simple way to reduce button bloat without changing gameplay

back in stormblood, there were abilities that would change into others depending on whether you were on tank stance or dps stance (such as inner beast and fell cleave), so why not do the same for AOE?

everyone is on "single target" stance by default, then pressing the AOE stance changes your skills to their corresponding AOE versions.

1-2 combos turn into the AOE combos, fell cleave turns into decimate, upheaval turns into orogeny, edge of shadow turns into flood of shadow, senei turns into guren, shoha turns into shoha 2, etc.

instead of needing 4-9 different keybinds for your aoe skills, you only need 1 to turn AOE stance on and off.

Much like how those damn, dirty mods do. I wouldn't know anything of it though. Just heard from one of them shady people all made of shadows and malcontent.

or all skills are aoe <.<

I can't wait to start rapidly stance switching in 2 target fights because one of my AOE abilities is a gain on 2

Uhm guys, you can already do this in the game without any mod.

Assuming hotbar 1 is your regular and hotbar 9 is your AOE. Just create 2 macro to switch between them. I do this on RPR 'cause the absurd number of buttons it has.

/macroicon "Soul Scythe"
/hotbar change 9

^ put that macro on your Hotbar 1.

/macroicon "Soul Slice"
/hotbar change 1

^ put that macro on your Hotbar 9.

Than voila, you don't have to redo and add any keybind, so can just 1-2-3-4-5 your AOE set like usual. Work well on DNC too, but DNC doesn't have that many button to begin with.

Simple button compression is all that's needed. Instead of straight up dumbing it down so that whenever you need aoes your buttons switch automatically just make some buttons automatically swap to others under certain circumstances.

For example ARC/BRD doesn't need Heavy Shot and Straight Shot. If Straight Shot Ready is proc'd just turn Heavy Shot into straight shot. Or on BLM, once you use Ley Lines it should turn into Between the Lines until Ley Lines goes on CD.

Just little things like this would help immensely. It would add up to quite a bit. And it's not like there isn't a precedent for them doing things like this either. DRK's Salted Earth turns into Salt and Darkness automatically. GNB's Burst Strike turns into Hypervelocity automatically too. They can compress a lot of buttons easily, they just choose not to.

make all combos into One Button Man

Simply just make 1-2-3 combos a single button like they already have done for things like Mirage Dive/High Jump.

Then incorporate things like Primal Rend over Inner release on activation.

While they are at it, Make things like Aetherflow turn into Energy Drain on cast.

Summoner already has all this, so why not every other job.

I do agree that some bloat exists. I think addressing this correctly involves looking at these jobs and thinking about what they're actually intended to do, and then cutting out a lot of unnecessary fat that's just there for no reason. Bard for example, has an ogcd called sidewinder. It's just there to be pressed when it comes off cd. It doesn't add anything to my enjoyment of the job. It's just yet another thing I can't forget to do. If it were removed and its potency were simply added to my kit in some other way, I could place something else there and nothing of value would be lost except for a skill I hit every 60 seconds because it's there. Or if they want to keep it, it should have some kind of synergy with the rest of my kit. AST's minor arcana is similar. Since it's luck oriented, I can't strategize around it. I press it because it's there. If it's a damage card, I just press it again during my burst. If it ceased to exist, I genuinely wouldn't care and I could place a different skill in its place. Every job that people think of when they consider "bloat" is generally loaded down with extra crap like this where you press it because it's off cooldown, but it doesn't really accomplish much or add to your enjoyment of the game. The problem is when the devs go in to clean it up, they're so out of touch that they remove things that feel integral to the job's gameplay loop. For example, in endwalker they tried to examine AST's purpose and address complaints about it, and wound up removing the entire divination minigame from the job's gameplay loop, in favor of a personal buff that (afaik) nobody asked for. Or with bard, they killed the dot procs so now dots feel like an annoyance, a thing you do just to do, and not something that feeds into your job's gameplay identity by allowing you to fully utilize your songs. They might as well remove bard's dots entirely now, since they serve no purpose other than to be pressed manually once, and then kept up in the future with ironjaws. And even then, within the scope of the job's kit, they accomplish nothing.

idk man, I think there are ways to do this but they're really hard and require a lot of thought and a deep understanding of how the job plays so that you can surgically remove unnecessary crap without angering longtime fans of the job, and atm SE just doesn't have what it takes to do that. If AST and DRG aren't completely gutted in 7.0, I'll be pleasantly surprised; I get really nervous when these devs talk about streamlining jobs because they lack the subtlety and care to do it right imo. btw For those of you asking for a 1 button combo system, peep the healer section to see how positively thrilled they are about mashing [1] through an encounter. It's boring as hell, but I honestly bet we'll get it anyway, sooner or later, and there won't even be an option to revert it.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

Simply just make 1-2-3 combos a single button like they already have done for things like Mirage Dive/High Jump.

