SCH lacks a single target mitigation ability

As a Scholar main, I really enjoy the overall changes of SCH in EW. Now in the new savage tier, we all notice how heavy the tank buster damage can be, as they also come with heavy bleed damage. I'm pretty sure a lot of other SCH main may feel like they lack of a single target mitigation ability, when WHM, AST, and SGE all have single target mitigation abilities.

WHM and AST get Aquaveil and Exaltation respectively at level 86, which are both a 10% damage mitigation on single target (with Exaltation being a healing ability as well). SGE also gets Taurochole at level 62, which is a 10% mitigation with 700 healing potency on single target. In comparison, SCH gets Excogitation at level 62, which is only a healing ability with 800 potency.

Since it would not make sense to give Excogitation 10% damage mitigation like SGE's Taurochole (as Excogitation last for 45 sec if not detonated), I have 2 possible solutions in terms of giving SCH a single target mitigation:

1. Protraction: give it an additional 10% damage mitigation on single target. This would align with WHM's Aquaveil and AST's Exaltation in which all 3 are learnt at level 86. At the same time, SGE still has the shortest cooldowns of a single target mitigation among all 4 healers, making it still comparable with SCH.

2. Fey Union: give it a 10% damage mitigation when the fairy is tethering a target. Currently, many SCH players feel like Fey Union is a bit underwhelming, as you cannot accumulate fairy gauge during dissipation, and you cannot use Fey Union during dissipation or when Seraph is summoned. Giving Fey Union a damage mitigation might sounds a bit too powerful, but I think the limitation of when you cannot use Fey Union or accumulate fairy gauge makes it more balanced.

I'm curious about what other SCH mains or healers in general think of my idea. Please let me know :D

Edit: I see some comments thought I want to replace Protraction's benefits. What I intended was to give it an additional 10% damage mitigation.

SCH main here. I think recitation should make Adlo an instant cast. When a tankbuster shows up I barely have enough time to put a shield on the tank without wasting a swiftcast. The other healers get an instant shield even the non-shield healers get one. Having it tied to another ability would make it different enough from the other healers. Using protraction > recitation > swiftcast > adlo > deployment tactics all for one spell is kind of ridiculous even for an OP super party shield. If recitation made adlo instant that would at least take away the need to use swiftcast to keep up dps or dodge an aoe or keeping up with the tank while doing a big pull.

Honestly I’m fine with protraction in its current form as a mitigation tool, temporary 10% health boost is basically the equivalent of a 10% shield and it makes subsequent healing if needed stronger as well as an extra benefit

SCH already dominates the other 3 in shielding and mitigation on the AOE front that it doesn’t really need much more, SCH is already too strong as it is

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Originally Posted by KilledByKangaroo

I think recitation should make Adlo an instant cast. When a tankbuster shows up I barely have enough time to put a shield on the tank without wasting a swiftcast.

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Why would you even waste Recitation for an Adlo on the tank when you could just use it on Excogitation?

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Why would you even waste Recitation for an Adlo on the tank when you could just use it on Excogitation?

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Multiple reasons, savage tankbusters can be a lot less risky with critlo, you can deploy that critlo before the tank gets hit for a subsequent raidwide, for some mechanics taking zero damage can nullify the subsequent DOT, if you have other healing buffs like natures minne or krasis a critlo can absorb more HP than critcog restores etc

The only downside is adlo needs a GCD

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Multiple reasons, savage tankbusters can be a lot less risky with critlo, you can deploy that critlo before the tank gets hit for a subsequent raidwide, for some mechanics taking zero damage can nullify the subsequent DOT, if you have other healing buffs like natures minne or krasis a critlo can absorb more HP than critcog restores etc

The only downside is adlo needs a GCD

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Point taken, although I don't think you can avoid a DOT with critlo in content where that DOT is actually dangerous.

We're probably also not talking about savage mechanics in this case as they mention big pulls at the end of the post.

Sacred Soil is still viable on ST. Especially for a tank eating a heavy TB + bleed.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Sacred Soil is still viable on ST. Especially for a tank eating a heavy TB + bleed.

