Which melee DPS can keep itself alive the most?

Whether it's self healing, self mitigation, etc. Which melee DPS is the best for surviving solo?

I believe monk unless im forgetting something XD. Has the normal bloodbath/Second wind healing options. Monk has a lot of GCD speed so probably gets the most out of bloodbath compared to the other melees. Then you have riddle of earth which is the best melee mitigation.

Dragoon :)

Monk. 6.0 it could have been Reaper with the HoT.

Monk has the 20% mitigation.

It's gotta be MNK. FoW+blood bath is basically a regen. Give that to a job that also does really good damage, and it will most certainly keep them alive longer than most

My Reaper has no problems with content and stays alive.

Probly monk they have almost tank level mitigation with riddle of earth

All the jobs have the two shared self healing skills, but of the job specific abilities, I'd have to say between monk or reaper. If arcane crest was still 100 potency then definitely reaper, but they nerfed that to 50. Monks 3 stacks of riddle of earth on a relatively short cooldown is pretty wild. The stacks are a hold over for when it used to give an additional effect of ignoring positionals and I'll be shocked if they still have the 3 stacks in 7.0.

Reaper + Dragoon cause of Bloodbath plus higher armor class is tied for 2nd...

1st place I'd say goes to Monk for literally all the reasons Tom mentioned.

Dragoon not only has Bloodbath and Second Wind, but it also has more overall health and Life Surge absorbs a portion of damage dealt as HP, so if you use it on your most powerful attacks it will be a good heal.

The one that does the mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Dragoon not only has Bloodbath and Second Wind, but it also has more overall health and Life Surge absorbs a portion of damage dealt as HP, so if you use it on your most powerful attacks it will be a good heal.

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Literally all of the melee dps have bloodbath and second wind....

Monk has the highest eHP of any melee DPS job. Riddle of Earth has a ridiculous amount of HP value. In savage raid content, or really any content, Monks are typically the lowest damage taken of all party members by far if Riddle of Earth is used properly. Mitigation is equivalent to healing in that it completely negates a % of damage you take. So, it is always effective healing, as opposed to normal healing skills that could result in an overheal. For example, Life Surge on Dragoon is needed within the rotation and should never be used for survival, which means it frequently overheals and results in no additional survivability.

Not to mention Monk played at its best historically deals nearly the highest personal DPS in the game (currently behind BLM and SAM only), which means Bloodbath is far more effective, particularly during its burst.

Sort of hard to properly utilize, but Mantra is utility no other melee DPS provides for healing, too. The 10% healing increase is small but I have seen cases where it has actually prevented deaths during savage prog by making shields slightly stronger, when health gets dropped to quadruple digits or lower from AOE or other things.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Literally all of the melee dps have bloodbath and second wind....

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Yes, but not 2 charges of Life Surge and better health.

If i were to rank each one it would be like this

1. RPR (AC is a TBN with a HOT with BB that works on almost everything in their kit also a buff and debuff to get more out of your healing)
2. MNK (Got buffs to help with healing even though Mantra doesnt work with BB it does work with Second Wind, RoE is strong and sustainable but no shield so behind to RPR on single target)
3. SAM (play it like WAR and use BB with setsu has buffs as well but when you dont have any setsu or ogi you pretty much NIN in healing though they do have Third Eye to help)
4. DRG & NIN (DRG is great for AOE healing but single is very low incomparison to the others and NIN)
(NIN has good single since they have a min TBN but BB doesnt work with ninjutsu other then shuriken and bushin doesn't work with it too making their big hits not able to heal them but they are faster then DRG so single target isn't too bad)

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Yes, but not 2 charges of Life Surge and better health.

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DRG does not have "better health" than other melee DPS (it literally shares 1:1 gear with RPR for that matter which means it has identical main stats). Life Surge results in 0 effective healing if your HP is full. On top of that, the heal from Life Surge is terrible to the degree of it being almost cosmetic at this point. Life Surge is likely the next skill to get pruned since it's typically regarded as a bloat skill these days.

All of that is without mentioning the fact that it hurts a lot worse to use Life Surge for healing than if you were using it correctly within your rotation for the DPS gain...

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Originally Posted by YojimboM

DRG does not have "better health" than other melee DPS (it literally shares 1:1 gear with RPR for that matter which means it has identical main stats). Life Surge results in 0 effective healing if your HP is full. On top of that, the heal from Life Surge is terrible to the degree of it being almost cosmetic at this point. Life Surge is likely the next skill to get pruned since it's typically regarded as a bloat skill these days.

All of that is without mentioning the fact that it hurts a lot worse to use Life Surge for healing than if you were using it correctly within your rotation for the DPS gain...