Then incorporate things like Primal Rend over Inner release on activation.

While they are at it, Make things like Aetherflow turn into Energy Drain on cast.

Summoner already has all this, so why not every other job.

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What's weird to me is the system is already in game and doesn't need fancy macros or mods.

PvP uses action rotation.

Or just remove all the aoes

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Originally Posted by Renalt

What's weird to me is the system is already in game and doesn't need fancy macros or mods.

PvP uses action rotation.

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It's weird, in the past I was against them doing something like that for PvE, however, recently I would say I wouldn't be against it, or at least give the player the option to do so. Many actions already do this now so they might as well just go all the way.

Yes macros were used to do this on Warriors at first and that led to the developers making it so Warriors don't have to macro it. Then we got the upgrade system generally for a lot of attacks as we level, then that became situational to reduce button bloat, especially recently.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

Simply just make 1-2-3 combos a single button like they already have done for things like Mirage Dive/High Jump.

Then incorporate things like Primal Rend over Inner release on activation.

While they are at it, Make things like Aetherflow turn into Energy Drain on cast.

Summoner already has all this, so why not every other job.

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that becomes a problem for jobs with multiple combos though. how would the game determine whether you want to use storm's path or storm's eye? let alone the SAM combos

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Originally Posted by Melethron123

that becomes a problem for jobs with multiple combos though. how would the game determine whether you want to use storm's path or storm's eye? let alone the SAM combos

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You have one for Gekko, one for Kasha and one for Yukikaze. If you progress with one, you don't progress with the others so you can still interrupt. The old issue with Meikyo Shisui is now also gone as the buttons can just change to the combo enders as they will give their respective buffs now.

The only real problematic one is Monk and Perfect Balance, however you can say Monk doesn't have many actions so it really isn't a concern there (for now).

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

You have one for Gekko, one for Kasha and one for Yukikaze. If you progress with one, you don't progress with the others so you can still interrupt. The old issue with Meikyo Shisui is now also gone as the buttons can just change to the combo enders as they will give their respective buffs now.

The only real problematic one is Monk and Perfect Balance, however you can say Monk doesn't have many actions so it really isn't a concern there (for now).

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that doesn't address the buff/dot refreshing combos, and it'd be very weird to have some jobs whose combos are in one button and other jobs where it isn't

i suppose the alternative would be doing away with multiple combos, but i'm not a fan of spamming one button throughout the whole fight (which is why i don't play bard or healers in the first place)

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Originally Posted by bex404

or all skills are aoe <.<

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I wish more people were on board with this as a solve because "aoe rotations" aren't any more interesting than hitting the single target 123s anyway

Like why does Soul Scythe or Whorl of Death even exist? It does the same as Soul Slice/Shadow of death respectively except THIS TIME ITS AOE it's so dumb lol

i would love if they add new feature for hotbars where we can put 2 any skills in 1 button. like for 1-2-3 combos turn to 1-1-2 or 1-2-2 combos. Just like in pvp action rotations

I will hate it if they force one button pvp rotation to everybody, but if they make it an option, then fine.

simple way to reduce button bloat without changing gameplay? they did it in PVP . just use the same thing.

If only there were some way to please both sides of the PvP combo button argument.....
Like maybe......putting the "combo" action as a separate action in the actions menu....

Yep, that would just be too craaaaazy to consider.

I'm using the hotbar swap feature the game offers and switch to the AoE hotbar when needed.
It made me realize how some jobs have button bloat simply because they have AoE versions of certain abilities/skills that share CD with the single target version.

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Originally Posted by Melethron123

everyone is on "single target" stance by default, then pressing the AOE stance changes your skills to their corresponding AOE versions.

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This is literally what I do.

