Criterion Dungeons are great, but the entire system misses the mark.

After playing through the variant and criterion dungeons, I found the content to be very refreshing. Yes, I enjoyed the clue system and how everything leads to all the different endings in Variant. I liked the Criterion dungeon even more. I liked how I have to plan mitigation on fights, and dungeon bosses actually feel great and it was a fresh breath of air.

However, one thing I felt I had to say is this: I raid Savage. I have the luxury of being able to clear this content in a reasonable time, with extra gear that players who do not raid Savage may not have the opportunity to. These dungeons have the potential of teaching would-be end-game content players of how to approach raiding in general. However, the difficulty of the normal mode is set to basically be what it would be in Savage, and Savage is just the original but with a global enrage timer and harsher death penalties. This means that the people that would definitely benefit from having a 4-man endgame content the most (aka players who are trying to learn their role better and only having normal trials/raids). Moreover, I do also have a gear advantage because I cleared Savage, a fresh player would only have some pieces of tome gear, and new players to the system? Just fresh crafted!

In case I did not actually make myself clear, Criterion dungeons (normal that is, Savage is at the perfectly correct spot) are designed for the completely wrong reason. It should very firstly help players who are not comfortable with 8 man high-end content get into these high-end content (because a smaller group is just easier to manage), not a second piece of endgame content that high-end content players already can enjoy very well in. It also gives players who are hestitant on going into savage raiding (especially because fresh players today get shunned as they have no gear) a secondary way of progression, while also allowing players in general to also gear up alt classes to have fun and more importantly, help the newer/weaker players progress into high-end content.

Of course, I give YoshiP the benefit of the doubt. I don't think they had prepared an armor set for Criterion dungeons and it may not be in their first intention to do so, but it is very clear that the first iteration is VERY good. Just tone the normal difficulty down just a bit closer to EX since it is currently harder than EX, keep the Savage the same and give it replayable value by rewarding gear/glam on top of what is already provided.

Unfortunately, I believe they gave up on the idea of attempting to make midcore content years ago and just defaulted to savage-styled 4m for Criterion. They have never been able to successfully bridge the gap between extreme and savage and criterion just proves that fact even further.

This will likely persist for all other criterion dungeons as well, so I don't expect it to change. I genuinely believe they are comfortable with the skill gap as it is and prefer the "jump into savage and fake it till you make it" approach that everyone is so accustomed to.

Don't forget the Variant version. I've only done it solo but it's an excellent solo challenge. It took me some wipes to learn the mechanics in some routes and it's a way to build some confidence before progressing to the Criterion ones.

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Originally Posted by TheSankaku

After playing through the variant and criterion dungeons, I found the content to be very refreshing. Yes, I enjoyed the clue system and how everything leads to all the different endings in Variant. I liked the Criterion dungeon even more. I liked how I have to plan mitigation on fights, and dungeon bosses actually feel great and it was a fresh breath of air.

However, one thing I felt I had to say is this: I raid Savage. I have the luxury of being able to clear this content in a reasonable time, with extra gear that players who do not raid Savage may not have the opportunity to. These dungeons have the potential of teaching would-be end-game content players of how to approach raiding in general. However, the difficulty of the normal mode is set to basically be what it would be in Savage, and Savage is just the original but with a global enrage timer and harsher death penalties. This means that the people that would definitely benefit from having a 4-man endgame content the most (aka players who are trying to learn their role better and only having normal trials/raids). Moreover, I do also have a gear advantage because I cleared Savage, a fresh player would only have some pieces of tome gear, and new players to the system? Just fresh crafted!

In case I did not actually make myself clear, Criterion dungeons (normal that is, Savage is at the perfectly correct spot) are designed for the completely wrong reason. It should very firstly help players who are not comfortable with 8 man high-end content get into these high-end content (because a smaller group is just easier to manage), not a second piece of endgame content that high-end content players already can enjoy very well in. It also gives players who are hestitant on going into savage raiding (especially because fresh players today get shunned as they have no gear) a secondary way of progression, while also allowing players in general to also gear up alt classes to have fun and more importantly, help the newer/weaker players progress into high-end content.

