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Stuttering Issues
Hello! I have been dealing with stuttering for a few weeks now and after trying everything I can think of like updating drivers, reinstalling ffxiv, using an ethernet cable and more, I have no idea what is causing it.
I play ffxiv on a gaming laptop with a Nvidia Geforce RTX 2060 graphics card. These stutters happen at random times in busy areas and areas with very few people. It also happens in dungeons, raids and pvp. There also is no FPS loss while these stutters are happening and no packet loss either. It is possible to play but it is really making it difficult to enjoy playing this game with these stutters. I would love some help with this if possible!
Here is the link to a clip that shows these stutters: https://imgur.com/a/Xhkg8fs
And here is my system report:
-=-=-=-=-=-=- System Information -=-=-=-=-=-=-
SYSTEM_OS Windows 10 Home 64 bits (6.2, build 9200) (19041.vb_release.191206-1406)
SYSTEM_CPU Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-9750H CPU @ 2.60GHz (12 CPUs), ~2.6GHz
SYSTEM_CORE_NUM SYSTEM_CORE_LOGIC 12 SYSTEM_CORE_PHYSICS 6
SYSTEM_BIOS 1.07.03
SYSTEM_LANGUAGE Nederlands (Landinstelling: Nederlands)
SYSTEM_MEMORY 16187.555MB
SYSTEM_VIRTUAL_MEMORY 134217727.875MB
SYSTEM_PAGE_FILE 19131.555MB
SYSTEM_STORAGE C:\ SYSTEM_HARDDISK_DRIVE SYSTEM_TOTALDISC_SPACE 465.132GB SYSTEM_FREEDISC_SPACE 326.049GB
SYSTEM_STORAGE D:\ SYSTEM_HARDDISK_DRIVE SYSTEM_TOTALDISC_SPACE 931.512GB SYSTEM_FREEDISC_SPACE 546.616GB
SYSTEM_DIRECTX_VERSION DirectX 12
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS Intel(R) UHD Graphics 630
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_DEVICE \\.\DISPLAY1
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_CHIP Intel(R) UHD Graphics Family
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_MAKER Intel Corporation
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_VRAM 128.000 MB
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_SHARED_VRAM 8093.777 MB
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_DAC Internal
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_DISPLAY_MODE 1920 x 1080 (32 bit) (60Hz)
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_DRIVER C:\WINDOWS\System32\DriverStore\FileRepository\iigd_dch.inf_amd64_23a1c1315f01c788\igdumdim64.dll,C:\WINDOWS\System32\DriverStore\FileRepository\iigd_dch.inf_amd64_23a1c1315f01c788\igd10iumd64.dll,C:\WINDOWS\System32\DriverStore\FileRepository\iigd_dch.inf_amd64_23a1c1315f01c788\igd10iumd64.dll,C:\WINDOWS\System32\DriverStore\FileRepository\iigd_dch.inf_amd64_23a1c1315f01c788\igd12umd64.dll
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_DRIVER_VERSION 27.20.0100.9365
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_DRIVER_DATE 3/10/2021 01:00:00
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_DRIVER_LANGUAGE Engels
3.0
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_PIXEL_SHADER 3.0
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_VERTEX_TEXTURE SYSTEM_SUPPORT
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2060
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_DEVICE Unknown
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_CHIP NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2060
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_MAKER NVIDIA