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When I say it has better health, I mean it has the highest health even if you compared all the melee jobs without gear on. It's true that Reaper shares the same base health as Dragoon though.

It probably is Monk, even though the other four can kite with ranged attacks and jump away in a pinch.

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Originally Posted by Vatom

If i were to rank each one it would be like this

1. RPR (AC is a TBN with a HOT with BB that works on almost everything in their kit also a buff and debuff to get more out of your healing)

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Every melee DPS has Bloodbath, but many of Reaper's strongest skills don't actually benefit from it (Communio is a spell, Gluttony, Unveiled Gibbot, etc, are all abilities). It has no special advantages with Bloodbath.

Arcane Circle is weaker than Riddle of Earth on Monk. The shield is only 10% of your maximum HP. The HoT is only 250 potency in total (50 potency for 15 seconds, which is 5 ticks) and it can't crit heal. Second Wind is 500 potency and CAN crit heal for reference on how weak the HoT is. The strength of Arcane Circle comes from the fact it effects the entire party which is a strong net amount of healing, it's a very weak skill in solo play but was strong enough in raids that it warranted a nerf.

Theorycrafting examples on why it's weaker if you care: The reason Riddle of Earth is stronger is because it provides 20% flat damage mitigation for up to 10 seconds with no limiting factors, unlike Arcane Circle which has a fixed shield amount of 10% of your maximum HP and a HoT that does not work immediately, so it can be entirely ineffective as overhealing if your healers already topped you off before it expired. In a real scenario, say a raid AOE occurs, and deals 60,000 damage at base (this is a reasonable amount for a savage-level raid AOE more or less). Arcane Circle would prevent ~7000 damage out of that as shield mitigation, and heal you for around 4200 HP, which is maybe 11,000 effective HP value to be loose with the numbers at maximum, and you'd take the rest of the ~49,000 damage from the AOE. This is not factoring in that the mitigation might be as low as only the 7000 HP shield if your healers healed you before the HoT could work. Riddle of Earth would fully prevent 12,000 damage instead with 48,000 damage taken because it is a flat 20% mitigation immediately, and it continues to work mitigating for the full duration so it can result in even more value. Riddle of Earth scales with the amount of damage you take, because it is a %-based mitigation, so a stronger amount of damage would result in even more value, assuming it's survivable, on top of stacking with other mitigation skills. In a worst case scenario situation where an amount of damage might even one-shot you, you have more lenience with Riddle of Earth since it is more effective on higher amounts of damage. In situations where many small amounts of damage occur that add up, Riddle of Earth is also still more effective, because it is again a 20% fixed mitigation with no stipulations, while Arcane Circle is still shackled to its max HP value shield and the requirement of the shield breaking on top of that which is another potential issue.

NIN and RPR are probably more or less equally survivable, since they both suffer the issue of some of their strongest skills not working with Bloodbath (NIN has a much higher skillspeed and auto-attack speed while it has fewer skills that benefit), but NIN has a 20% max HP shield rather than a 10% max HP shield. Shadeshift is better than Arcane Circle for personal mitigation because it's simply a stronger version of Arcane Circle that lasts much longer (20 second shield vs. 5 second), so not only does it prevent more damage but it won't fall off before it can be fully broken if you mistime it.

SAM has the worst personal mitigation of any melee DPS. It just doesn't really have anything anymore besides Third Eye and Third Eye sucks. Its Bloodbath healing is great during its burst, but it's not reliable since the rest of the rotation is relatively low potency.

DRG's just pretty terrible in terms of survivability. At least it doesn't have the lowest magic defense of any job anymore, though. Its Bloodbath healing is probably better than NIN's at least?

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

When I say it has better health, I mean it has the highest health even if you compared all the melee jobs without gear on. It's true that Reaper shares the same base health as Dragoon though.

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Having ~600 extra HP base at 90 isn't what I'd consider some kind of "advantage" exactly. That's less than 1% of current melee DPS max HP. Maybe around .7% more HP than the other non-Maiming jobs at maximum ilvl. It's more of a flavor thing in the same way that Life Surge still heals but its main purpose is for the automatic crit for DPS purposes.

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Originally Posted by YojimboM

All of that is without mentioning the fact that it hurts a lot worse to use Life Surge for healing than if you were using it correctly within your rotation for the DPS gain...

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The question of the topic wasn't about whether their self sustain options are dps minus to use improperly - the question is which melee dps can keep itself alive the most when playing solo, content that by nature, will matter much less about playing optimally rotation wise. Which yes, Life Surge is an incredibly strong infusion of HP when used with your strongest potency skills with the added bonus of being able to stack 2 charges of it.