Of course, I give YoshiP the benefit of the doubt. I don't think they had prepared an armor set for Criterion dungeons and it may not be in their first intention to do so, but it is very clear that the first iteration is VERY good. Just tone the normal difficulty down just a bit closer to EX since it is currently harder than EX, keep the Savage the same and give it replayable value by rewarding gear/glam on top of what is already provided.

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I think new players to savage being shunned is a bit of a stretch considering casual & midcore fresh prog groups are still being formed. That really only matters in hardcore groups from my experience while the others are willing to take on fresh faces (midcore tending to want their members to at least have their rotation down well). Just saying as someone who's bounced between different levels of statics across different periods of when tiers were relevant.

I will give it to you though that I wish they switched it up more for the Savage version, like with different mechs than normal Criterion.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Don't forget the Variant version. I've only done it solo but it's an excellent solo challenge. It took me some wipes to learn the mechanics in some routes and it's a way to build some confidence before progressing to the Criterion ones.

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The difficulty gap between Variant and Criterion is too big, Variant is your generic normal mode face-roll dungeon (and as a result solo is a joke for tanks like WAR) while Criterion is harder than first savage floors. Everybody expected that Criterion will be more akin to Extreme but seems its not, like OP said its effectively something else for savage raiders to.

Everybody thought it would be like Extreme because Savage was above it. I think they would've actually used the term if they meant it to be that kind of jump in difficulty.

I think they left armor out for a couple of reasons. This is something new they're trying and they didn't want to accidentally pull people out of the savage tier to farm this instead. If they let you trade tokens for something like savage books, they would most likely lock down the content for weekly clears.

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Originally Posted by Somnolence

The difficulty gap between Variant and Criterion is too big, Variant is your generic normal mode face-roll dungeon (and as a result solo is a joke for tanks like WAR) while Criterion is harder than first savage floors. Everybody expected that Criterion will be more akin to Extreme but seems its not, like OP said its effectively something else for savage raiders to.

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To add to a response to the post you quoted:
Don't forget variant being "a good challenging content solo" is a pointless argument. Most of the difficulty in savage isn't your ability to avoid mechanics. It's coordination with your team. No solo run is going to help you learn that.

Pugging with three randoms in bits of Tome gear vs going in with friends in Savage gear and raid markers is like playing a totally different game.

Criterion dungeons are not fit for purpose in the Group Finder.

Which is a shame but as other posters have said, this is not mid-core content... there is no 'hard' dungeon content, nor will there ever be... just a frustrating boss gauntlet that needs preparation.

I admit that I had hoped the first Criterion dungeon was more mid-core level than what it is right now.

Something along the lines of OG unnerfed Diabolos Hollow, Shinryu, Thunder God Cid or Ultima; The High Seraph.

I think the system hits the mark perfectly, just not the mark you personally wished it would hit. They've said from the beginning that Criterion dungeons are meant precisely for people who want more challenging 4-man content. The intention behind it was never to be a stepping-stone to 8-man raiding. It's designed for exactly the people who don't want to do 8-man raids, but want something more difficult than what was currently offered.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

It's designed for exactly the people who don't want to do 8-man raids, but want something more difficult than what was currently offered.

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I keep hearing about these supposed people, but I've never seen or met any in-game in like 6 years of playing the game and teaching people how to raid. It must be an unbelievably niche group of people. People who are interested in a challenge will seek it out, whether its 8 man or 4 man.

I do however know a ton of casual players who were hoping for some midcore content that would prime them for Savage; Most of them couldn't get past the first boss of criterion and quit out of frustration.

We can argue all day whether it fulfilled the developers vision or not, but clearly that vision wasn't in line with what many people seemed to hope for.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

I keep hearing about these supposed people, but I've never seen or met any in-game in like 6 years of playing the game and teaching people how to raid. It must be an unbelievably niche group of people. People who are interested in a challenge will seek it out, whether its 8 man or 4 man.

I do however know a ton of casual players who were hoping for some midcore content that would prime them for Savage; Most of them couldn't get past the first boss of criterion and quit out of frustration.

We can argue all day whether it fulfilled the developers vision or not, but clearly that vision wasn't in line with what many people seemed to hope for.

