Why the nerf to p8s?

Let me start off by saying that I understand the HP Nerf in p8s is (assuming the patch notes are accurate) roughly only a 1% nerf. While this isn't the most massive of nerfs, it is still the first time since I started playing the game in Stormblood that I can remember them nerfing any content like this.


I don't really understand this nerf and its honestly a little upsetting to be. For the last 2 weeks I had been hearing about how the dps check in p8s was really tight and how a lot of players were struggling to clear it before enrage. For me, this was exciting news. My static doesn't have a ton of time to play each week so we were never going to reach p8s this soon, but I was still excited to have a legitimately difficult dps check.

Reasoning given for the nerf:
Under normal circumstances, the DPS of this team serves as a base for determining a boss HP value that results in clears as close to the time limit as possible. However, as extra time was dedicated to testing this battle, the team's overall performance proved to be higher than usual. As a result, the base values used for adjustments were too high, with final values roughly 1% higher than intended.

Translation:
Our testers played the fight a lot and got good at it, but we aren't going to give the player base that same opportunity.

Why are we, the players, not afforded the same opportunity as the testers? The fight being at its maximum difficulty would only serve to make completing it, and showing off the rewards for doing so, that much sweeter. I personally would love to bash my head into a fight over and over again until I get good enough to actually clear it rather than being given a non-optional handicap.

This also sets a precedent for the developers to start nerfing content if they believe the player base just simply isn't good enough (on average) to complete, even if completing the content has been proving to be possible with a wide range of jobs and party compositions and this worries me. I really hope that this is a one time thing.

Anyways, I don't really come to the forums often, and most likely won't come and check on this post but waking up to these patch notes made me a little perturbed.

I don't understand the nerfs either, the DPS check was tight and required meta teams during week one but as gear comes and the weeks pass it will become a non issue, it's way easier already and now we even have 3rd week gear.

Because they couldn't figure out how to fix the job balance in time

Because by "fixing" the job balance with a 2min burst window, they created the biggest overall imbalance since Heavensward.

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Originally Posted by Atreides

I don't understand the nerfs either, the DPS check was tight and required meta teams during week one but as gear comes and the weeks pass it will become a non issue, it's way easier already and now we even have 3rd week gear.

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In PF there's no guarantee any members of your group got loot in previous floor, so the overall ilvl increase week by week is much lower. This is probably the reason they still made the change.

I do agree that it does very little to fix the underlying issue of terrible job balance making meta comp much more valuable than they ever were.

The explanation more or less reads that when testing it internally for balancing, they did a little too throughout testing and became very good at the fight and then after that they balanced it for a group that's beaten it several times rather than a fresh group...

A bandaid fix to distract from the true scale of our job balance issues.

The issues in job balance have existed since p4s as has been stated. The only reason it really blew up now was because job balance issues become that much more in-focus when the damage check is tight.

So instead of addressing the job balance issues...they simply made the check easier. Why solve the problem when you can treat a symptom and call it good?

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Originally Posted by Last_Username

I understand the HP Nerf in p8s is (assuming the patch notes are accurate) roughly only a 1% nerf. While this isn't the most massive of nerfs,

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Oh my sweet summer child

They've moving away from difficult fight strictly based on DPS check because it's never fun. While full 8 members with 99 pink parse can still beat it, PF with random people won't have such luxury.
At least they didn't nerf any of the mechanics.

I think they should just ban the people who cleared p8s before the nerf. I think those people have cheated by doing something the devs deemed not possible (despite having done it themselves when 'testing').

They made the DPS check too tight for a last floor savage fight, maybe impossible depending on the team composition, and they are fixing it.
They made PLD and WAR too weak compared to other tanks, and they are fixing it.
This was necessary...

It does disappoint me just because I don't like the idea of content being nerfed. I like to think that however old content gets, we can go back and do it minimum item level and have a mostly similar experience except for stat and potency changes. Since midas they have not disappointed me in this way and left content untouched.