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_VRAM 14061 MB
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_SHARED_VRAM SYSTEM_UNKNOWN
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_DAC Integrated RAMDAC
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_DISPLAY_MODE Unknown
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_DRIVER C:\WINDOWS\System32\DriverStore\FileRepository\nvcvi.inf_amd64_b6370d573b9c0637\nvldumdx.dll,C:\WINDOWS\System32\DriverStore\FileRepository\nvcvi.inf_amd64_b6370d573b9c0637\nvldumdx.dll,C:\WINDOWS\System32\DriverStore\FileRepository\nvcvi.inf_amd64_b6370d573b9c0637\nvldumdx.dll,C:\WINDOWS\System32\DriverStore\FileRepository\nvcvi.inf_amd64_b6370d573b9c0637\nvldumdx.dll
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_DRIVER_VERSION 31.00.0015.2802
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_DRIVER_DATE 12/22/2022 01:00:00
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_DRIVER_LANGUAGE Engels
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_PIXEL_SHADER
SYSTEM_GRAPHICS_VERTEX_TEXTURE
SYSTEM_SOUND Hoofdtelefoon (Arctis 7P+)
SYSTEM_SOUND_DEVICE_ID {64913E55-27A1-4AF7-9338-E7C6C873E7D1}
SYSTEM_SOUND_DEVICE_NAME USBAUDIO.sys
SYSTEM_SOUND_DRIVER_VERSION 10.0.19041.2251
SYSTEM_SOUND_DRIVER_LANGUAGE Engels
SYSTEM_SOUND_DRIVER_DATE 11/3/2022 01:00:00
SYSTEM_SOUND Luidsprekers (2- Wireless Controller)
SYSTEM_SOUND_DEVICE_ID {AACA3589-6309-49B0-9A2E-D19C9A33340F}
SYSTEM_SOUND_DEVICE_NAME USBAUDIO.sys
SYSTEM_SOUND_DRIVER_VERSION 10.0.19041.2251
SYSTEM_SOUND_DRIVER_LANGUAGE Engels
SYSTEM_SOUND_DRIVER_DATE 11/3/2022 01:00:00
SYSTEM_SOUND Luidsprekers (Realtek(R) Audio)
SYSTEM_SOUND_DEVICE_ID {FB34C0F4-DA01-4F47-9BDE-F15EDF349EB8}
SYSTEM_SOUND_DEVICE_NAME RTKVHD64.sys
SYSTEM_SOUND_DRIVER_VERSION 6.0.1.8656
SYSTEM_SOUND_DRIVER_LANGUAGE Engels
SYSTEM_SOUND_DRIVER_DATE 3/19/2019 01:00:00
SYSTEM_INPUT {6F1D2B60-D5A0-11CF-BFC7444553540000}
SYSTEM_INPUT_NAME Muis
SYSTEM_INPUT_REMARKS SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_AXIS 2 SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_BUTTON 2 SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_FOV 0
SYSTEM_INPUT {6F1D2B61-D5A0-11CF-BFC7444553540000}
SYSTEM_INPUT_NAME Toetsenbord
SYSTEM_INPUT_REMARKS SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_AXIS 0 SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_BUTTON 128 SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_FOV 0
SYSTEM_INPUT {C00CE6E0-8C40-11ED-800B444553540000}
SYSTEM_INPUT_NAME Arctis 7P+
SYSTEM_INPUT_REMARKS SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_AXIS 0 SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_BUTTON 0 SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_FOV 0
SYSTEM_INPUT {C00DAA30-8C40-11ED-800C444553540000}
SYSTEM_INPUT_NAME Arctis 7P+
SYSTEM_INPUT_REMARKS SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_AXIS 0 SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_BUTTON 5 SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_FOV 0
SYSTEM_INPUT {21C4FB30-8C3B-11ED-8002444553540000}
SYSTEM_INPUT_NAME Intel(R) HID Event Filter
SYSTEM_INPUT_REMARKS SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_AXIS 0 SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_BUTTON 1 SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_FOV 0
SYSTEM_INPUT {21C6A8E0-8C3B-11ED-8006444553540000}
SYSTEM_INPUT_NAME HIDI2C Device