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One of those players right here. Being provided with a 4-man alternative with similar rewards would result in me walking away from 8-man content almost immediately. The nightmare that is gearing through PF is largely my only recourse at the moment, as I've not enough free time to dedicate to being part of a static. But grabbing three other people to hit up some challenging dungeons? Very doable even on a schedule as hectic as mine. Kinda pointless if they give lame or no rewards and require gear from the very content I'm wishing for an alternative to, though.

Unfortunately for myself and many others in this boat, SE does not seem to have any plans at this time to introduce the M+ analogue so many of us were hoping Criterion could be. It is instead just another challenge mode with rewards that offer no tangible benefit. Which, hey, that's fine for players that are into it, but I don't think it's unreasonable for people to want some kind of payout other than some cosmetics for completing the content.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

I think the system hits the mark perfectly, just not the mark you personally wished it would hit. They've said from the beginning that Criterion dungeons are meant precisely for people who want more challenging 4-man content. The intention behind it was never to be a stepping-stone to 8-man raiding. It's designed for exactly the people who don't want to do 8-man raids, but want something more difficult than what was currently offered.

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Only thing I can offer here is, due to the way rewards are structured in the game as a whole, one practically needs to run the 8 man raids to be ready for Criterion. In a lot of ways, Criterion fits a similar niche to Ultimate, especially the savage variant of it where it becomes an endurance gauntlet that is balanced around BiS.

In the spirit of that, it will be probably a little while yet before people avoiding or uninterested in 8 man raids can really start going to town on this content, though I don't doubt Criterion NM is doable without it.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

I keep hearing about these supposed people, but I've never seen or met any in-game in like 6 years of playing the game and teaching people how to raid. It must be an unbelievably niche group of people. People who are interested in a challenge will seek it out, whether its 8 man or 4 man.

I do however know a ton of casual players who were hoping for some midcore content that would prime them for Savage; Most of them couldn't get past the first boss of criterion and quit out of frustration.

We can argue all day whether it fulfilled the developers vision or not, but clearly that vision wasn't in line with what many people seemed to hope for.

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At this point, Savage Floors 1-3 are the midcore to prepare a player for the soft-hardcore of Floor 4 and the true hardcore of Current Ultimate. If there's a stepping stone to Savage 1-3, it'd be Current EX. Beyond that though, and especially due to each fight being a unique beast, it's difficult to design a "truly midcore experience," and I personally never expected Criterion Dungeon to be that. I'm mildly surprised Criterion NM is the beast that it is, but my understanding of what the content was is close to what it IS nonetheless.

IMO, the only thing that can prepare you for Savage is Savage; the real difficulty of the content being "getting a group together of like skill and goals."

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Everybody thought it would be like Extreme because Savage was above it. I think they would've actually used the term if they meant it to be that kind of jump in difficulty.

I think they left armor out for a couple of reasons. This is something new they're trying and they didn't want to accidentally pull people out of the savage tier to farm this instead. If they let you trade tokens for something like savage books, they would most likely lock down the content for weekly clears.

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I don't see how adding 620 or even 625 gear to Criterion Dungeons would be that much of an issue. It would never replace savage as long as it doesn't reward 630 gear with perfect substats, worst case you would maybe use a ring from it on tanks and healers.

It would just be another option to gear alt jobs to a reasonable level or even main jobs for people who don't do savage in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

I don't see how adding 620 or even 625 gear to Criterion Dungeons would be that much of an issue. It would never replace savage as long as it doesn't reward 630 gear with perfect substats, worst case you would maybe use a ring from it on tanks and healers.

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The easiest thing to do would be to have it drop upgrade materials for the tome gear. That way there's no need to design new equipment and the content suddenly has actual meaning. Maybe throw in something down the line for the relic weapons in there, presumably about the time they overtake the raid weapons and become BiS.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

I don't see how adding 620 or even 625 gear to Criterion Dungeons would be that much of an issue. It would never replace savage as long as it doesn't reward 630 gear with perfect substats, worst case you would maybe use a ring from it on tanks and healers.

It would just be another option to gear alt jobs to a reasonable level or even main jobs for people who don't do savage in the first place.

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620 already exists on the tome vendor. We don't need more redundant sets of gear like that. When 6.3 hits, we'll have the crafted upgrade to that level and easier upgrades for the tome gear.