But personally, I don't find DPS checks fun, because usually it is others in the party underperforming and not having to deal with their performance issues and just doing the mechanics right myself makes me happy.

This is a pointless nerf because we have had weeks of tomestone gear now, but I suppose it could help for people who get in there without any tomestone gear or who do it minimum item level.

I don't think it sets a precedent, because they explained they set the DPS check higher than they would have in previous content because it was above their projections and the DPS check exceeded the projections of a lot of players as well.

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Originally Posted by Moshimoshikami

They made the DPS check too tight for a last floor savage fight, maybe impossible depending on the team composition, and they are fixing it.
They made PLD and WAR too weak compared to other tanks, and they are fixing it.
This was necessary...

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Only one of those was necessary. Comps with drk, gnb, double melee and no mch/rdm were not barred from clearing. The problem existed because of bad job balance. Fixing bad job balance does not involve lowering the dps check, that's just a bandaid fix.

Just gonna repost this here:
https://i.imgflip.com/6t7m8g.jpg

I'm meh on harsh dps checks, I rather the fight be harder, Dps checks should generally ensure People should know their rotations, dps checks should exist.

If you wanna make failing a mech punishing, you could generally make the damage down do more, You can argue Jobs with utility should be doing less dps while also wanting it to being able to clear with any (standard) comp.

Don't get me wrong the main issue right now is actual Job balancing, but I generally don't think DPS checks need to be harsh to make a fight harder, I think failing the mechs and making the fight in general be hard would help move people away from a DPS obsessed meta, but if jobs were more close to each other it wouldn't be a issue outside How BLM should always generally be significantly higher then the other two casters.

There are two sides to the balance, and they are adjusting both.
Overall, these are two steps in the right direction.

While I also don't think they should have changed it, I also don't think it matters all that much. The hard DPS check will just get surpassed as people get better gear anyway.

The fight itself hasn't changed, and neither did the damage he deals. If you want the genuine pre-nerf experience, then have you and the rest of your party manually wipe just before the enrage. :p

People should really stop blaming things to job balance. There is never going to be "perfect" balance in a game. Savage already got pushed 1 week, we got extra piece of gear, there is no DPS check until p8s. People even cheese the mechanics with tank lb3 and healer lb 3 starting from day 2 of release. But guess what?!!! People still can not clear it. Too many people do not do their rotation properly or do not even use pot or proper food and still clear savage. Or we can have 4+ death and still clear the fight. Tanks DPS is almost like a real DPS already, should nerf DRK and GNB instead of buff PLD and WAR. Savage supposed to be a non-casual content, but now it act like a casual content. Face with it, skill level of average player just really bad, but SE just can not say that way.

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Originally Posted by zabu

People should really stop blaming things to job balance. Savage already got pushed 1 week, we got extra piece of gear, there is no DPS check until p8s. People even cheese the mechanics with tank lb3 and healer lb 3 starting from day 2 of release. But guess what?!!! People still can not clear it. Too many people do not do their rotation properly or do not even use pot or proper food and still clear savage. Or we can have 4+ death and still clear the fight. Tanks DPS is almost like a real DPS already, should nerf DRK and GNB instead of buff PLD and WAR. Savage supposed to be a non-casual content, but now it act like a casual content. Face with it, skill level of average player just really bad, but SE just can not say that way.

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Aaaaaah all the paladin and warrior mains were actually just much better on dark knight and gunbreaker all along. Not even they themselves knew! /s

It's not a problem of average skill level when at the top level of each job there are massive differences in damage output. This has been obvious for anyone willing to use their eyes since the start of the expansion. A tight dps check is now forcing everyone to open their eyes.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Aaaaaah all the paladin and warrior mains were actually just much better on dark knight and gunbreaker all along. Not even they themselves knew! /s

It's not a problem of average skill level when at the top level of each job there are massive differences in damage output. This has been obvious for anyone willing to use their eyes since the start of the expansion. A tight dps check is now forcing everyone to open their eyes.