SYSTEM_INPUT_REMARKS SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_AXIS 0 SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_BUTTON 0 SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_FOV 0
SYSTEM_INPUT {21C76C30-8C3B-11ED-8008444553540000}
SYSTEM_INPUT_NAME HIDI2C Device
SYSTEM_INPUT_REMARKS SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_AXIS 0 SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_BUTTON 0 SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_FOV 0
SYSTEM_INPUT {C5D5CE00-8C4C-11ED-800E444553540000}
SYSTEM_INPUT_NAME Wireless Controller
SYSTEM_INPUT_REMARKS SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_AXIS 6 SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_BUTTON 15 SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_FOV 1
SYSTEM_INPUT {C00E1F60-8C40-11ED-800D444553540000}
SYSTEM_INPUT_NAME Arctis 7P+
SYSTEM_INPUT_REMARKS SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_AXIS 0 SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_BUTTON 0 SYSTEM_GAMEPAD_FOV 0
-=-=-=-=-=-=- Application Information -=-=-=-=-=-=-
FFXIVLauncher
System Report ffxiv - Google Zoeken - Google Chrome
Steam
Final Fantasy XIV A Realm Reborn
NVIDIA GeForce Overlay
Instellingen
Instellingen
Microsoft Text Input Application
-=-=-=-=-=-=- Install Information -=-=-=-=-=-=-
Google Chrome
Microsoft Edge
Microsoft Edge Update
Microsoft Edge WebView2 Runtime
qBittorrent 4.3.9
RPG MAKER VX Ace RTP
Steam
Microsoft Visual C++ 2015-2019 Redistributable (x64) - 14.29.30133
Microsoft Visual C++ 2015-2019 Redistributable (x86) - 14.29.30133
Microsoft Visual C++ 2019 X86 Additional Runtime - 14.29.30133
Microsoft Visual C++ 2019 X86 Minimum Runtime - 14.29.30133
FINAL FANTASY XIV Online
SteelSeries GG 26.1.0
WinRAR 6.11 (64-bit)
Logitech G HUB
Microsoft Visual C++ 2019 X64 Minimum Runtime - 14.29.30133
Microsoft Update Health Tools
NVIDIA Grafisch stuurprogramma 528.02
NVIDIA GeForce Experience 3.26.0.160
NVIDIA Optimus Update 39.4.0.0
NVIDIA PhysX Systeem Software 9.21.0713
NVIDIA Update 39.4.0.0
NVIDIA FrameView SDK 1.3.8107.31782123
NVIDIA SHIELD Streaming
NVIDIA GPX Common OSS binaries (POCO, OpenSSL, libprotobuf)
NVIDIA HD Audio-stuurprogramma 1.3.39.16
NVIDIA Install Application
NVIDIA Backend
NVIDIA Container
NVIDIA TelemetryApi helper for NvContainer
NVIDIA LocalSystem Container
NVIDIA Message Bus for NvContainer
NVIDIA NVAPI Monitor plugin for NvContainer
NVIDIA NetworkService Container
NVIDIA Session Container
NVIDIA User Container
NVIDIA NvModuleTracker
NVIDIA NodeJS
NVIDIA Watchdog Plugin for NvContainer
NVIDIA Telemetry Client
NVIDIA Virtual Host Controller
Nvidia Share
NVIDIA ShadowPlay 3.26.0.160
NVIDIA SHIELD Wireless Controller Driver
NVIDIA Update Core
NVIDIA USBC Driver 1.50.831.832
NVIDIA Virtual Audio 4.45.0.0
Microsoft Visual C++ 2019 X64 Additional Runtime - 14.29.30133
-=-=-=-=-=-=- Proccess Information -=-=-=-=-=-=-
C:\Program Files (x86)\NVIDIA Corporation\NvNode\NVIDIA Web Helper.exe 00000EDC
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\GameOverlayUI.exe 00002728
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\bin\cef\cef.win7x64\steamwebhelper.exe 000017E4
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steam.exe 00003074
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\FINAL FANTASY XIV Online\boot\ffxivlauncher.exe 00003C28