All they had to do to make mid-core content was remove the telegraphs of most the boss moves and give less reaction time. We all know what the colors on the barrels mean after a run of Variant. We should all know what the various colors of the mouse boss mean after one run. Add a color to the mouse and the barrels (just for example) and remove the telegraph and subtract 1-2 seconds from the cast time. Bam - midcore. You have to know what each mechanic is with less handholding, but a little more wiggle room than savage content.

I think variant hit the mark for "something new and different." Criterion should have just scaled to group size with less room for error and they'd have midcore content unique to the game.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

620 already exists on the tome vendor. We don't need more redundant sets of gear like that. When 6.3 hits, we'll have the crafted upgrade to that level and easier upgrades for the tome gear.

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Except tome gear is not "another option to gear alt jobs" it is the same restricted currency gear it has always been and 1 of the only 2 options.

If I wanted to gear a healer right now I would need 3315 (or 2820 depending on either a high piety or low piety set) tomestones and that is with access to savage gear reducing the tomestone items I need down to 7 (or 6) from 10 which requires another 7-8 weekly resets.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

620 already exists on the tome vendor. We don't need more redundant sets of gear like that. When 6.3 hits, we'll have the crafted upgrade to that level and easier upgrades for the tome gear.

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The new crafted gear in 6.3 will be for DoH/DoL. The next crafted DoW/DoM sets won't be until 6.4.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Except tome gear is not "another option to gear alt jobs" it is the same restricted currency gear it has always been and 1 of the only 2 options.

If I wanted to gear a healer right now I would need 3315 (or 2820 depending on either a high piety or low piety set) tomestones and that is with access to savage gear reducing the tomestone items I need down to 7 (or 6) from 10 which requires another 7-8 weekly resets.

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Alt jobs aren't intended to be geared in BiS, nor do they need to be. Don't forget that SE considers Alliance raids the main way to gear alt jobs (why we had that Need/Greed drama back in Stormblood). When Myths of the Realm returns in 6.3, the new gear will be ilvl 620.

If someone can clear Savage with their main job in 610 gear, they can clear as a healer in 610 gear as well. That's not hard to get between Normal Abyssos and crafted.

A lot of content creators have pointed out the real problem when it comes to healers in PF - party leaders are setting the ilvl requirements too high. Players don't need to be able to get gear faster. They need to use better sense when recruiting for their parties.

Criterion begs the question: who is this content designed for?

Why is the "middle difficulty" version so hard? It's tuned for Savage gear, with both Selkie and Zombie being harder than 4/5 of the current savage bosses, dissuading casual players from participating.

Why does it not drop weekly 620/625 gear or twines/glazes? This would give it purpose as a way to gear up extra jobs - or even an alternative path of gearing to those who only want to play with a small group of friends and not a full static. The rewards are insanely lacking (and almost insulting) and do not incentivize clearing more than once. All the savage raiders I know, including myself, have cleared at least the "middle difficulty" and don't have any reason to go back in. Criterion is effectively dead content the second you clear.

The casuals don't want to do it because it's too hard for them. The savage raiders don't want to do it because there is no point to. It is great content, but they need to seriously reconsider the reward structure and the absolutely insane difficulty curve.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

The new crafted gear in 6.3 will be for DoH/DoL. The next crafted DoW/DoM sets won't be until 6.4.


Alt jobs aren't intended to be geared in BiS, nor do they need to be. Don't forget that SE considers Alliance raids the main way to gear alt jobs (why we had that Need/Greed drama back in Stormblood). When Myths of the Realm returns in 6.3, the new gear will be ilvl 620.

If someone can clear Savage with their main job in 610 gear, they can clear as a healer in 610 gear as well. That's not hard to get between Normal Abyssos and crafted.

A lot of content creators have pointed out the real problem when it comes to healers in PF - party leaders are setting the ilvl requirements too high. Players don't need to be able to get gear faster. They need to use better sense when recruiting for their parties.

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Content creators can talk all day for all I care, but the reality of PF is that you have no idea what quality of player is joining your party. So of course you go for an ilvl requirement that is higher than the minimum to make it more likely to clear even with subpar players.