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That is why I said, should nerf GNB and DRK instead of buffing PLD and WAR. When they tune stuff, they wont just look at top tier player, they will consider average player as well. There is no such game that can have "perfect" job balance. There is always miss here and there.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I generally don't think DPS checks need to be harsh to make a fight harder, I think failing the mechs and making the fight in general be hard would help move people away from a DPS obsessed meta

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Had to stop at that bit. This is an MMO. People will never move away from being obsessed with DPS. People are obsessed with DPS even in normal content without an enrage. It's not like people tell healers to DPS in dungeons because of the off chance they'll become a world first racer whose DPS is required in the first week. They do it just because they are obsessed with DPS for the sake of it.

It's simple really.
This patch was a balance patch, they started with Warrior and Paladin buffs.
Then when they reached Machinist, they gave up (as usual) and just nerfed the fight that people had problems with.

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Originally Posted by Curisu

Because by "fixing" the job balance with a 2min burst window, they created the biggest overall imbalance since Heavensward.

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We're all "3 minute mages" now!

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Originally Posted by zabu

That is why I said, should nerf GNB and DRK instead of buffing PLD and WAR. When they tune stuff, they wont just look at top tier player, they will consider average player as well. There is no such game that can have "perfect" job balance. There is always miss here and there.

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So you agree that job balance is insuffiecent? It doesnt need to be perfect, it needs to be enough. Which it isnt right now. Also when it is mathematically impossible to hit the dps check with a "low damage group" then no amount of gitting gudder will help.

It sounds so weird to me to talk about this whole story of over-performing devs while they could just have improved caster and ranged DPS to a proper level.

Damn I feel bad for MCH. Hang tight guys.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Had to stop at that bit. This is an MMO. People will never move away from being obsessed with DPS. People are obsessed with DPS even in normal content without an enrage. It's not like people tell healers to DPS in dungeons because of the off chance they'll become a world first racer whose DPS is required in the first week. They do it just because they are obsessed with DPS for the sake of it.

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Comparing to other games that don't focus all jobs such as healers and tanks to do dps, Not saying a "dps meta" is a bad thing but I'd like it to be less purely about dps I wanna choose a tank because of their mitigations and party support not Does more damage so always the best pick, people complain about hominization but also Think every tank should deal around the same damage and have similar tanking cds because changing that would make one job better then the others, It leads to less varity when the only real concern is Dps.

I also don't think a fight that depends somewhat on good RNG at times because crit/DH can make a massive difference on if you clear is good for the game, Of course you need dps checks but they shouldn't be why the fight is hard, it becomes a point where you will only pick the best job with the best dps, which isn't fun, I don't think "really hard DPS checks" are healthy for fight design It's not good design to have every job do the same amount of damage, Casters are a good example of having a utility vs damage situation that I think makes the game interesting. But even now because damage is so important in that fight you Couldn't really use a red mage, And I think Red mage should be pretty low compared to Blm it makes no sense why casters should be close.

Because they just nonchalant told us we're bad and need help to clear.

i cleared p8s first week, in my opinion i think job is not balance
SE choosed the WORST way to fix this problem

like srsly SE what are you doing?
you guys don't buff these weak jobs. instead, you nerf boss hp?


that's so stupid SE


from now you don't have to worry about job balance
keep nerfing boss hp

btw you buff WAR and PLD but what about MCH?

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Originally Posted by Moshimoshikami

They made the DPS check too tight for a last floor savage fight, maybe impossible depending on the team composition, and they are fixing it.

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Bolding mine, because I think that right there is the reasoning. The dev team believes very strongly that every standard composition should be equally viable; whether or not they always achieve this (no), and whether or not this leads to job homogenization (possibly), we do know that's their stated intention. P8S was not viable with every standard party composition, which is something they almost certainly weren't going to let stand.