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\FINAL FANTASY XIV Online\boot\ffxivsysinfo64.exe 000041D0
C:\Program Files\Google\Chrome\Application\chrome.exe 0000412C
C:\Program Files\LGHUB\lghub.exe 00002FBC
C:\Program Files\LGHUB\lghub_agent.exe 00002F34
C:\Program Files\LGHUB\system_tray\lghub_system_tray.exe 00002F1C
C:\Program Files\NVIDIA Corporation\NVIDIA GeForce Experience\NVIDIA Share.exe 00001C24
C:\Program Files\NVIDIA Corporation\NvContainer\nvcontainer.exe 000037C4
C:\Program Files\WindowsApps\CLEVOCO.FnhotkeysandOSD_3.101.3.0_x64__6h6z29zh29qx0\FnKey\FnKey.exe 0000324C
C:\Program Files\WindowsApps\Microsoft.Windows.Photos_2022.30120.12006.0_x64__8wekyb3d8bbwe\Microsoft.Photos.exe 00004124
C:\Program Files\WindowsApps\Microsoft.YourPhone_1.22102.229.0_x64__8wekyb3d8bbwe\PhoneExperienceHost.exe 000028B4
C:\Users\Jelle\AppData\Local\Discord\app-1.0.9008\Discord.exe 0000276C
C:\Users\Jelle\AppData\Local\Microsoft\OneDrive\OneDrive.exe 000035CC
C:\WINDOWS\Explorer.EXE 00001BA8
C:\WINDOWS\System32\DriverStore\FileRepository\cui_dch.inf_amd64_71cc42bf8b620f67\igfxEM.exe 00001890
C:\WINDOWS\System32\svchost.exe 00001430
C:\WINDOWS\system32\ApplicationFrameHost.exe 00002AB8
C:\WINDOWS\system32\DllHost.exe 0000337C
C:\WINDOWS\system32\conhost.exe 000039DC
C:\WINDOWS\system32\sihost.exe 00000A9C
C:\WINDOWS\system32\svchost.exe 000017BC
C:\WINDOWS\system32\taskhostw.exe 0000422C
C:\WINDOWS\system32\wbem\unsecapp.exe 000041D4
C:\Windows\ImmersiveControlPanel\SystemSettings.exe 00003BEC
C:\Windows\System32\RtkAudUService64.exe 00002C3C
C:\Windows\System32\RuntimeBroker.exe 00001D58
C:\Windows\System32\SecurityHealthSystray.exe 00002AAC
C:\Windows\System32\SystemSettingsBroker.exe 00000650
C:\Windows\System32\oobe\UserOOBEBroker.exe 000009A4
C:\Windows\SystemApps\Microsoft.LockApp_cw5n1h2txyewy\LockApp.exe 0000233C
C:\Windows\SystemApps\Microsoft.Windows.Search_cw5n1h2txyewy\SearchApp.exe 00002CC8
C:\Windows\SystemApps\Microsoft.Windows.StartMenuExperienceHost_cw5n1h2txyewy\StartMenuExperienceHost.exe 00001E90
C:\Windows\SystemApps\MicrosoftWindows.Client.CBS_cw5n1h2txyewy\TextInputHost.exe 00001BFC
C:\Windows\SystemApps\ShellExperienceHost_cw5n1h2txyewy\ShellExperienceHost.exe 00000E74
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Click on the Nvidia Control Panel app, select 3D Settings, click blue link "Windows graphics settings", in this OS menu, click "Browse" under Add an app > Desktop app, browse to the FFXIV folder, open "game" folder, select "ffxiv_dx11.exe" and click Add, once added to menu, click on it in the list and select "High Performance" which is the 2060.
Back on the Nvidia app with blue link, click "Program settings" tab, click Add, now in this window you select FFXIV_dx11.exe, if its not showing, select Browse and go to the same folder I mentioned above, once added, select the option under .2 below, select High Performance Nvidia Processor, then click Accept at bottom of window.
Then load up the game, on title screen press Config, go to Display tab from System config, it should say RTX_2060 in this window, if it says UHD, see if you can select RTX from Display drop down "Display.1 / Display.2".
In this same menu, scroll down and make sure the game is set to FULLSCREEN mode, Window or Borderless will usually Stutter, you can still tab out of Fullscreen mode, so no need to use Borderless/Window, as they introduce stutter in most systems.