Also, the heal from life surge is hardly 'almost cosmetic'. Looking at Whoop's first clear of P8s on week 1, he had about 70k HP, and it healed about 4k on a non-burst phase heaven's thrust, a little over 5% of his total HP. For contrast, a SAM would have to get hit by an attack over 40k damage in order for third eye to match it, or a MNK would have to get hit by at least 20k damage during RoE for them to match it. That's also non Litany/DS/Lance charge, with those buffs factored in Life surge was healing Whoops closer to 8k damage, more than Arcane Crest shields for.

Also the maiming sets do in fact have better HP - you can verify this trivially easy by looking at the BiS sets for each. Now that being said, it is only 700 Hp difference, but it is still a positive for RPR / DRG nonetheless. Also another factor to keep in mind is that the maiming set all pieces combined has about 700 more physical defense than the striking does, which translates to an extra 3-4% passive physical damage reduction, meaning Riddle of Earth's effective gains are reduced further comparatively.

As far as the topic, which melee can keep itself alive is dependent heavily on context:



MNK has an extremely beefy 20% mitigation on Riddle of Earth, but if its just only ever fighting a single enemy that deals relatively low damage over a long period of time but would be guaranteed to kill the MNK with enough time, Riddle of Earth's effectiveness falls off the face of the earth compared to direct healing, since % mitigators more shine in high damage or rapid damage instances. 20% off an enemy hitting you for 2-3k damage per hit is basically useless compared to a RPR shield blocking 7k HP within that same span. MNK however, does get the benefit of a very meaty bloodbath if it lines up with their burst.

RPR's shield provides a flat 7k-ish barrier each use which makes them incredibly powerful against single targets or low incoming damage scenarios.

SAM's third eye is basically a non-factor since it only mitigates a single hit, SAM however does capitalize on bloodbath super well due to how strong their upfront potencies on their combo strings are, along with extremely high damage potential during their burst windows due to auto CRT Midare/Onigikiri

DRG gets life surge as an additional self heal with the bonus of 2-charges on top of it, leading to a lot of extra healing throughput compared to the others.

NIN is arguably the worst. I think part of its burst is technically magic damage which doesn't work with bloodbath, along with its barrier being once every two minutes compared to the other job's much lower CDs.

I'd say overall, RPR is the most versatile at keeping itself alive. RPR's high combo potencies along with Enshroud burst synergies well with bloodbath, and Arcane Circle is a meaty 7k-ish barrier every 30s with a possible 250 potency worth of healing afterward. MNK would keep itself alive longest in crowds or in high damage scenarios due to % mitigators working the best with high amounts of incoming damage. SAM & DRG would both work best in slow war of attrition middle tier damage scenario where direct healing dwarfs both barriers and % mitigators. NIN is basically bottom regardless of situation.

I wish they'd make Bloodbath just apply to all damage dealt in general because it leaves NIN in an awkward spot compared to the other melee due to so much of its kit dealing magical damage.

I'd argue DRG is still in a worse spot then it due to the fact that Life Surge is a DPS cooldown first and foremost so you're not at the leisure of being able to use it when it'll actually help keep you alive if you're optimizing.

If you needed to keep yourself alive that much that you'd already used Bloodbath and Second Wind, optimizing would probably be the least of your worries, because the situation is probably quite bad with healers and tanks dead.

This was a great demonstration of the power of Dragoon's health and defense https://youtu.be/zLkc7wWQEy4?t=617

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Originally Posted by YojimboM

Every melee DPS has Bloodbath, but many of Reaper's strongest skills don't actually benefit from it (Communio is a spell, Gluttony, Unveiled Gibbot, etc, are all abilities). It has no special advantages with Bloodbath.

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Originally Posted by Vatom

almost everything

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Did i really need to quote myself

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Originally Posted by YojimboM

Arcane Circle is weaker than Riddle of Earth on Monk. The shield is only 10% of your maximum HP. The HoT is only 250 potency in total (50 potency for 15 seconds, which is 5 ticks) and it can't crit heal.

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Take note of this we will comeback to is

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Originally Posted by YojimboM

Second Wind is 500 potency and CAN crit heal for reference on how weak the HoT is.

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What did SW have to do with anything, I can crit on everyone also if your banking on it criting to prove a point I dont think we are in the same conversation.

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Originally Posted by YojimboM

so not only does it prevent more damage but it won't fall off before it can be fully broken if you mistime it.

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Skill problem not what were talking about

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Originally Posted by YojimboM

SAM has the worst personal mitigation of any melee DPS. It just doesn't really have anything anymore besides Third Eye and Third Eye sucks. Its Bloodbath healing is great during its burst, but it's not reliable since the rest of the rotation is relatively low potency.

