Why Do The DoH Role Quests Require Gathering/ Buying Materials On MB Again?

In Stormblood, the DoH Class quests had the materials provided for you (similar to DoH Tribal quests), allowing you to focus on your gear and rotation, and if you mess up, just ask for more materials. Meanwhile, the DoH Role quests in ShB and EW are more like the Custom Delivery system, which wouldn't be a problem except that you can't buy the materials from a vendor like you can with Custom Deliveries, you have to either gather them or (if you have none of your DoL at a similar level) turn to the Market Board, of which the prices can get fairly high. Basically, I don't know why they changed the system.

Well, that's because it's a freaking pain to create 8 different stories for 8 DoHs' class quests every expansion. So SE decided to combine the classes into a 3 groups instead. The 3 stories can also become more associated with one another (and be associated with the theme of the expansion), rather than 8 separate unrelated stories. Location can also be centralized in one area instead of being spread over 8 different places. So in ShB and EW, they introduced the Crystarium Deliveries and Studium Deliveries which replaced the previous class quests.

Not being able to buy materials from a vendor isn't a problem anyway, right? Gathering mats to craft is what we do since ARR...

It's been quite a number of years (in the middle of Stormblood) since they nerfed crafting from "difficult" to "ultra-easy mode". Nowadays, nearly all gatherers are also crafters, because leveling crafting have become cake-easy. And because of that, "pure crafters" who buy mats to craft become difficult to survive. On the MB, you can notice that gathered raw mats are actually more expensive then most crafted mats. E.g. 1 log may sell for 200 gil, but the actual lumber which require 5 logs actually sell for only 800 gil. Barely anybody buys raw mats from the MB to craft into crafted mats for profits anymore.

Here, you're saying it's a problem to gather or buy mats for these deliveries... Well, if you really see it as a problem, then it's a problem that is associated with almost ALL crafted items EXCEPT the few you listed there in Custom Deliveries or Tribal Quests (after all, everything in your crafting log requires you to gather or buy the mats, right?). Personally, I don't find it to be a problem, since leveling gatherers have also become easier now. The game basically makes leveling everything so easy that everyone just levels everything nowadays...

By the way, we now have Trial Synthesis, so that's what we now use to test on gear and rotation.

As for the Crystarium and Studium Deliveries items, they're so easy to make that you can just randomly mash buttons anyway... Unless you're very undergeared, otherwise it's quite difficult to mess up those items. So... there's not much about rotations you can test on using those easy items anyway.

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Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino

Well, that's because it's a freaking pain to create 8 different stories for 8 DoHs' class quests every expansion. So SE decided to combine the classes into a 3 groups instead. The 3 stories can also become more associated with one another (and be associated with the theme of the expansion), rather than 8 separate unrelated stories. Location can also be centralized in one area instead of being spread over 8 different places. So in ShB and EW, they introduced the Crystarium Deliveries and Studium Deliveries which replaced the previous class quests.

Not being able to buy materials from a vendor isn't a problem anyway, right? Gathering mats to craft is what we do since ARR...

It's been quite a number of years (in the middle of Stormblood) since they nerfed crafting from "difficult" to "ultra-easy mode". Nowadays, nearly all gatherers are also crafters, because leveling crafting have become cake-easy. And because of that, "pure crafters" who buy mats to craft become difficult to survive. On the MB, you can notice that gathered raw mats are actually more expensive then most crafted mats. E.g. 1 log may sell for 200 gil, but the actual lumber which require 5 logs actually sell for only 800 gil. Barely anybody buys raw mats from the MB to craft into crafted mats for profits anymore.

Here, you're saying it's a problem to gather or buy mats for these deliveries... Well, if you really see it as a problem, then it's a problem that is associated with almost ALL crafted items EXCEPT the few you listed there in Custom Deliveries or Tribal Quests (after all, everything in your crafting log requires you to gather or buy the mats, right?). Personally, I don't find it to be a problem, since leveling gatherers have also become easier now. The game basically makes leveling everything so easy that everyone just levels everything nowadays...

By the way, we now have Trial Synthesis, so that's what we now use to test on gear and rotation.

As for the Crystarium and Studium Deliveries items, they're so easy to make that you can just randomly mash buttons anyway... Unless you're very undergeared, otherwise it's quite difficult to mess up those items. So... there's not much about rotations you can test on using those easy items anyway.

