They need a stepping stone between EX and savage.

I was sitting here not even sure how the heck to write this and I think it hit me near the end of it.

Right now we got this situation where there are people that can totally do the high tier of savage within a couple of weeks of launch. But there is a huge swath of people that can only commit limited time to do it and they are all getting funneled into the same progression.

Is it really worth doing an entire savage tier and then only having one or two weeks at the end to even appreciate the rewards? I remember there was a tier where I tried a casual group and we didn't even get all our weapons or mounts. While cosmetics can be sort of a long term goal, it certainly doesn't feel too good to slow burn content and then have the next set of savage mode dropped the next week.

That pushed me into going harder, and I tried out doing mid-tier. That is where all the pacing issues started happening between players, because it seems obvious: If someone wants to get through content faster, you find people that go for more days, right? But then at what cost does this extra time come? It definitely feels like it goes from "this is a part of a game" to being "part time job", pretty fast once someone throws in videos, crafting prep, and other aspects.

It also seems like those who are the most dedicated to savage also tend to be omni-crafters with penta-melded gear. That absolutely blew my mind since that is not exactly a "free" activity when it comes to time.

So stepping back here, if it takes the people who really love savage to literally penta-meld gear for crafting and also at the same time dedicate multiple days just to clear savage fast enough to enjoy the rewards, and the next closest thing to savage is an ex fight that takes literally a day to clear, where is the mid-level raiding content for people that don't pentameld craft and only have enough time for a couple of hours a week? We're getting island sanctuary and stuff like unreal, but then this thing called savage just kind of sits there like this insanely huge mountain to climb compared to all the rest of the content.

I mean it is appreciated that people in this upper level of play come back and help others get through the savage content and make a mid-tier and casual tier even possible in raiding, but this is kind of a problem.

Also, it is kind of weird to make dyable versions of normal raid gear a reward for savage when the base set probably should be dyable to begin with.

But then when you have that, where do you add an additional tier that are not good enough for your new tier, but too good for the EX tier?

If you're going for early clears, pentamelding is definitely going to be necessary, but at this stage people should have already picked up at least one or two full sets of tome gear to be able to run it.

I don't think there's any real way to have any kind of step between EX and Savage because it's really not that big of a leap to begin with. A lot of people just need to step up and stop screwing around as much as they do. There's only so much carrying that can be done.

Extreme essentially serve that purpose already. They're a step below Savage in most cases, with some being comparable to the first floor albeit with a far more generous enrage. If you can kill Barbariccia consistently, then you're able to tackle the first two floors of Savage. Admittedly, Carbuncle is on the much harder side of fight tier bosses than usual but he's still approachable. Adding a fight between these two feels entirely pointless. Not only would it have no real worthless reward structure, the difficulty difference between the two would be minuscule at best. If they were ever going to add an additional fight, it'd make far more sense to finally commit to Savage being five encounters itself. Although, that's another conversation.

Savage essentially nerfs itself as you obtain tome gear. By this stage of progression, you should have literally a fully set of i620 gear. Come 6.3 in the next few month, you'll be able to upgrade those pieces further. This is a huge advantage for reducing the difficulty. Anyone struggling afterwards in i630 simply needs more practice. No amount of new bosses will help them improve because the tools already exist. If it took you the entirety of eight months to prog through P1-P4, then dedicate what were your pain points and work on them throughout that span of time, and into the next tier so you can cut down on your next prog. For example, my very first Savage clear came in the week of echo being added for Creator. That was with a very casual group where all of us had just started raiding. Fast forward to today and I'm usually clearing the tier within two weeks or less. Now part of that is time availability but I'm simply a better player now than I was way back in 3.4.

What you're asking for already exists in a sense.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Is it really worth doing an entire savage tier and then only having one or two weeks at the end to even appreciate the rewards?

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That does bother me a bit. I have to throw away any previous savage gear and outfit myself with crafted gear.

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It definitely feels like it goes from "this is a part of a game" to being "part time job", pretty fast once someone throws in videos, crafting prep, and other aspects.

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It's fine being like a job if you clear it fast, but if reality sets in with different paces, recruiting new members, missed days and issues like that which drag it out, then you do feel that lack of free time.

You feel it because if you don't clear quickly, then even when you aren't raiding, you are preparing to raid, capping tomestones, melding, conserving energy, sleeping well, eating at a certain time so you have the energy to raid and don't need to take a break half way through to eat, watching or analyzing strats.

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It also seems like those who are the most dedicated to savage also tend to be omni-crafters with penta-melded gear.

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I'm not an omni-crafter, but I have one crafter and that is enough to pentameld all my gear after buying it from the market board. I have to sell everything I own, even things I don't want to, just to pay for it on the first day.

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where is the mid-level raiding content for people that don't pentameld craft and only have enough time for a couple of hours a week?

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Extreme. The first 2 floors are usually about as easy to pug as an extreme as well.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

That does bother me a bit. I have to throw away any previous savage gear and outfit myself with crafted gear.