My primary hotbar has an in game macro to swap between hotbars 1 and 3. Bar 1 has single target attacks, and a macro to go to 3. Bar 3 has AOEs, and a macro to go to 1.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

Simple button compression is all that's needed. Instead of straight up dumbing it down so that whenever you need aoes your buttons switch automatically just make some buttons automatically swap to others under certain circumstances.

For example ARC/BRD doesn't need Heavy Shot and Straight Shot. If Straight Shot Ready is proc'd just turn Heavy Shot into straight shot. Or on BLM, once you use Ley Lines it should turn into Between the Lines until Ley Lines goes on CD.

Just little things like this would help immensely. It would add up to quite a bit. And it's not like there isn't a precedent for them doing things like this either. DRK's Salted Earth turns into Salt and Darkness automatically. GNB's Burst Strike turns into Hypervelocity automatically too. They can compress a lot of buttons easily, they just choose not to.

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If any ability is a direct requirement for another ability they should behave like this.

Why this happens on some jobs but not others is just frustrating.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Uhm guys, you can already do this in the game without any mod.

Assuming hotbar 1 is your regular and hotbar 9 is your AOE. Just create 2 macro to switch between them. I do this on RPR 'cause the absurd number of buttons it has.

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But this doesn't solve the real problem with button bloat.

XIV is designed around having a certain number of buttons. They have expressed this on more than one occasion that in Endwalker the classes are more or less "at their limit" for how many buttons they can have.

The problem with bloat is not that the player doesn't have a solution for it. It's that the skill design space is limited by this bloat.

For instance, Black Mage has 32 class/role buttons. (I'll leave potions and Sprint out of the picture for simplicity.)

Out of those buttons, 6 buttons are AoE version of single target buttons. As you state, you can use a macro to toggle your bars to facilitate an AoE toggle (provided you are not already using them all, of course...) That leaves you with 26 buttons in total.

Or does it? The 6 paged buttons still exist for the class, and that space cannot be used for other skill design. If they comimitted to an official system with an AoE stance swap, you would truly eliminate these skills, making the actual number of skills Black Mage has 26, then say +1 for the new stance button making 27. That's 5 extra buttons for skill design space that are being squandered on vapid button clones.

To speak nothing of combo buttons, of course.

I am not arguing for or against the existence of an AoE stance, as I agree with others that the implementation of it does not have 0 drawbacks and I frankly don't care to think that hard about something that I seriously doubt will ever exist (however their impulse to remove Cleric Stance comes to mind.) But an officially supported AoE swap button would be simply superior to a macro hack. Also, a macro solution being obviously optional additionally creates a problem I'll address in a different response:

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Originally Posted by undull1

If only there were some way to please both sides of the PvP combo button argument.....
Like maybe......putting the "combo" action as a separate action in the actions menu....

Yep, that would just be too craaaaazy to consider.

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As I outlined above with a prospective AoE toggle, the benefit of combining buttons is lost if it doesn't expand the classes' design space.

With that goal in mind, making the change optional creates a design problem: Players using the paging combo buttons would be asking for new skills because they now have space for them. To cater to them leaves those who choose not to use them with the original problem: too many buttons. Whatever implementation for this would have to be uniform or there's really no point in even doing it (unless you just really badly want to go 11111111111111111111 instead of 123123123123123123 at face value.)



Ultimately, the entire problem with button bloat is it leaves them with no space for new class design. They're already only adding like 2ish new buttons each expansion, with others being passives, upgrades, pages for existing skills, or deleting old skills, the last of which is a volatile solution (Example: community response to SAM's Kaiten.) If they cleaned up wasteful buttons, they would have more room to continue to expand upon classes without risking blowing things up.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Uhm guys, you can already do this in the game without any mod.

Assuming hotbar 1 is your regular and hotbar 9 is your AOE. Just create 2 macro to switch between them. I do this on RPR 'cause the absurd number of buttons it has.

/macroicon "Soul Scythe"
/hotbar change 9

^ put that macro on your Hotbar 1.

/macroicon "Soul Slice"
/hotbar change 1

^ put that macro on your Hotbar 9.

Than voila, you don't have to redo and add any keybind, so can just 1-2-3-4-5 your AOE set like usual. Work well on DNC too, but DNC doesn't have that many button to begin with.

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I do the same thing with RPR for the exact same reason. I've been working on converting other DPS and tanks over to that system, too. Doesn't work out quite as well on healers.