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This.
Sacred Soil is 10% mit and a 6*100 potency regen. It's especially valuable on double tankbusters, moreso now that SE slapped a bleed on them. It costs an AF stack but you get far more for your 100 potency loss than if you'd use a plain Excog or even Lustrate. The only thing is that it needs timing (and put your tanks on a leash) so you don't lack mitigation for an aoe that absolutely needs Soil.
But the gaps between busters and aoes are either fairly short so you can catch both or so far apart that you have it up again - if you need it because no point in slapping Soil on every wet noodle aoe.
And in dungeon pulls it's a no-brainer. Just throw Soil on every pull.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

This.
Sacred Soil is 10% mit and a 6*100 potency regen. It's especially valuable on double tankbusters, moreso now that SE slapped a bleed on them. It costs an AF stack but you get far more for your 100 potency loss than if you'd use a plain Excog or even Lustrate. The only thing is that it needs timing (and put your tanks on a leash) so you don't lack mitigation for an aoe that absolutely needs Soil.
But the gaps between busters and aoes are either fairly short so you can catch both or so far apart that you have it up again - if you need it because no point in slapping Soil on every wet noodle aoe.
And in dungeon pulls it's a no-brainer. Just throw Soil on every pull.

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And the post above:
I really wonder how many people don‘t use soil.
I suck at sch but i nnow soil is really really good.
I also throw asylum at tanks only sometimes.

Aka: please use sacred soil more, Schs out there

I think we need to give healers more unique tools with the same parity. I don't think we should seek to homogenize them further.
Protraction exists as unique ability that functions similarly. Why change that?

If anything, I'd say Protraction doesn't last long enough. A max HP boost has the unique quality of effectively being a refreshable barrier, but it's hard to really take advantage of that in a 10 second window. If that means it needs an increased cooldown than that would be fine, I think. I also feel like it would be fitting to have it be affected by Deployment Tactics. I still think DT feels really wasted being a whole button exclusively for one purpose that doesn't actually get used by good SCH players in most content.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Honestly I’m fine with protraction in its current form as a mitigation tool, temporary 10% health boost is basically the equivalent of a 10% shield and it makes subsequent healing if needed stronger as well as an extra benefit

SCH already dominates the other 3 in shielding and mitigation on the AOE front that it doesn’t really need much more, SCH is already too strong as it is

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The buff to sage holos which gives migi 10% + 300 pot shield makes sages aoe shields not as crummy as it use to be anymore a zoe physis +e prog with holos/panhi/hami which all stacks =good party shielding/migi + healing boot which seem more powerful now imo than crit/dt spread alco. E diag if crit with zoe is potential a stronger single shield than crit alco. sage win in single powerful shield. Sch wins in aoe but again with buff to holos thats barely a huge difference now. Though deep down I see the major fix was simply just make E prog be 200 potency and cut the 360% of heal restore to about 130 or something... low potency=bad heals +shields, that mess happen with 5.0 noct ast and they had to change the potency back to 200 and cut that 250% back to its 100 something. Ast kept their potencies on their intersect/+ netrual (dirunal) which can be stacked using aspect netrua benefic/helios with intersect... so its really only WHM give poor migitation with only aqua and no shields period. ast and sage has good shields and migi.

Yes, I want SCH buffs. Please give SCH buffs for once T_T

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Originally Posted by HyonaCookie

Yes, I want SCH buffs. Please give SCH buffs for once T_T

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It's funny, ironic, and sad how no matter how much they gut SCH, it continues to be the the top performing healer regardless of how much its gameplay declines.

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

The buff to sage holos which gives migi 10% + 300 pot shield makes sages aoe shields not as crummy as it use to be anymore a zoe physis +e prog with holos/panhi/hami which all stacks =good party shielding/migi + healing boot which seem more powerful now imo than crit/dt spread alco. E diag if crit with zoe is potential a stronger single shield than crit alco. sage win in single powerful shield. Sch wins in aoe but again with buff to holos thats barely a huge difference now. Though deep down I see the major fix was simply just make E prog be 200 potency and cut the 360% of heal restore to about 130 or something... low potency=bad heals +shields, that mess happen with 5.0 noct ast and they had to change the potency back to 200 and cut that 250% back to its 100 something. Ast kept their potencies on their intersect/+ netrual (dirunal) which can be stacked using aspect netrua benefic/helios with intersect... so its really only WHM give poor migitation with only aqua and no shields period. ast and sage has good shields and migi.