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Frankly, it's one of the best things I've seen in an MMO, where crafters are often left with nothing to contribute to the end game. Aside from that, it makes for an even playing field for everyone to start over or return to the game. People will complain about pricing. Maybe they should try seeking out help. There are people out there with time and/or money to spare. :)

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Frankly, it's one of the best things I've seen in an MMO, where crafters are often left with nothing to contribute to the end game. Aside from that, it makes for an even playing field for everyone to start over or return to the game.

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If the crafted gear was the same item level as the previous tier's max item level, I think that plenty of people would still need crafted gear, such as those who skipped the previous tier or are new to trying out raids. Some of it might just flat out have better substats and still be desirable over the previous BiS, especially because it can be pentamelded. But it also means that you don't absolutely need to give the gear up because it's the same item level.

FYI just to clarify, when I said pentamelded gear I meant penta-melded Crafter gear which has a completely different set of arguably more difficult to obtain materia.

After seeing some of the replies it definitely seems like there needs to be a better mid tier level because the kind of comments where we start going down the rabbit hole of "it is okay, just when you have to do X it gets bad", it then begs the question as to why X happened to begin with? If the content is really okay content, why do we have so many people with conflicting amounts of time trying to party together and leading to social issues?

That is an honest content design problem and one of the ones that games like WoW did manage to solve, though unfortunately by the time it did solve it the community had already grown toxic to the point of disrepair.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

If the content is really okay content, why do we have so many people with conflicting amounts of time trying to party together and leading to social issues?

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Because it really comes down to a skill issue. Some catch on faster than others. Some take the time to actually practice the content. Others just think Duty Complete means they can properly get carried.

WoW addresses things through gear and people feel like that's better than a system where you actually have to get good instead of buy good. :p

The first couple of fights in a savage tier are the stepping stones.

The real stepping stone needed is between 'normal' and EX difficulty. Otherwise the line of EX-Savage-Ultimate is generally fair in difficulty steps.

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Originally Posted by Heroman3003

The real stepping stone needed is between 'normal' and EX difficulty. Otherwise the line of EX-Savage-Ultimate is generally fair in difficulty steps.

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Even that isn't needed. You just have fewer telegraphs and some new things to look out for. People just need to take the time to properly learn the fights and their respective mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Even that isn't needed. You just have fewer telegraphs and some new things to look out for. People just need to take the time to properly learn the fights and their respective mechanics.

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Main difficulty jumps isn't amount of mechanics, but tightness of the fights themselves. You can run through most normal content spamming same combo you did back at level 30 and be generally fine most of time due to how easy it is. There need to be some middle-ground fights that require using stuff like mitigation and proper buff timing to be successful, but not to extreme extent that EX jumps to.

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Originally Posted by Heroman3003

Main difficulty jumps isn't amount of mechanics, but tightness of the fights themselves. You can run through most normal content spamming same combo you did back at level 30 and be generally fine most of time due to how easy it is. There need to be some middle-ground fights that require using stuff like mitigation and proper buff timing to be successful, but not to extreme extent that EX jumps to.

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There is no in-between though. Either you need mitigation, i.e. Savage or you don't - normal. You can't have it where missing mitigation is ok but only sometimes.

Old savage? Alexander and the likes? Newer Ex content?

The difficulty of high end content isnt consistent nor is it really tiered, there are savages that are easier than some extremes, and some normal content that are harder than some extremes.

If you're struggling with some high end duty, try another. They arent all equal across a tier.

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Originally Posted by Tiramu

some normal content that are harder than some extremes.

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If so, then not much, or it's subjective (depending on item level or role in the extreme). I can't think of much other than maybe POTD or HoH.

Some things just require more practice than others and it varies from person to person.

There was stuff that basically served to be a stepping stone between normal and savage/ex... But the people that wanted easy mode got that stuff nerfed to 1 braincell difficulty

No, they need more stepping stones between braindead casual roulettes and EX.

Bozja filled that niche when it was relevant. Maybe the new deep dungeon will suffice? But I haven't enjoyed the last two enough to beat them.

Criterion dungeons are already a good bridge between EX and Savage content. Which is fine, but I feel like I've already got enough Savage/Ultimate/EX content to do when I want to try-hard.

Literally the only thing I can do when I want something slightly chill, but also engaging, is alliance raids. And only half of them actually meet that bar anymore.

Luckily I have GW2 to fill the gap, which has tons of that middle-ground content.

Wasn't this what the criterion dungeons was supposed to be?

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

Wasn't this what the criterion dungeons was supposed to be?

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No, criterion dungeons were supposed to be the FFXIV version of Mythic+ from WoW, which was heavily requested and even brought up to Yoshi-P in interviews.

a Mythic+ system would never work in XIV because there is no reward structure that is viable for such content.

Criterion is missing a lot to be close to M+ in resemblance...

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Originally Posted by Canadane

The first couple of fights in a savage tier are the stepping stones.

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And the later bosses are the stepping stones into ultimate

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

No, criterion dungeons were supposed to be the FFXIV version of Mythic+ from WoW, which was heavily requested and even brought up to Yoshi-P in interviews.

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But they weren't. They couldn't be further from Mythic+.