Unfortunately it's not really as simple as adding the PvP single button rotations to PvE when jobs like monk and black mage exist.

FFXIV has honestly absolutely terrible hotbar slot economy.
All classes have several redundant skills with aoe versions of single target skills being the main culprit here but closely followed by skills that can only be used in sequence yet take up multiple slots (e.g. Ley Lines/ Between the Lines) and a couple of copy-pasted generic "a bit of extra potency on a cooldown" skills or "move HP to the right but with a different name".
And as angelar pointed out, any solutions through hotbar swapping, crime tools, just not using skills and so on do not mean anything from a dev standpoint as you can't guarantee players will use it so you need to plan with a "worst case" in mind and that worst case is that our hotbars are full and have no more space for adding skills without merging/ deleting others.

Whether they add a stance to swap between single target/ aoe or just make all single target skills aoe with a falloff, they need to find a better solution than pruning skills from lower levels and giving them back in the newest expansion with a different name. Low level gameplay becomes increasingly barebone and boring because of this and yet all the wasted hotbar slots on separate aoe rotations don't add anything that would justify blocking this many slots when instead of a simplified "just spam in trash pulls" you could instead have smoother skill acquisition and better low level gameplay and more interaction and interesting skills in your toolkit.
Do we really need "just like single target... but aoe!" or several flat potency, press on cooldown skills?
It limits skill design without adding anything to justify it.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

Unfortunately it's not really as simple as adding the PvP single button rotations to PvE when jobs like monk and black mage exist.

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Merge:
Blizzard III and High Blizzard II
Blizzard IV and Freeze
Fire III and High Fire II
Despair and Flare
Foul and Xeno
Thunder III and Thunder IV
Ley Lines and Between the Lines

7 buttons saved. Aoe rotations aren't inherently interesting because they are just simplified, shorter snigle target rotations so it's not like you would lose an exciting part of your gameplay.
Especially considering aoe rotations are exclusive to some casual content situations (and not even all, just SOME), like dungeon trash pulls, fates and treasure maps while polishing the universal rotation would mean more interesting gameplay in all types of content, from the MSQ progger or fate farmer to the Ultimate raider.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

Merge:
Blizzard III and High Blizzard II
Blizzard IV and Freeze
Fire III and High Fire II
Despair and Flare
Foul and Xeno
Thunder III and Thunder IV
Ley Lines and Between the Lines

7 buttons saved. Aoe rotations aren't inherently interesting because they are just simplified, shorter snigle target rotations so it's not like you would lose an exciting part of your gameplay.
Especially considering aoe rotations are exclusive to some casual content situations (and not even all, just SOME), like dungeon trash pulls, fates and treasure maps while polishing the universal rotation would mean more interesting gameplay in all types of content, from the MSQ progger or fate farmer to the Ultimate raider.

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While I agree AoE rotations aren't super interesting and merging them like that could potentially work, I was referring strictly to the PvP style of "press this one button that changes as you press it" single button combo rotation that people are suggesting. Unless Square is going to map out the absolutely OPTIMAL BLM rotation, I don't see that kind of system ever being applied in PvE lol.

But yeah, there are definitely skills that can be merged to reduce the bloat. There's also the idea of just... revamping the jobs as well, which will probably never happen, because Square is just so in love with the 2 minute burst window idea. As well as healers being button bloat: the role.

You're right, just merging combos wouldn't work for something like BLM which is why I don't think it's the solution either. But I was personally never too fond of combos anyway because unless they are branching combos that give you a meaningful choice, they are extremely wasteful with hotbar slots and don't add anything to the gameplay. Pressing glowing buttons in order for slightly increased potency isn't the pinnacle of skill expression, no matter what some people claim. And your entire ARR is basically just "press 123 in order" with things slowly getting added during HW but you feel the extreme low level skill pruning in lv 70 Ultimates.
If the only engagement comes from "Well, you could accidentally press the wrong button in panic!" then that's really not much compared to, say, miscalculating mana ticks and being left with a short AF phase when that wasn't your intention or starting your melee combo at the wrong time.

Branching combos are good though and they're not wasteful either. And they offer a simplified but solid version of your rotation if you're just not at a point where you're good at doing them correctly. I was one of the people that just used 123456 on MNK when levelling it in ShB. Was it ideal? Nope. But it did the job well enough and I wasn't neck-deep into MNK gameplay.