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I think you missed my point, I was wondering why they changed it from providing materials in Stormblood to make you find materials again in Shadowbringers. I mainly leveled my Crafters via Tribal Quests as well as Custom Deliveries. What I am wondering is why they don't have a vendor providing the materials like they do with Custom Deliveries.

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Originally Posted by Styrmwyda

I think you missed my point, I was wondering why they changed it from providing materials in Stormblood to make you find materials again in Shadowbringers. I mainly leveled my Crafters via Tribal Quests as well as Custom Deliveries. What I am wondering is why they don't have a vendor providing the materials like they do with Custom Deliveries.

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It's hard to say as they generally don't explain their design decisions outside of changes to the combat jobs. My assumption would be that they didn't like how the Stormblood system turned out in practice and so they went back to requiring crafters to get their own materials.

Or it could be that they received a lot of complaints from players who struggled to get HQ on the quest items due to the lack of HQ materials so they went back to the old system so HQ materials could be used by those who need them. The recipe difficulty was noticeably higher back when the content was current and before they lowered overall recipe difficulty partway through Shadowbringers (think it was 5.1) then again in Endwalker with the stat squish changes.

If you're finding the price of the materials somewhat high on the marketboard, then it sounds like you've found materials worth gathering/making and selling yourself.

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Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino

Well, that's because it's a freaking pain to create 8 different stories for 8 DoHs' class quests every expansion. So SE decided to combine the classes into a 3 groups instead.

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There's a lot of that going on. Back in ShB they also got rid of job quests and went with this role quest nonsense. Mind you, in ShB, the role quests tied into the MSQ very nicely. Also, part of their excuse was that it wouldn't make much sense for our job "mentors" in Eorzea to be in The First to give us quest objectives. That same excuse was valid for DoH/L classes.

However, in EW, they have no such excuse. Essentially, back in SB we had 55 DoH/L class quests and about 75 DoW/M job quests. That's 130 quests. Yes, it is a lot of work on their end. However, with the addition of 2 more jobs in EW, we only saw 24 role quests and 16 DoH/L quests. That's a steep drop from 130 quests (SB) and then adding two jobs and dropping the quests to just 40.

It is only a convenient excuse. SE's adds new jobs to get people subbed and buying expansions. If that requires more work on their end, they should be doing it. Instead of this role quest nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

It's hard to say as they generally don't explain their design decisions outside of changes to the combat jobs. My assumption would be that they didn't like how the Stormblood system turned out in practice and so they went back to requiring crafters to get their own materials.

Or it could be that they received a lot of complaints from players who struggled to get HQ on the quest items due to the lack of HQ materials so they went back to the old system so HQ materials could be used by those who need them. The recipe difficulty was noticeably higher back when the content was current and before they lowered overall recipe difficulty partway through Shadowbringers (think it was 5.1) then again in Endwalker with the stat squish changes.

If you're finding the price of the materials somewhat high on the marketboard, then it sounds like you've found materials worth gathering/making and selling yourself.

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One of my problems with leveling Gatherers is it seems harder to gather collectibles for Gatherers (so you can get Gathering Scrips for better gear) than it is to craft collectibles for Crafters. Especially Fisher, which is much more reactive and requires timing.

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Originally Posted by Styrmwyda

One of my problems with leveling Gatherers is it seems harder to gather collectibles for Gatherers (so you can get Gathering Scrips for better gear) than it is to craft collectibles for Crafters. Especially Fisher, which is much more reactive and requires timing.

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The answer to this, ironically, is to get better gear. Gathering collectables on MIN/BTN are significantly easier if you can hit specific GP thresholds(more gathering and perception are nice of course but its the GP that really makes collecting work). The first important one is 600 as that allows you to trigger your Scour for all 3 "collectability moves" you could potentially hit before needing to gather on a normal node. Hitting 700, 800 and 850 each also open up new options, but 600 is the first key one. Upgrade jewelry, do a bit of melding, use GP food when doing collectables... whatever method works to get there. When youre just getting started, you can also cheese the system by only doing collectables at the nodes that give you extra swings(reload nodes until you get the one you want). This gives you the ability to get an extra move(or two!) in before gathering to hit the collectability ratings you need. Later on as gear gets better, you instead prefer the extra swing nodes because you can get an extra gathering(or two!) in with the same collectability rating you achieve on all the normal nodes.

All of that, of course, was for MIN/BTN. As for fishing, i cant help you with doing collectables on FSH. All ive ever done for that class is turn on Patience 2, use the proper hooking, and try to make sure im targeting the fish in question as well as i can(ideal bait/potential surface slaps/identical casts when i hit my target/etc).

