortable 16 buttons (1x Cross Hotbar for controller), which would make space for Fetter Ward and three new job actions.

There are some things from PvE I'd love to see implemented in a PvP-fitting way, but that is for another thread-post.

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It should have stayed it's standard calculations like this:

FFXIV PvP Changes and Suggestions:
Damage Calculations: (Bold: Will be Calculated for PvP)

PHYSICAL DAMAGE TAKEN
PDT1 = ⌊ Raw Damage × ( 100 - f(DEF) ) ⌋ /100 ⌋
PDT2 = ⌊ PDT1 × ( 2000 - f(TNC) ) ⌋ /1000 ⌋
PDT3 = ⌊ PDT2 × ( 100 - f(BLK) ) ⌋ /100 ⌋
PDT = ⌊ PDT3 × rand[95,105] ⌋ /100 ⌋ × ( 1 - buff_1 ) ⌋ × ( 1 - buff_2 ) ⌋
MAGICAL DAMAGE TAKEN
MDT1 = ⌊ Raw Damage × ( 100 - f(MDEF) ) ⌋ /100 ⌋
MDT2 = ⌊ MDT1 × ( 2000 - f(TNC) ) ⌋ /1000 ⌋
MDT3 = ⌊ MDT2 × ( 100 - f(BLK) ) ⌋ /100 ⌋
MDT = ⌊ MDT3 × rand[95,105] ⌋ /100 ⌋ × ( 1 - buff_1 ) ⌋ × ( 1 - buff_2 ) ⌋
HEALING
DIRECT HEALS
H1 = ⌊ Potency × f(HMP) × f(DET) ⌋ /100 ⌋ /1000 ⌋
H2 = ⌊ H1 × f(TNC) ⌋ /1000 ⌋ × f(WD) ⌋ /100 ⌋ × Trait ⌋ /100 ⌋
H3 = ⌊ H2 × CRIT? ⌋ /1000 ⌋
H = ⌊ H3 × rand[97,103] ⌋ /100 ⌋ × buff_1 ⌋ × buff_2 ⌋
The Direct Heals formula looks similar to Direct Damage with f(HMP) substituting for f(ATK) and DH? removed. Furthermore, the randomisation range is reduced from +/-5% to +/-3%.
Tenacity only affects outgoing heals from tanks; it does not affect incoming heals on tanks.
HEALING-OVER-TIME
H1 = ⌊ Potency × f(HMP) × f(DET) ⌋ /100 ⌋ /1000 ⌋
H2 = ⌊ H1 × f(TNC) ⌋ /1000 ⌋ × f(SPD) ⌋ /1000 ⌋× f(WD) ⌋ /100 ⌋ × Trait ⌋ /100 ⌋
H3 = ⌊ H2 × rand[97,103] ⌋ /100 ⌋
H = ⌊ H3 × CRIT? ⌋ /1000 ⌋ × buff_1 ⌋ × buff_2 ⌋

Source: https://www.akhmorning.com/allagan-s...ling-over-time

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Originally Posted by Valence

People already complain about skill gaps and lopsided games and some of you want even more buttons? That's an interesting take for sure.

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Skill gaps will always be a thing and how wide they are will depend on the individual to figure out how far they want to take it. Doesn't matter if 12 or 16 buttons.

That aside, who said the new skills aren't designed to give lower end players some chances? Fetter Ward quite literally lets you protect yourself from CC while still using your skills. Other defensives, utilities or mechanics could be introduced that slow down time to kill, giving more agency and options to players of all skill levels against obnoxious amounts of CC and damage.

This doesn't even remotely counter my point. The fact that skill gaps will always be a thing doesn't mean that increasing the amount of actions and make the kits more complex will not change anything. It will increase complexity, therefore difficulty, and therefore skill gaps. This is not even debatable.

Feather Ward had always been a skill reliant ability that directly put apart new players and veterans in old versions of pvp. It was NOT a new player friendly ability, since the people that made the most of it and understood how to use it and when were skilled players, and they used it fully to get away when they needed it, where new players didn't use it or just didn't even pick it when it was an optional skill, because they either didn't see the use or couldn't use it because too skill intensive.