At the bottom of the same window, make sure to set Frame Rate to 60Hz (60), Unlimited will stutter, 30 will stutter as well, set it to 60.
Hopefully after doing all of that, your Stutters will go away.
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Thank you for your reply! I have tried all these options but sadly the stutter still happens randomly. It looked like it went away for a while but then it happened again sadly. Could it be something wrong with the graphic card itself maybe?
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You can try disabling the Steam Overlay, this can cause issues but its not that common, in Steam > Menu > Settings > In-Game > uncheck the Use Steam Overlay.
Try that and see if anything changes.
Next I would disable the Nvidia Geforce Overlay, this often causes stutter, find it in the Nvidia Experience app, top right cog and its in the settings some place just have a look through the options.
Try it with it disabled and see if it stops stuttering.
Next you can try Windows Power settings, often Gaming Laptops default to the "Balanced" power plan, this often causes stutters as the GPU will be affected first, in Windows > Start > Settings > System > Power and Battery > Power Mode > Select "Best Performance" and test, if its on it, try "Balanced" to rule out issue.
If nothing changes, check Nvidia Control Panel app, go to 3D tab, select FFXIV from "Programs list", make sure its sill got "High performance" under .2, in the list down below with lots of options, scroll through the options and check "Power Management mode", it should say "Optimal Power", try "Prefer Maximum Performance" and test in-game.
If nothing changes, try that last option on "Consistent" then test, and "Diver" and test.
Check in this same list down the page "V-Sync" is set to On or Use 3D app setting, if its On, put it on 3D app, if its 3D app, put it to "On" and test.
You may have G-Sync options as well some where in the app, if so check what its set at.
I don't think you'll find its the card, but you could test in other games, does it stutter in only FFXIV or multiple games, or all?
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I have disabled the Steam and Nvidia Overlay and I have put the power plan to Best Performance. I also put Power Management Mode to Prefer Maximum Performance and put V-sync on 3D app settings like you said but the stutters are still happening sadly. I have also had V-sync totally off before but the stutters would still be happening so I had set V-sync to 3D settings again but I just had the stutters again.
For my next try I will put V-sync to On and Power Management Mode to Consistent. I also don't have any G-sync options on my gaming laptop.
Hmm, no I haven't noticed any stuttering in other games so I think it only happens in FFXIV. I did notice that the temperature is really high with my CPU at around 90 degrees Celsius in game so maybe that could cause some issues.
I also saw this earlier:https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...3422eec52a9fba
Although my game doesn't really freeze or crash, the stutters do appear after a while of gaming (about 2/3 hours, maybe 4) so maybe this could be something?
Also, Thank you very much for your replies! They are very helpful and really easy to follow. I am not that great with computers so I am very thankful!
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What brand and model is your Laptop?
The thing with most of these gaming laptops is they have Nvidia Optimus which switch's the Graphics device depending on the app/game used, this game is usually really good with it and automatically uses the best one, but it can cause issues too, as the Nvidia card has to connect to the Processors graphics to output to the screen. You can try connecting an HDMI cable to your laptop, this will usually bypass the Intel graphics completely as its connected directly to the Nvidia card, so you could see if its a Sync issue if you have a T.V screen to test or other monitor, I would connect the laptop to one and test to see if it still stutters.
Also, check this screen I post, is yours the same or does it say Intel UHD xxxx or something, make it sure it says Nvidia like mine:
https://i.postimg.cc/gjTd4JNx/kit01.png
Also check its the same here:
https://i.postimg.cc/RFcxKdnb/kit02.png
Just to make sure, is your settings in the top pic the same as in for example 1920x1080 (60Hz) or is it 1920x1080 (144Hz) or some else?
If none of that fixes it, it maybe a heat issue depending on the laptop brand and model, software wise, for example MSI uses an app to control Fan speeds, and for some reason its usually defaulted to Auto which is way too low and was actually an issue I had myself that caused brief stuttering, I simply used the MSI app to make a custom fan curve to keep the GPU at 60 degrees or less, on Auto it hit 80+ lol.