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its not a RoE or AC but it does what is needed reduce a big hit SAMs sustain comes from being able to get your help back to full very fast meaning I kill you before you can kill me

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Originally Posted by YojimboM

DRG's just pretty terrible in terms of survivability. At least it doesn't have the lowest magic defense of any job anymore, though. Its Bloodbath healing is probably better than NIN's at least?

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After remembering that they have 2 life surge and high armor I have to place them above NIN and fighting with SAM now I do apologize to the DRG mains

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Originally Posted by Vatom

If i were to rank each one it would be like this

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It was my opinion don't jump down my throat

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Originally Posted by YojimboM

The reason Riddle of Earth is stronger is because it provides 20% flat damage mitigation for up to 10 seconds with no limiting factors, unlike Arcane Circle which has a fixed shield amount of 10% of your maximum HP and a HoT that does not work immediately, so it can be entirely ineffective as overhealing if your healers already topped you off before it expired.

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Shields are good for single hits mit great for multi
The guy ask about solo not raids or anything where someone can give you a hot
also the only time its bad to be overhealing is when your not taking DMG when your solo your always taking DMG also if its overhealing it means I took no DMG
Mit your still taking DMG doesn't matter

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Originally Posted by YojimboM

The shield is only 10% of your maximum HP. The HoT is only 250 potency in total (50 potency for 15 seconds, which is 5 ticks)

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Originally Posted by YojimboM

deals 60,000 damage at base,, Arcane Circle would prevent ~7000 damage out of that as shield mitigation, and heal you for around 4200 HP, which is maybe 11,000 effective HP value to be loose with the numbers at maximum, and you'd take the rest of the ~49,000 damage from the AOE.

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You can get a min 1k of healing per tic from AC so 5k thats not including DET
50pot 2k STR = 1k if your not touching 2k IDK what gear your rocking but then again this is at 90 if you want when your lower LVL I can give the excuse that it doesn't downscale well but 60k isn't lvl 30 combat

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Originally Posted by YojimboM

Riddle of Earth would fully prevent 12,000 damage instead with 48,000 damage taken because it is a flat 20% mitigation immediately, and it continues to work mitigating for the full duration so it can result in even more value. ,, In a worst case scenario situation where an amount of damage might even one-shot you, you have more lenience with Riddle of Earth since it is more effective on higher amounts of damage.

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I guess you weren't taught the difference between Shields, heals and Mit during a tank buster check out Xeno I not your google. Also if its a hit that I need 20% mit to survive feint... done last 10s and I will still be healing from the Hot as its going. Also I have a solid 2-3% mit that never goes away so I think it will be fine

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Originally Posted by YojimboM

In situations where many small amounts of damage occur that add up, Riddle of Earth is also still more effective, because it is again a 20% fixed mitigation with no stipulations

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Already said Mit better in Multi so not going to go crazy but the benifit of AC is that when its on I'm not taking DMG making BB help me gain my hp pool allowing me to reset better then a mit with a regen when it pops further aiding in that

All in all I think they are pretty much equal I just think having a ability that keeps my hp going denies my death alot more often

Assuming solo means true solo:
RPR if you can break the shield in your solo content, MNK tied with RPR, I think Mantra works on BB and Second Wind, on top of Riddle of Earth is 20% damage reduction which is insane.
NIN really good too, 20% shield plus NIN burst makes solo content die quick. and SAM defensive will always proc the free Kenki in solo.
Unless you're doing some sort of high level solo raiding old content just bursting things quick is the best defensive, so NIN, SAM the best at dumping a trillion potency in a short amount of time.

If you mean solo as in pf healers not healing you:
Everyone has bloodbath and second wind, everyone in theory heals the same from bloodbath and second wind over the course of a fight.
Extra defensive passive stats are on the level of racial stat insignificance between the melees.
DRG has no active defensives whatsoever.
MNK has Riddle of Earth for some reason has 3 charges of 20% less dmg taken that lasts for 10 seconds. 30 sec cooldown.
MNK also has Mantra which increases hp regen via healing actions by 10% for self and party 15 sec duration, 90 sec cooldown.
SAM has Third Eye, 10% less dmg taken for only 4 seconds but only 15 sec cooldown, and also buffs dps if you get hit while it's active.
NIN has Shade Shift, 20% of max hp shield for 20 sec. 2 min CD.
RPR has Arcane Crest, 10% of max hp shield to the reaper for 5 seconds, if it breaks applies a 250 potency heal over time to the entire raid, only 30 seconds.

So, MNK>>RPR>SAM>NIN

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Originally Posted by Awarewolf

Whether it's self healing, self mitigation, etc. Which melee DPS is the best for surviving solo?

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Warrior

/10char

Monk... played that job since HW was the new thing...

The one that can keep itself alive best is the one that fools around the least. ;)