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Still that line of thinking is basically “if I use every single buff SGE has it just exceeds a SCH putting in basically no effort with critlo” and then the SCH can buff critlo 40% by itself and also allows for single target healing up buffs to benefit the party as a whole and one of its healing up buffs is also mitigation

SCH still wins handily in the shielding department but at least SGE isn’t a liability in that department anymore

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

It's funny, ironic, and sad how no matter how much they gut SCH, it continues to be the the top performing healer regardless of how much its gameplay declines.

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Whoever decided that a 10% up buff to the most broken stat in the game that the SCH has to put literally zero effort into pressing was a good idea leading to SCH being meta from 2.0 to current with only half a patch in 5.1 just shows that SCH will never not be meta no matter how bad it feels to play

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Originally Posted by RamenJD

[...] I'm pretty sure a lot of other SCH main may feel like they lack of a single target mitigation ability, when WHM, AST, and SGE all have single target mitigation abilities.

WHM and AST get Aquaveil and Exaltation respectively at level 86, which are both a 10% damage mitigation on single target (with Exaltation being a healing ability as well). SGE also gets Taurochole at level 62, which is a 10% mitigation with 700 healing potency on single target. In comparison, SCH gets Excogitation at level 62, which is only a healing ability with 800 potency.

Since it would not make sense to give Excogitation 10% damage mitigation like SGE's Taurochole (as Excogitation last for 45 sec if not detonated), I have 2 possible solutions in terms of giving SCH a single target mitigation:

1. Protraction: give it an additional 10% damage mitigation on single target. This would align with WHM's Aquaveil and AST's Exaltation in which all 3 are learnt at level 86. [...]

2. Fey Union: give it a 10% damage mitigation when the fairy is tethering a target. Currently, many SCH players feel like Fey Union is a bit underwhelming, as you cannot accumulate fairy gauge during dissipation, and you cannot use Fey Union during dissipation or when Seraph is summoned. [...]

[...]

Edit: [...].

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So, let me see if I got it right: you want a SCH to get a damage reduction ability just like the other healers when Protraction is a +10% HP for the target, which is an equivalent to a damage reduction? In all fairness, it's true that the damage reduction lingers for 8s but yours heals + buffs HP + increases healing for 10s. If anything, this spell is quite well-equipped compared to the other two even if you need to throw an Adloquium to fully benefit from the healing+.
If anything, maybe WHM/SGE/AST need(s) a spell that increases damage/crit/dhit just like SCH's Chain Stratagem does? Or a Healing AoE that shields the whole party instead of just one (Divine Benison)? I mean, SCH's got two: Adloquium and Succor, then two other abilities that heal without mitigation (Indomitability & Fey Blessing); then WHMs have plenty of AoE Healing spells but only one individual shield-mitigating spell, how about we get Assize/Afflatus Rapture with mitigation as well?

I think they're fine as they are, of course there'll be changes and tweaks here and there, especially in new expansions, where we'll see these effects into new spells so they catch up and still keep their identity. You can't ask SE to create all healers with the EXACT same spells but learnt at different levels or with those effects embedded in X or Y spell...or else we'll end up with ONE healer regardless of which one you choose, bar those key elements that tell them apart (Fairy/Cards/Healing potency/Healing when attacking)

I mean if I am going to play SGE, I'm quite happy that SCH's Adloquium is vastly superior to my E. Diag/E. Prog. That just means if I team up with a SCH, I have even less of a reason to waste my GCDs on barriers.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I mean if I am going to play SGE, I'm quite happy that SCH's Adloquium is vastly superior to my E. Diag/E. Prog. That just means if I team up with a SCH, I have even less of a reason to waste my GCDs on barriers.

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Addersting generation not tied to Eukrasian Diagnosis when? :'(

Can we talk about how protraction can still just kill players with improper timing x.x

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Originally Posted by Zolvolt

Can we talk about how protraction can still just kill players with improper timing x.x

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Do you mean Expedient? Like making someone sprint to their doom? Or is there something about Protraction that kills people that I don't know about?

If you are talking about Expedient, the pros outweigh the cons. Just because something has the potential to backfire does not make it a bad tool, nor does it mean it should be removed. 1 bad Rescue on occasion should not take away from the otherwise useful and engaging 100 times it's otherwise beneficial, for example.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Do you mean Expedient? Like making someone sprint to their doom? Or is there something about Protraction that kills people that I don't know about?