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Originally Posted by Styrmwyda

One of my problems with leveling Gatherers is it seems harder to gather collectibles for Gatherers (so you can get Gathering Scrips for better gear) than it is to craft collectibles for Crafters. Especially Fisher, which is much more reactive and requires timing.

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Welcome to Ocean Fishing!!! -- The fastest way to leveling FSH! :)
http://ffxivrealm.com/guides/novice-...e-tsukino.222/

You won't be able to use the "Holy Grail" combo until a lot later, but it is still the fastest way of leveling! Plus, you get a crap ton of white scrips and a few rewards, such as the minions and the mount!

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Originally Posted by Styrmwyda

I think you missed my point, I was wondering why they changed it from providing materials in Stormblood to make you find materials again in Shadowbringers. I mainly leveled my Crafters via Tribal Quests as well as Custom Deliveries. What I am wondering is why they don't have a vendor providing the materials like they do with Custom Deliveries.

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But Crystarium/Studium Deliveries are NOT Custom Deliveries! So they didn't "change"! They merely turned the class quests into role quests in ShB, and kept them that way in EW.
EW has its own Custom Delivery, which is Ameliance. So you DO have a Custom Delivery that you can buy mats from a vendor.
As for Tribal Quests, the Lorporrits are on their way in 6.3... may be not immediately next week, but probably in 6.35.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

There's a lot of that going on. Back in ShB they also got rid of job quests and went with this role quest nonsense. Mind you, in ShB, the role quests tied into the MSQ very nicely. Also, part of their excuse was that it wouldn't make much sense for our job "mentors" in Eorzea to be in The First to give us quest objectives. That same excuse was valid for DoH/L classes.

However, in EW, they have no such excuse. Essentially, back in SB we had 55 DoH/L class quests and about 75 DoW/M job quests. That's 130 quests. Yes, it is a lot of work on their end. However, with the addition of 2 more jobs in EW, we only saw 24 role quests and 16 DoH/L quests. That's a steep drop from 130 quests (SB) and then adding two jobs and dropping the quests to just 40.

It is only a convenient excuse. SE's adds new jobs to get people subbed and buying expansions. If that requires more work on their end, they should be doing it. Instead of this role quest nonsense.

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Partially laziness (which I don't blame... 130 quests are a lot of quests), but also partially to be consistent with the way that was set in ShB. It'd feel awkward to change back to class quests in EW after grouping them into role quests ShB.

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Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino

But Crystarium/Studium Deliveries are NOT Custom Deliveries! So they didn't "change"! They merely turned the class quests into role quests in ShB, and kept them that way in EW.
EW has its own Custom Delivery, which is Ameliance. So you DO have a Custom Delivery that you can buy mats from a vendor.
As for Tribal Quests, the Lorporrits are on their way in 6.3... may be not immediately next week, but probably in 6.35.

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I know they aren't Custom Deliveries. I was wondering why you have to gather/ buy from MB the materials when in Stormblood the class quests provided the materials for you. And since Crystarium/ Studium Deliveries are similar to Custom Deliveries in format, I was also wondering why they don't have a vendor providing the materials.

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Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino

Partially laziness (which I don't blame... 130 quests are a lot of quests), but also partially to be consistent with the way that was set in ShB. It'd feel awkward to change back to class quests in EW after grouping them into role quests ShB.

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Convenient excuse for them. That's like if I did my job the same way for 8 years and then told my boss I'm going to do 1/4th of my job and they have to continue paying me. No, I won't do work specific to the task at hand. I'll provide generic solutions only and the customer better like it.

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Originally Posted by Styrmwyda

One of my problems with leveling Gatherers is it seems harder to gather collectibles for Gatherers (so you can get Gathering Scrips for better gear) than it is to craft collectibles for Crafters. Especially Fisher, which is much more reactive and requires timing.

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Collectables are only one way to level gathering. There's Diadem and leves as well. Just going around to the various nodes and collecting an item for the first time adds up to a decent amount of XP as well.

Fishing is similar except it also has Ocean Voyages.

Leveling gathering really isn't any harder than leveling crafting. The only difference is that it does require travel to get to the node/fishing hole locations instead of being able to by a summoning bell or marketboard.

I'd also suggest using HQ gathering gear instead of the scrip gear. There's nothing wrong with the scrip gear but that's scrip you can be using to get other items and it's easy to craft your own HQ gear to use while leveling (not to mention it's extra XP for your crafting classes).

