At this point having both stormbite and caustic bite feels kind of pointless. It’s not like DoTs do anything for BRD anymore, no more effect on songs, no more effect on bloodletter, no more effect on sidewinder.
Is it time to just remove stormbite and iron jaws and just have the one DoT (increasing the potency accordingly)? If they need skills to fill those levels they can add an AoE version for sidewinder and empyreal arrow or even repurpose stormbite as an AoE DoT.
Should BRD lose one of the DoTs?
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01-23-2023, 08:00 AMCabalabobShould BRD lose one of the DoTs?
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01-23-2023, 08:37 AMRenathras
DoTs are in a weird place right now. I personally have always hated them, especially if they were just "slap on, refresh" (like...every last Healer's right now...) with no kit interactions, and it's one thing I dislike about BRD, a Job I'd probably otherwise like...
...but that said, we have enough homogenization, and if nothing else BRD at least hasn't been smacked with the homogenization stick. Much as I might personally dislike them, I think for the game, it's good for BRD to have its unique mechanic and identity there, and I'd wager a lot of BRD mains agree. It's like how old PLD was a clunky mess and old SMN before was even MORE of a clunky mess, but they had adherents who loved them and it would probably have been better to add new SMN as a new Job and PLD...to just not do the 2 min meta that forced the change in the first place.
I dunno, maybe a bunch of BRD mains will come in here and say they would love to be rid of all the DoTs, too, but... -
01-23-2023, 12:05 PMVentVanitasUnless you plan to suggest to replace it with something, no. I would rather just delete Iron Jaws on its own and return DoT procs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabalabob
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01-23-2023, 12:41 PMConnor
As above poster I’d said I’d be more than happy for them to remove the DoTs if they replaced them with something else to manage upkeep of (*cough* actively used buffs *cough*).
I think just deleting one would just make Bard feel even worse though - it’s already very simplistic and you’re mostly just hammering Burst Shot 80% of the time, so with one DoT it would feel even less engaging. Then again, it’s not like pressing Iron Jaws every 45 seconds is the pinnacle of depth either. I think if they keep them they should have them interact with songs in a different way from before and just keep procs fully randomised and unconditional. Like a X% chance of granting an additional buff effect for each song, or X% chance to lower current song recast for each DoT. Critical based interactions are out the window since that was problematic lol -
01-23-2023, 01:27 PMForteNightshadeThe sad reality is they completely killed that unique mechanic in Endwalker. Whereas in prior iteration, DoT were a core component of Bard's actual kit, they now function exactly like healer DoTs. You set and refresh them with Iron Jaws at 3-6 seconds. No procs, no interaction with Sidewinder and no DoTing multiple targets. Not only that but the increased duration means you're pressing them even less. Bard is wholly unpopular right now due in no small part how every little unique gameplay element it had was squeezed out. You're a Burst Shot spammer and almost nothing else. The hilarious irony is despite them likely doing this in the name of accessibility, Bard remains the single most punishing job to make any sort of mistake on. It's incredibly rigid and if you misalign buffs or god forbid die, you're completely boned for the entire fight going forward.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
While Summoner may have been lobotomized, Bard is just a shell of itself; playing the same way but with no real identity or quirk. Getting rid of the DoTs wouldn't even matter any longer because they do nothing. -
01-23-2023, 02:29 PMRongway
I don't BRD much but really I'd rather see them double down on the DoTs instead of removing them. In particular, I would add a DoT aura to each song such that all enemies within 15y take damage every tick for as long as the bard is singing. I'd also add an oGCD action that does some instant damage on its own but also ends Caustic Bite and Stormbite on the target to do their remaining damage immediately so that DoTs might be worth casting even when a target is about to die or go invulnerable.
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01-23-2023, 06:49 PMAmenaraWhen I saw SE removing the DoT interaction with the Bard kit and the removal of DoTs on Summoner my first thought was they are priming the game for the complete removal of DoTs. I honestly think Bard will have them removed in the next expansion.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
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01-23-2023, 07:20 PMValence
As a BRD player I actually miss the dot interaction with repertoire and procs, but I also do feel that the change was necessary because the system was just not designed for it to work properly. Between massive proc overcaps, insane weaving issues and clipping (especially on BL but not only), and even today the job can have some clipping problems especially at different speeds than BIS.
I'd have thought however that raising the amount of charges to massive amounts could have alleviated the problem a little, but let's be honest, it still suffers from clipping all the same, and this doesnt solve the problem with Pitch Perfect (which has the same issue than the monk chakras).
Now I also know that they removed this specifically because bard always got out of control in the late stages of the post expansion endgame especially in the last tier where crit and itemization just made it go out of hand. Personally I'd think this would be less of a problem if they actually made this a thing for a lot of jobs to make substats less... vapid and useless, but well. There is pros and cons.
Anyway, in their current state, the bard dots are pretty useless and don't serve any purpose anymore but the snapshot with raging strikes (which is like any job with dots, you snapshot under buffs). On top of it they most of the time don't even continue dealing damage to bosses that are gone, which could help the job during downtime... but nope I guess. My real issue with dot tbh is the lack of proper UI and tools to keep track of them. -
01-23-2023, 11:34 PMbaklava151
I'd rather see them restore the DoT interactivity it had before and give them their own version of Bane, but I think it's likely they just double down and end up removing one or both DoTs in 7.0 which would be pretty sad to see.
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01-24-2023, 06:08 AMZarkovitch
Dots are trash if there no purpose on the rotation. The game will be more intaractive and dots will be plague of existance. We already see with hardest content it's starting to be little bit of griefing level. Dots should vanish if there no use to it. Anyway it's overtime fluff damage.