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I believe the problem is what happens when a "heal to/for 100% of your HP" debuff snapshots under Protraction, and then Protraction falls off.

Yeah it's just encounter specific, any fights with a white hole or charybdis/1 hp mechanic.

The same thing happens with WAR if they use Thrill of Battle during those kinds of mechanics.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Do you mean Expedient? Like making someone sprint to their doom? Or is there something about Protraction that kills people that I don't know about?

If you are talking about Expedient, the pros outweigh the cons. Just because something has the potential to backfire does not make it a bad tool, nor does it mean it should be removed. 1 bad Rescue on occasion should not take away from the otherwise useful and engaging 100 times it's otherwise beneficial, for example.

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Protraction's HP buff doesn't mix well with some damage attacks or server ticks. For example, on p8s door boss I can live the poison from snake1 or snake2 with no mitigation, full hp. But if I put protraction on myself and it falls off before the damage applies then the debuff will kill me despite still being full HP. Its a little wonky.

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Originally Posted by Zolvolt

Protraction's HP buff doesn't mix well with some damage attacks or server ticks. For example, on p8s door boss I can live the poison from snake1 or snake2 with no mitigation, full hp. But if I put protraction on myself and it falls off before the damage applies then the debuff will kill me despite still being full HP. Its a little wonky.

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That's not a job balance issue, so protraction itself is not the problem. In that case, I think the best way to retify that would be for those mechanics to calculate max HP of original HP (after accounting for % stat increases for joining a party) instead of max HP of buffs. Otherwise, if your food buff falls off midway, the snapshot issue should have a similar problem.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

That's not a job balance issue

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Not entirely, it can be a coding issue that is part of the balance of a job. Lets say you use living dead and your HP is exactly 10k in the normal case. If you now get 10% extra, it becomes 11k, and walking dead now triggers. If expedient ends, you have only 10k max. Lets say the 2nd healer uses benediction on you, effectively being that 100% heal. What happens?

If the game considers the value on start, you die.
If the game considers the value on end, you are safe

Since its not described when the value is decided, its guessing.

(and yes, this similar behaviour works acros many aspects. but this example is easier to follow due to its very slow progress in what happens)

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Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

Not entirely, it can be a coding issue that is part of the balance of a job. Lets say you use living dead and your HP is exactly 10k in the normal case. If you now get 10% extra, it becomes 11k, and walking dead now triggers. If expedient ends, you have only 10k max. Lets say the 2nd healer uses benediction on you, effectively being that 100% heal. What happens?

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From what I understand, Living dead only activates when you hit below 1 HP, not when you lose a certain amount of HP. Walking Dead will not trigger unless you drop below 1 HP, not when you reach 1 HP because a buff expired.
The reverse is also different - Walking dead only requires you to restore a certain amount of HP to get out of Walking dead, not reach a certain percentage of HP. Plus, the Cure Potency of Walking dead is pretty much good enough to prevent that from happening now, even if a healer benediction late, because the DRK can just attack and cover the difference if the Walking Dead debuff hasn't been removed.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Walking dead only requires you to restore a certain amount of HP to get out of Walking dead, not reach a certain percentage of HP.

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You have to be healed an ammount equal to your max hp, hence the max health is a factor. The issue is when this max health value is taken (which is mostly a coding thing as in most cases its simply not relevant as your max hp doesnt realy change as often).
And thats why i also used benediction, since if that is the only ability that was used, it does not provide any overhealing, causing the risk.

In actual gameplay its unlikely that you heal someone to full health in a single ability without him facing a few extra attacks. But if the risk exists, its good to know how it works.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

If anything, I'd say Protraction doesn't last long enough. A max HP boost has the unique quality of effectively being a refreshable barrier, but it's hard to really take advantage of that in a 10 second window. If that means it needs an increased cooldown than that would be fine, I think. I also feel like it would be fitting to have it be affected by Deployment Tactics. I still think DT feels really wasted being a whole button exclusively for one purpose that doesn't actually get used by good SCH players in most content.

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PVP version is interesting.
With a proper rework, it could spread protraction, adlo, excog (with a reduce effect) and chain or biolysis for the damaging part.