No problem! Hopefully can find a fix, there's quite a lot of things to check with these gaming laptops!
And if anyone is reading... always check before you buy a new gaming laptop that it has a "MUX" switch, these are fairly new features and allows you to turn off Processor graphics completely, the Nvidia card can connect directly to the laptop monitor allowing G-Sync support for example, but really gives you full advantage of the Nvidia card and makes getting games to work properly almost fault free, as Optimus is a huge issue using Intel UHD+ as the pass-through to the display, causing many issues.
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Sorry for the late reply! I didn't have any stutters for a day but somehow they returned right when I entered a PVP match just now. And then they appeared in the regular overworld again as well. I am using a Raider Laptop and the model is NH55RD.
I have tried connecting a HDMI cable to my laptop but sadly the stutters also appeared on my TV so I don't think it is a sync issue.
My settings are exactly the same as yours. It says Nvidia and 1920x1080 (60Hz) for me as well.
I did order a laptop pad that has fans in it so that might cool it some! Maybe that would work. I also just now put the Power Management mode setting in Driver and V-sync back on 3d settings since the stutters still happened on ON.
It is very strange that nothing helped so far. I didn't have these issues 2/3 months ago and I can't think of any noticeable changes that I did in the settings at that time.
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Hmm, have you tried the Graphics setting on Standard, High and Maximum, does it make any difference?
I just notice you previously posted that the CPU hits 90 degrees, that is extremely hot and usually, from what I read, 90 degrees is a point at which the Processor will Throttle and I think a GPU will as well depending on the Laptop, to keep it from hitting 100 degrees which I think is the point where solder may start to slightly melt and thus, chips will fail.
That would explain why it only happens with FFXIV. I forgot to mention, you should check the Windows OS power plan setting, if you click on Search, type "Mobility" and Windows Mobility Center will pop up.
Open that and check "Battery Status" > here it will say either "Custom" "Balanced" or "High Performance", I leave mine on Balanced, but if you get issues like stutter you can put it on High Performance which sometimes helps.
But I think you issue is Heat, a cooling pad should help a little bit, though the fact this game runs the CPU at 90 (mine is 68 degrees on Maximum graphics) seems like something else is at play.
Do you have an app to control the in-built fans? this should be a standard feature, I would check the installed apps. If not, I'd use something like HWinfo, its a free app that monitors all your PC components and allows you to set fan speeds, I have used it myself on an old Laptop to keep it cool as back in 2009 they didn't include these features often. You can find it at hwinfo.com or search that in google and review what people say about it first if you are unsure if its safe to use.
Hopefully the cooling pad helps, but i'd still seek a way to set the fans to cool the laptop as well.
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Hello! The stuttering issues are finally over! I took my laptop apart again and really took apart the fans as well and there was a big layer of dust on them. After removing it and playing FFXIV with the cooling pad, the game stays at around 60/70 degrees! I also had no more stuttering issues since then so it seems the cause was the heat after all!
Thank you very much for helping me with this and checking everything with me. I am very grateful! Thank you! :D
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You're welcome :)
That is one downside to gaming Laptops, dust builds up on the Fan.
If you encounter stutter again, you might want to re-paste the CPU and GPU, doing so is recommended to solve most heating issues, often stock paste is poorly applied and dries out and goes crusty, making the connection between the heatsink and GPU weak, it will not be able to affectively cool the GPU.
I forgot to mention you can use MSI Afterburner to do things like monitor GPU and adjust Fan speed and many other useful things: https://www.msi.com/Landing/afterburner/graphics-cards.
Hopefully it stays cool with the pad, goodluck!
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Greetings Povesl,
I'm happy to hear that the issue has been resolved through the help of another adventurer! As it seems that all is well now, I'll go ahead and move this thread to the 'Closed Concerns' subforums.
Thank you for visiting the FINAL FANTASY XIV Technical Support Forums!