But the ilvl requirements in party finder are completely irrelevant in this case. Sure, you don't "NEED" better gear to clear savage but what am I really going to bring into a fight, my 630 BiS geared job (assuming I had BiS gear) or my job in 610 crafted gear that barely fulfills the minimum requirement? I think the answer is obvious and, as said so many times before, it goes against the whole "play everything on one character" mantra. I am committed to whichever job I managed to gear up if I don't want to make it unnecessarily harder on 7 other people.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

I keep hearing about these supposed people, but I've never seen or met any in-game in like 6 years of playing the game and teaching people how to raid. It must be an unbelievably niche group of people. People who are interested in a challenge will seek it out, whether its 8 man or 4 man.

I do however know a ton of casual players who were hoping for some midcore content that would prime them for Savage; Most of them couldn't get past the first boss of criterion and quit out of frustration.

We can argue all day whether it fulfilled the developers vision or not, but clearly that vision wasn't in line with what many people seemed to hope for.

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This is my experience this week as well. I was hoping for something along the lines of slightly more challenging dungeons where maybe you couldn't pull wall to wall and healers had to actually heal etc.

I feel like this misses the mark for MANY people, including myself.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

If someone can clear Savage with their main job in 610 gear, they can clear as a healer in 610 gear as well. That's not hard to get between Normal Abyssos and crafted.

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Honestly I don't care if I can clear it in 610 on an alt. If my main was 630 and I've already cleared the content multiple times, it just feels bad downgrading 20ilv to play an alt job. It's reclears, I don't like the feeling I'm the wet noodle of the group while the rest are churning out dps in BiS.

If I wanted the challenge, I'd go min ilv. Sometimes we do in our static. Good times. But for picking up an alt for a change on reclears I just like to be geared. Purely preference, there's no "I should find it just as fun to go in with bad gear". Fun is subjective so that's my opinion.

Party leaders setting high requirements is fine. They just want to clear. They set the requirements to the average gear a player would have on a dedicated main. They don't want extra hard Savage mode. The reason there aren't many low ilv requirement challenge groups or min ilv groups is simply because it's not popular. The average player doesn't enjoy it. Savage is challenging enough and it's fun to earn nice gear and be rewarded with a slightly easier time against bosses.

Looking through this thread after I left it, and I have seen many different opinions on this. I felt like I need to address some of the points that should be brought up.

1) Even though I think that the content is too hard, I do agree that if they made some of the harder mechanics a little simpler or more visible the fight will be a lot more accessible to the players going towards Extreme. Some of the mechs are perfectly fine, it is just the outliers that skew the content straight into Savage.

2) I do think that the first iteration of Criterion is effectively a test to see how we feel about the content. It is okay to air out that it is not rewarding.

3) A few posts here highlight the crux of the problem: too difficult for casuals to try, too unrewarding for the hardcore's to return and help newer players or even reclear for self bragging rights.

4) I think many of you havent experienced this, but try to PF on a fresh alt character with fresh 610 gear on week 8. Almost no one will take you past P5S unless they know who you are. This is the gearing problem I think the game has, which stems from the "main only mentality" that PF would naturally have due to lack of access to gear. Having a hard but additional way to get additional resources and gear is huge.

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Originally Posted by TheSankaku

4) I think many of you havent experienced this, but try to PF on a fresh alt character with fresh 610 gear on week 8. Almost no one will take you past P5S unless they know who you are. This is the gearing problem I think the game has, which stems from the "main only mentality" that PF would naturally have due to lack of access to gear. Having a hard but additional way to get additional resources and gear is huge.

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Many NA PF recruiters are not very competent at setting them up so a lot of parties either set the default for it (605) or no item level at all. The smart ones set a higher item level so they are almost guaranteed high DPS, enough to withstand multiple deaths and mistakes.

Personally, I just set 610 for the first two floors of any savage tier, because I don't care too much if it's someone's second week and they are in crafted gear. But they should at least be in crafted gear. 600 and 605 is lazy.

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Originally Posted by TheSankaku

3) A few posts here highlight the crux of the problem: too difficult for casuals to try, too unrewarding for the hardcore's to return and help newer players or even reclear for self bragging rights.

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I agree, it's disappointing that Criterion Savage ended up just being "Criterion but no deaths allowed".

Having three difficulty levels of the dungeon was a great opportunity to have the middle level be comparable to EX fights, something you could realistically learn with random people. Instead we got 1 very casual mode, and 2 savage+ modes.