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01-24-2023, 12:32 PMForteNightshadeI'll be shocked if they aren't removed. The only thing which may halt their decision is how woefully unpopular Bard has become since Shadowbringers. It went from the most popular DPS in Savage to the least played. Yes, even Black Mage has overtaken it which says a LOT about how incredibly unpopular the changes have been. While they may have handwaved it in Shadowbringers due to Dancer being the new shiny toy. You can't really use that excuse for what will be almost four years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amenara
7.0 will be curious on whether they course correct changes players have been extremely vocal about (two minute meta, certain job designs) or double down on them. -
01-24-2023, 07:13 PMEorzean_usernameOf course BRD popularity was going to drop in ShB — BRD was a hard meta pick in SB, because it pumped into the Crit Buff meta, synergized with Piercing Debuff from Dragoon, provided higher overall RDPS than Hypercharge with Crit Buff + Foe + BV, no one cared about Dismantle, the MCH rotation required a PhD in Machonomics to execute correctly, and BRD scaled grotesquely with Crit stat and Crit buffs. SB BRD was one of the strongest PvE Jobs in the game, in addition to being completely-mobile — which MCH was not, due to needing to rely on FT channels (and psychic tick-estimating powers) every 60s, which usually lined up nicely with some hell mechanic that forced MCH to bait death to do its burst correctly.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
Jump to ShB, and Piercing Debuff is gone, Foe is gone, Crit Buff is gone, crazy BRD Crit scaling is gone, MCH is remade to be new, shiny, high-damage, and freely-mobile, and DNC has been introduced as something even newer, shinier, and more RDPS-positive, while also being completely-mobile.
Yeah, they turned Straight Shot into a proc, and crammed in the largely-pointless Soul Voice thing (because GAUGES!), but BRD overall didn't change that much in feel in ShB. The real reason that BRD lost popularity relative to its glory days is just because actual alternatives became available — MCH was considered unplayable by a lot of people in SB, and DNC didn't exist yet. Now there's 2 (3?) equally-viable "no-castbar ranged" to choose from, and BRD's damage contribution and toolkit is merely on-par, rather than obviously-superior.
If both BLM and RDM had the simplicity and mobility of current SMN, you'd probably see a spike in BLM players and a drop in SMN players — in most cases, it would likely have nothing to do with rotational simplification or dullness, and everything to do with whether people feel like they have accessible alternatives. Most players simply do not care about things like gameplay complexity, or quirky things like Foe Requiem. In fact, one of the biggest actual playerbase revolts against Bard was when SE introduced difficult(?) castbar Bow Mage gameplay in HW.
If SE actually wanted to see Bard numbers rise dramatically, they could just rename it "Ranger", make the DOTs a single trivial button, return Flaming Arrow, chop out the flutes and harps and magical-girl spins and musical-note burpy-bubbles, give it chainmail AF instead of RenFest cosplay suits, give it Stealth and Tracking for flavor, and give it 6.0 Summoner-style "animal companion" attacks where you launch tigers and wolves and eagles and crap at the target.
The rotation could literally be Heavy Shot into automatic Refulgent Arrow procs and nothing else, and it would still see high participation numbers if it:
And "d" might even be optional in a lot of cases, since it hasn't really saved, for example, MNK, whereas WAR popularity is still pumping strong.
a) looked cool
b) embodied a popular fantasy aesthetically (Note: "Flute Mage with a Bow Glued On" is not this)
c) was easy and comfortable to play
d) did high total DPS
People in hyper-focused XIV discussion communities tend to think like, "Oh they took away Kaiten, my beautiful gigabrain non-homogenized skill expression, they will PAY for this, just watch the revolution break out!" And then probably 92% of the playerbase is like "oh Kaiten is gone, lol. Anyway, let's go shop for the new glamour outfit and then build a shrine to Grynewaht in my house's basement" and is perfectly-happy as long as they still see a katana slashing things on their screen when they push buttons. -
01-24-2023, 08:20 PMSeraphor
There's still a lot they could do with DoTs without disrupting the direction they're going in, which includes fewer debuffs at a time (so limited time instead of 100% upkeep) and flexible job rotations that can fit into the 2 minute burst window, so jobs aren't separated by uptime/burst capacity.
Instead of having two DoTs, it could be one DoT, with a buff to yourself that increases the potency of your one other DoT. This is functionally identical, instead of having two DoTs at say 30 and 20 potency respectively, you have a 30 potency DoT, and a buff that increases the potency of your DoT by 20. Simple and effective, reduces the number of 100% uptime debuffs.
Secondly, they could work in a skill to the 2 minute burst window that either increases the potency of DoTs further, or does what some existing skills do by dealing more damage if target is under the affect of the DoT and/or the aforementioned DoT buff. This means the DoT itself doesn't need to be particularly high potency, and it can still be the functional baseline for that jobs mechanics. Reducing sustained damage and putting more focus into bursting, while maintaining job identity.
You can 100% design a DoT class without multiple or potent DoTs, and they should do this with Bard. -
01-26-2023, 02:06 PMAmenaraWith the change to paladin I assume SE is going to double down on everything in 7.0.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
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02-01-2023, 01:16 AMMarooned_Pilot
DoTs should stay but compared to something even less used Repelling Shot is another matter. Backwards gap-closer / escapee maneuver barely has any pull in current content.
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02-01-2023, 02:04 AMConnorI totally agree that in practice movement skills like Repelling Shot makes no sense on one of the the most mobile jobs in the game lol. At the same time though I honestly enjoy being able to somehow yeet myself out of AoEs, so part of me would like to keep itQuote:
Originally Posted by Marooned_Pilot