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Collectables are only one way to level gathering. There's Diadem and leves as well. Just going around to the various nodes and collecting an item for the first time adds up to a decent amount of XP as well.

Fishing is similar except it also has Ocean Voyages.

Leveling gathering really isn't any harder than leveling crafting. The only difference is that it does require travel to get to the node/fishing hole locations instead of being able to by a summoning bell or marketboard.

I'd also suggest using HQ gathering gear instead of the scrip gear. There's nothing wrong with the scrip gear but that's scrip you can be using to get other items and it's easy to craft your own HQ gear to use while leveling (not to mention it's extra XP for your crafting classes).

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I meant more that it's hard to gather collectibles to get better gear, since it is the only way to get Gatherer Scrips. I wish doing Diadem Gathering also gave you Gatherer's Scrips, since that is the main area I gather from to level.

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Originally Posted by Styrmwyda

I meant more that it's hard to gather collectibles to get better gear, since it is the only way to get Gatherer Scrips. I wish doing Diadem Gathering also gave you Gatherer's Scrips, since that is the main area I gather from to level.

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It is widely-recognized that leveling FSH in Diadem is not as fast as leveling in Ocean Fishing. However, Diadem fishing is definitely more relaxing since Ocean Fishing can be a bit intense sometimes during Spectral Currents. If you do prefer to level in Diadem, please don't forget to pop an appropriate type of Survival Manual together with food to boost EXP :)

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Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino

It is widely-recognized that leveling FSH in Diadem is not as fast as leveling in Ocean Fishing. However, Diadem fishing is definitely more relaxing since Ocean Fishing can be a bit intense sometimes during Spectral Currents. If you do prefer to level in Diadem, please don't forget to pop an appropriate type of Survival Manual together with food to boost EXP :)

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I was more referring to MIN and BTN.

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Originally Posted by Styrmwyda

I meant more that it's hard to gather collectibles to get better gear, since it is the only way to get Gatherer Scrips. I wish doing Diadem Gathering also gave you Gatherer's Scrips, since that is the main area I gather from to level.

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But that's why I brought up using HQ gear instead of going after the scrip gear. You can make that on demand as long as your crafting classes are leveled high enough for the recipe to unlock instead of having to fill your inventory with dozens of collectables worth relatively small amounts of scrip.

Until you're ready for end game crafting/gathering gear, recipe difficulty is near trivial. Just this past week I was crafting HQ lvl 81 DOH/DOL sets from all normal materials on one of my alts that was equipped with only HQ level 71 gear.

Scrip gear is never the best gear available. It's just more convenient for those who don't want to spend gil on or craft the best gear for themselves.

If you still prefer having scrip gear, get it over a couple of weeks doing Custom Deliveries. As long as your gear is up to date for the delivery item level, it's very simple to get the 600 rating you need for max reward compared to the higher ratings needed on normal collectables.

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Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino

Partially laziness (which I don't blame... 130 quests are a lot of quests), but also partially to be consistent with the way that was set in ShB. It'd feel awkward to change back to class quests in EW after grouping them into role quests ShB.

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I agree, although I agreed with their explanation as to why. They stated that the guilds have nothing left to teach us, as we have become experienced in our roles be it DoL, DoW, DoH or DoM. So now we just get quests that are about helping somebody.

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Originally Posted by Styrmwyda

I know they aren't Custom Deliveries. I was wondering why you have to gather/ buy from MB the materials when in Stormblood the class quests provided the materials for you. And since Crystarium/ Studium Deliveries are similar to Custom Deliveries in format, I was also wondering why they don't have a vendor providing the materials.

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Because SB was the outlier, not the rule? HW and ARR has you also buy materials from MB/gather yourself, and for a long time, HW Quests not only demanded HQ items, they demanded you crafted them yourself. Buying one on the MB wouldn't update the quest to recognize you had one, you had to actually make it. Crafting and Gathering are interlinked, gathering your own mats makes it more profitable to craft (not losing income to buying mats), crafting your own stuff makes it easier to gather (make new sets for gathering as you level). The whole 'there's a vendor that will just give you the mats you need, and if you bugger it up just ask for more' is really hollow imo. Doesn't feel as good when I know I can just immediately try again, as many times as I want with no limit. Can even be exploited, eg 'oh my opener of Rapid Synth didn't hit, I'll just abandon, get a new set of mats, try again'.

I think what would help is if each Crystarium/ Studium Delivery recipe only required of each ingredient, so you only needed to gather/ buy 18 (Shb)/ 6 (EW) of each ingredient in each recipe.