Really, any skill of the sort, that requires a good timing of application will get abused by experts and badly used or not used at all by the average doe. I'm not saying I'm against them, since we already have a certain amount (especially on melee jobs for survivability), but they really shine in the hands of good players.

( and what I also honestly fear is that it's going to be even harder to actually even punish the top players that show up with melee jobs and oneshot your backline in all impunity, just pop feather ward, meteodrive somebody out of the sky, gtfo )

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Originally Posted by Valence

This doesn't even remotely counter my point. The fact that skill gaps will always be a thing doesn't mean that increasing the amount of actions and make the kits more complex will not change anything. It will increase complexity, therefore difficulty, and therefore skill gaps. This is not even debatable.

Feather Ward had always been a skill reliant ability that directly put apart new players and veterans in old versions of pvp. It was NOT a new player friendly ability, since the people that made the most of it and understood how to use it and when were skilled players, and they used it fully to get away when they needed it, where new players didn't use it or just didn't even pick it when it was an optional skill, because they either didn't see the use or couldn't use it because too skill intensive.

Really, any skill of the sort, that requires a good timing of application will get abused by experts and badly used or not used at all by the average doe. I'm not saying I'm against them, since we already have a certain amount (especially on melee jobs for survivability), but they really shine in the hands of good players.

( and what I also honestly fear is that it's going to be even harder to actually even punish the top players that show up with melee jobs and oneshot your backline in all impunity, just pop feather ward, meteodrive somebody out of the sky, gtfo )

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I need to apologize if I didn't make it clear - I didn't intend to counter your skill gap argument at all, quite the opposite; I honestly think it is fine that skill gaps exist and it isn't the dev's job to keep adjusting skillgaps and more OUR job to improve. Narrowing a skill gap isn't necessarily a good thing, it simply shortens the bridge between low-end and high-end, which might make "am I actually improving" feel more binary-state rather than a graded experience in some aspects. Widening it I agree might make the improvement take longer and expand extremes a bit, but won't be a "forever" state.

You are correct stating that Fetter Ward has been an ability that depends on timing, something high skill players have figured out a lot more than the average or new player to make more value out of it.

However the reason I advocate Fetter Ward still is that it would give options to aggressively engage safely without straight up jumping into a hot pot of CCs the moment you try anything. This is especially egregious at the start of rounds if you have anyone who needs to engage in melee distance while the enemy runs something like [PLD, WAR, WHM, BRD, RDM], two of which being rather popular (WHM, BRD). Being able to safely engage is a tool being great for everyone on the skill spectrum. Though rather than making it an "additional action" I'd make it a baseline action along with Guard and Purify. Selectable actions have always been a topic for debate and I think I played enough of The Feast to know that it wasn't a good system.

You also mentioned something like Meteo Drive bursts, I agree - under settings with Fetter Ward being an action again Meteo Drive and similar (Seiton Tenchou) would be hell in their current state. Jobs with insane burst value would need some form of counterplay against them or have their kits re-evaluated. A MNK doing solo 48000 dmg burst against someone that can only be stopped by something like Cover is just not healthy. Then again LBs like Meteo Drive, Seiton Tenchou and sometimes Zantetsuken have always been controversial, Fetter Ward or not. There is a good chance these might change regardless.

As for other actions - as I mentioned, if we were to go back to a baseline 16-button PvP (rather than 12) I'd suggest defensive or utility actions for most jobs and only rarely additional offensive actions (ex: Holy Spirit on PLD). Just like Fetter Ward, timing ofc might be impactful and tends to be more abused by high skill players but let's be real, ANY button existing is being better utilised by better players.

TL;DR:
- Skillgaps are fine and it is up to the individual to improve rather than on the dev to minimise skillgaps.
- I think more personal agency is important and having options against an aggressive onslaught of damage and CC would be beneficial.
- Along with this, certain skills would need to be re-evaluated or reworked.