Of course I'd personally prefer to have a good revamp with a close look at a lot of skills, the 2min burst meta that can go to hell and adjust it all but I know it won't happen.
FFXIV relies a lot on having almost 3 hotbars full of fluff and the sheer amount makes it seem complex but then about 1/4 of it is for aoe alone, 1/4 is "fluff/ niche/ you never use it lol", 1/4 is "flat potency press on cooldown" and the remaining couple of buttons are your core rotation - which then boils down to pressing 123 and something else in the correct order.
And I've seen in other games how you can engage a pretty engaging gameplay with just 5 buttons. And yes, that would work in FFXIV as well.
But quantity gets mistaken for quality here on many classes and the below current expansion gameplay gets increasingly worse.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

You're right, just merging combos wouldn't work for something like BLM which is why I don't think it's the solution either. But I was personally never too fond of combos anyway because unless they are branching combos that give you a meaningful choice, they are extremely wasteful with hotbar slots and don't add anything to the gameplay. Pressing glowing buttons in order for slightly increased potency isn't the pinnacle of skill expression, no matter what some people claim. And your entire ARR is basically just "press 123 in order" with things slowly getting added during HW but you feel the extreme low level skill pruning in lv 70 Ultimates.
If the only engagement comes from "Well, you could accidentally press the wrong button in panic!" then that's really not much compared to, say, miscalculating mana ticks and being left with a short AF phase when that wasn't your intention or starting your melee combo at the wrong time.

Branching combos are good though and they're not wasteful either. And they offer a simplified but solid version of your rotation if you're just not at a point where you're good at doing them correctly. I was one of the people that just used 123456 on MNK when levelling it in ShB. Was it ideal? Nope. But it did the job well enough and I wasn't neck-deep into MNK gameplay.

Of course I'd personally prefer to have a good revamp with a close look at a lot of skills, the 2min burst meta that can go to hell and adjust it all but I know it won't happen.
FFXIV relies a lot on having almost 3 hotbars full of fluff and the sheer amount makes it seem complex but then about 1/4 of it is for aoe alone, 1/4 is "fluff/ niche/ you never use it lol", 1/4 is "flat potency press on cooldown" and the remaining couple of buttons are your core rotation - which then boils down to pressing 123 and something else in the correct order.
And I've seen in other games how you can engage a pretty engaging gameplay with just 5 buttons. And yes, that would work in FFXIV as well.
But quantity gets mistaken for quality here on many classes and the below current expansion gameplay gets increasingly worse.

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I will always tout Guild Wars 1 (definitely NOT 2) as having the best combat in an online game like this. You come up with your own build, you slot eight skills that work together, it's not based on a rotation... Gosh, if FF14 and GW1 could be combined, I think we'd have the perfect game tbh, at least combat-wise.

Black Mage could also consolidate Fire IV and Blizzard IV into one button based on your Astral/Umbral status, same thing with Flare and Freeze. Alongside the aforementioned Leylines/Between the Lines merge that saves 3 buttons without removing any skills.

While I would also prefer to merge abilities that have the same function but are merely just single target/AoE variations, I still think there's some value in having AoE rotations themselves be separate and simplified versions of the single target rotations. A quick example off the top of my head would be Warriors AoE combo being both a generous beast gauge generator and their buff refresh rather than having 2 combo enders in their AoE rotation. Considering that it's primarily casual content that makes most use of AoE abilities, I think it's fine for those rotations to be much easier. I think it's only abilities that serve the purpose of being the 'AoE' version of another ability that should be merged (Upheaval and Orogeny, Foul and Xenoglossy, Senei and Guren, etc.), while AoE abilities that merge a jobs mechanics together should be left alone (Most AoE combo enders fit here really, typically applying a buff and generating a fair amount of resources at the same time).

Monk is the only job I can think of where combo consolidation wouldn't work without a serious rework to Perfect Balance and Form Shift. I would've said Samurai as well back in Shadowbringers, but since the buffs from within their combos now also apply with their combo enders under Meikyo Shisui, combo consolidation there wouldn't be an issue; 3 buttons to represent the Gekko, Kasha, and Yukikaze combos and Meikyo would change those 3 buttons to their enders.