Mythic+ in Legion I could just grab a few guild or friends and run some keys that were at a suitable level for our skill. It was challenging, but still a fun activity where you could hop in and get a few runs down. They were also actual dungeons, lots of mobs to aoe, large interesting environments and so on.

Criterion is smaller scale Savage boss progression. Nothing more. You can go in and wipe for 4 hours on the first boss. Not exactly a bad thing in itself, but we already have Savage bosses. I personally have a static and P8 and Ultimate to run so I'm not interested right now and more casual players aren't into Savage prog either. Criterion caters to a small niche while anyone could jump into Mythic+ because it scaled in difficulty.

They missed the mark entirely.

Bozja felt the right step along with duels but since it uses an additional thing with lost actions/skills it can easily trivialise the content.

I remember fighting Lyon for the first time in a duel which sadly I didn't have dispel and die to the wind stuff but the difficulty felt fine.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

But they weren't. They couldn't be further from Mythic+.

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I suppose if that is what Mythic+ is, then they didn't quite get it right.

They did advertise how Variant dungeons could scale in difficulty, so maybe that was supposed to be the easier versions. I have only tried it solo, but I have my doubts that it gets much harder with a full party? And then it doesn't give the rewards that Criterion does, so it forces you to do Criterion difficulty regardless if you want the rewards.

except the rewards for doing Criterion don't make it worth doing unless you're in it just for the challenge of itself.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

If so, then not much, or it's subjective (depending on item level or role in the extreme). I can't think of much other than maybe POTD or HoH.

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I was more going for Ex and Savage content tbh. Like Sephirot and Thordan Ex's are comparable to some Savage.

But, while it may well be subjective, I think some late ShB and EW normals give some earlier Ex's a run for their money.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

But they weren't. They couldn't be further from Mythic+.

Mythic+ in Legion I could just grab a few guild or friends and run some keys that were at a suitable level for our skill. It was challenging, but still a fun activity where you could hop in and get a few runs down. They were also actual dungeons, lots of mobs to aoe, large interesting environments and so on.

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Criterion caters to a small niche while anyone could jump into Mythic+ because it scaled in difficulty.

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And it will doubtless be an even smaller niche.

For all its reputation, Mythic+ meanwhile is, in fact, one of the easiest endgame things to get into even later on in a season: the scaling difficulty makes it much easier to get your feet wet (and encourage more gun-shy friends and guild mates to give it a try, because in most seasons the so called "+2" simply adds the timer and Fortified/Tyrannical weekly mechanic and otherwise is just as chill as the standard Mythic difficulty normally is). Then there is the key mechanic, which means that even the newest M+ participant has something to put on the line ("my key" tends to fill groups pretty fast, even if you would struggle to get an invite otherwise, although RIP if you get stuck with a key for a dungeon you hate. Also RIP because you have to do that dungeon anyway because of the scoring mechanic everyone adheres to like religion, but "my key" tends to make up for that pretty often too anyways).

Compare FFXIV's community mindset where you are expected to FOMO rush any remotely challenging content, otherwise the playerbase bifurcates into people that mostly won't give you the time of day till you clear it on somebody else's time, and folks that either have two left feet or, more often, are simply not interested in even attempting hard mode content, leaving latecomers more or less at the bottom of a ladder that no longer has bottom rungs.

Also unlike Mythic+ (and WoW pugging in general) where the leader usually gets some cred just from being willing to step up and lead, FFXIV's culture has a habit of treating the leader as just another member of the community (to the point that PF leaders often don't even get to make decisions about strategies etc. - that was decided at data center level in the early weeks and is expected to be adhered to, even if the strategy is clearly stercus canis as our Garlean friends would say), so if you didn't get the exp during the socially expected window, even putting yourself out there as a lead is of only minimal effectiveness ...

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They missed the mark entirely.

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Hopefully. There is that twinge of fear that despite the record number of new players, the Savage raider contingent is in fact "the mark" at this point in FFXIV's life cycle.

EX is the stepping stone for Savage.

If you can do Endwalker's 4th Extreme, you can easily do P5-7S.
The entire thing is just a memory game. Bash your head against it until you understand what each mechanic does and you move instinctively.

The gap between Normal mode and Extreme is vastly bigger for most of the playerbase than from Extreme to Savage for those that clear Exs.

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Originally Posted by ThaCa

The gap between Normal mode and Extreme is vastly bigger for most of the playerbase than from Extreme to Savage for those that clear Exs.

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normally i would agree, but with how forgiving endwalker EX1 and EX2 are I think the implication is they are 100% stylized as stepping stones.

The only stepping stone I could really think of is to make dungeons with boss fights that are exactly like Coincounter was in Aurum Vale. Fights like that remove the telegraphs, but there is no enrage or anything like that. There are only 4 mechanics. It was a stepping stone of what an extreme trial is.

A fight like that forces you to either learn what the casts do instead of just moving out of orange, or to get hit by everything and probably die if the tank or healer doesn't save you. It doesn't prevent the other 3 from clearing it and is likely to motivate some players to start learning to remember what casts do and where to stand, something that is standard in extreme, savage and ultimate content.