Feel free to disagree with everything btw, I don't mind. I simply have a different viewpoint of PvP than others.

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Originally Posted by Valence

This doesn't even remotely counter my point. The fact that skill gaps will always be a thing doesn't mean that increasing the amount of actions and make the kits more complex will not change anything. It will increase complexity, therefore difficulty, and therefore skill gaps. This is not even debatable.

Feather Ward had always been a skill reliant ability that directly put apart new players and veterans in old versions of pvp. It was NOT a new player friendly ability, since the people that made the most of it and understood how to use it and when were skilled players, and they used it fully to get away when they needed it, where new players didn't use it or just didn't even pick it when it was an optional skill, because they either didn't see the use or couldn't use it because too skill intensive.

Really, any skill of the sort, that requires a good timing of application will get abused by experts and badly used or not used at all by the average doe. I'm not saying I'm against them, since we already have a certain amount (especially on melee jobs for survivability), but they really shine in the hands of good players.

( and what I also honestly fear is that it's going to be even harder to actually even punish the top players that show up with melee jobs and oneshot your backline in all impunity, just pop feather ward, meteodrive somebody out of the sky, gtfo )

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No matter where you go there will always be that group of people that just suck at the game, really instead of changing pvp tword casual players they should just let us have HW pvp back and let everybody crush eachother, let the skilled players do their thing and if people cant adjust to it thats a them problem.

It always just comes down to the flip of the coin.

I don't disagree with the reasoning, but right now the only reason that makes me be strongly against any feather ward (which you already have when cleansing something with purify tbh, so that would double it to 10s of CC invuln, which is insane), is that it would make melees even more broken than they already are. Have you already gotten one of those funky matchmaking games where one team is full ranged dps vs a more normal team comp? My problem with feather ward isn't even some of the stupid LBs, it's just how strong melees are at a top level, period. It may not be the case in lower leagues, but at least on my DC, they're absolutely obnoxious, and not just for some controversial LBs.

I do feel that the opener could play better in the mode, but someone having to bit the bullet, guard, gain some time and waste enemy CC and first eager bursts into it, then going away with almost full HP remaining, purify if required (with the added 5s CC invuln from the cleanse), is hardly a big problem. Just elixir once you're out, and come back in.


edit because somebody ninja posted in between: I was not replying to the post above mine.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I don't disagree with the reasoning, but right now the only reason that makes me be strongly against any feather ward (which you already have when cleansing something with purify tbh, so that would double it to 10s of CC invuln, which is insane), is that it would make melees even more broken than they already are. Have you already gotten one of those funky matchmaking games where one team is full ranged dps vs a more normal team comp? My problem with feather ward isn't even some of the stupid LBs, it's just how strong melees are at a top level, period. It may not be the case in lower leagues, but at least on my DC, they're absolutely obnoxious, and not just for some controversial LBs.

I do feel that the opener could play better in the mode, but someone having to bit the bullet, guard, gain some time and waste enemy CC and first eager bursts into it, then going away with almost full HP remaining, purify if required (with the added 5s CC invuln from the cleanse), is hardly a big problem. Just elixir once you're out, and come back in.


edit because somebody ninja posted in between: I was not replying to the post above mine.

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honestly i agree 100%, the mode literally is just ***who can waste whos CC first***

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Originally Posted by Towa-Musa

No matter where you go there will always be that group of people that just suck at the game, really instead of changing pvp tword casual players they should just let us have HW pvp back and let everybody crush eachother, let the skilled players do their thing and if people cant adjust to it thats a them problem.

It always just comes down to the flip of the coin.

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Coming from someone that got hard stuck in lower ranks in CC lol. Oh but wait, they have that easily farmed FL achievement so clearly they are good at the game *eye roll* lmao.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

im terrible at listening to somebody holding a opinion that is counter to mine so imma use something that i won via chance to dismiss their opinion. lmao.

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Wow, cool. anyway.