Deploying Protraction sounds really interesting and could make for some great combinations with the SCH's and co heal's toolkit, like using the 10% to survive an aoe and the heal increase for a stronger Seraph shield for the next one.
Giving DT more purpose in general would be welcome. As taurus said, it's a button a good SCH rarely uses outside of phase transitions when you don't have a target anyway. I can also imagine it being interesting for Aetherpact, it would give the Fey Gauge a better purpose. Bonus points for an animation that looks like I have my entire party on a leash.
Protraction, Chain, Excog, Aetherpact and with decreased effect if necessary but it would add some real decision-making to DT instead of marrying it to Adlo and nothing else. 2min cooldown with a 2nd charge would be fair imo. I dislike skills that are married to one specific skills in practice, Zoe is guilty of that as well.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

Deploying Protraction sounds really interesting and could make for some great combinations with the SCH's and co heal's toolkit, like using the 10% to survive an aoe and the heal increase for a stronger Seraph shield for the next one.
Giving DT more purpose in general would be welcome. As taurus said, it's a button a good SCH rarely uses outside of phase transitions when you don't have a target anyway. I can also imagine it being interesting for Aetherpact, it would give the Fey Gauge a better purpose. Bonus points for an animation that looks like I have my entire party on a leash.
Protraction, Chain, Excog, Aetherpact and with decreased effect if necessary but it would add some real decision-making to DT instead of marrying it to Adlo and nothing else. 2min cooldown with a 2nd charge would be fair imo. I dislike skills that are married to one specific skills in practice, Zoe is guilty of that as well.

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Personally, what I think could work really nicely would be to steal a little of new SMN's concepts of having a button that changes with your pet summons. Having Eos and Selene be different would be nice, but something that could add or take the place of that which the Scholar uses based on their pet could also help consolidate some of their bloat. SMN currently has Gemshine and Precious Brilliance. Perhaps SCH could have Feyshine and Lustrous Brilliance. On Eos, Feyshine is Protraction. On Selene, it's a revamped Eye for an Eye. Both can be spread by Deployment Tactics.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

This.
Sacred Soil is 10% mit and a 6*100 potency regen. It's especially valuable on double tankbusters, moreso now that SE slapped a bleed on them. It costs an AF stack but you get far more for your 100 potency loss than if you'd use a plain Excog or even Lustrate. The only thing is that it needs timing (and put your tanks on a leash) so you don't lack mitigation for an aoe that absolutely needs Soil.
But the gaps between busters and aoes are either fairly short so you can catch both or so far apart that you have it up again - if you need it because no point in slapping Soil on every wet noodle aoe.
And in dungeon pulls it's a no-brainer. Just throw Soil on every pull.

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This, I’ve found that soil is the answer (for me at least) on double buster mechs that require both tanks need some love, normally this with whatever my cohealer is using is all I’ve needed easily deal with any damage, it also if used at the right time will last for any subsequent raidwide for the party.

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Originally Posted by RamenJD

As a Scholar main, I really enjoy the overall changes of SCH in EW. Now in the new savage tier, we all notice how heavy the tank buster damage can be, as they also come with heavy bleed damage. I'm pretty sure a lot of other SCH main may feel like they lack of a single target mitigation ability, when WHM, AST, and SGE all have single target mitigation abilities.

WHM and AST get Aquaveil and Exaltation respectively at level 86, which are both a 10% damage mitigation on single target (with Exaltation being a healing ability as well). SGE also gets Taurochole at level 62, which is a 10% mitigation with 700 healing potency on single target. In comparison, SCH gets Excogitation at level 62, which is only a healing ability with 800 potency.

Edit: I see some comments thought I want to replace Protraction's benefits. What I intended was to give it an additional 10% damage mitigation.

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Aquaviel is 15% mitigation. Exaltation is 10% but has a heal.

Excogitation is 100 potency greater that Taurochole and has the unique trait of healing the target when they dip below 50% HP.

Protraction is already a single target mitigation tool, so your request is redundant.

Scholar's mitigation is actually so strong that it revealed major weaknesses in Sage during DSR. Sage received an additional shield on Holos because of how weak it's shielding capabilities were by comparison.

Protraction is perfectly fine in it's current state.

I main SCH. One of the main problems I have with the job is fey union. A single target, tethered regen isn’t good enough. If it gives an additional effect of dmg mitigation, I’ll be fine with that. It is a shield healer after all.