And if it was not viable because people were missing the DPS check by sub-1% values on some party comps even when playing near-perfectly, it was almost certainly easier to reduce the boss' hitpoints by 1% rather than to try to rebalance all the jobs in a hotfix patch. (Even if, arguably, the latter is the correct solution; it may be correct, but it was not going to be timely.)

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Originally Posted by AsakuraAsteria

btw you buff WAR and PLD but what about MCH?

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Being a MCH feels like being a Viera or Hroth atm xD
Asking for hats or at least decent DPS, maybe next expansion keep dreaming, change to another race or play BRD DNC :p

Could've achieved the same thing but better by just buffing the lowest performing jobs like our good friend MCH, but alas.

I just have some thoughts that I don't think warrant a whole new thread, nor do I feel particularly strong about the topic, since I don't do Savage that much, but just chiming in:

I believe they said they don't want Savage to be what it used to be during the days of Coils and Alexander, and that they wanted to make Savage more clearable by a larger amount of people, and having Ultimate become the hardest content to clear instead. Is this good or bad? I have no idea, I'm just throwing the thought out there as a possible explanation.

I also don't think they want P8S to become another Living Liquid or Manipulator situation. Not many people remember that, and it's not a one-to-one comparison but statics died to those fights.

Either way... just a few thoughts. Carry on.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

I just have some thoughts that I don't think warrant a whole new thread, nor do I feel particularly strong about the topic, since I don't do Savage that much, but just chiming in:

I believe they said they don't want Savage to be what it used to be during the days of Coils and Alexander, and that they wanted to make Savage more clearable by a larger amount of people, and having Ultimate become the hardest content to clear instead. Is this good or bad? I have no idea, I'm just throwing the thought out there as a possible explanation.

I also don't think they want P8S to become another Living Liquid or Manipulator situation. Not many people remember that, and it's not a one-to-one comparison but statics died to those fights.

Either way... just a few thoughts. Carry on.

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Everyone has different thought. But this is what my thought is...
I feel savage now is just like extreme mode. Take my p6s run for example in this week. I cleared with a bunch of ppl that i dont know with 10 deaths......
Not only like that, people are skipping mechanics with tank lb3 or healer lb3 in day 2 week 1 of the release. Then, what is the point of design the mechanics that get skipped?
This tier there is no DPS check until p8s. Because of no DPS check, when people hit the wall of p8s, people start complaining it is too hard. But guess what, I see people do not even know their DPS rotation well, or didnt even use mitigation in the correct spot (blame healer for not healing), I even see people do not use DPS potion or this tier's food and still clear the raid. People just keep complain about job balance by looking at data, but really there is no game that is perfect balance and instead of complaining think what can you do better as a player.
I personally feel they nerf p8s way too fast, savage is non-casual content according to SE, but i feel it is like casual content already.

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Originally Posted by zabu

People should really stop blaming things to job balance. There is never going to be "perfect" balance in a game. Savage already got pushed 1 week, we got extra piece of gear, there is no DPS check until p8s. People even cheese the mechanics with tank lb3 and healer lb 3 starting from day 2 of release. But guess what?!!! People still can not clear it. Too many people do not do their rotation properly or do not even use pot or proper food and still clear savage. Or we can have 4+ death and still clear the fight. Tanks DPS is almost like a real DPS already, should nerf DRK and GNB instead of buff PLD and WAR. Savage supposed to be a non-casual content, but now it act like a casual content. Face with it, skill level of average player just really bad, but SE just can not say that way.

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Because it IS job balance and making the excuse of "it will never be perfect" is a poor one at that. This is ok if tanks did like 10 to 50 dps from each other.

It took the devs this long to realize "oh snap, war can't do damage"? It took this long to be like "oh we made all tanks burst except pld?

War and pld were like 500 dps below. Thats not "oh they can't make things perfectly balanced" kind of thing. (Buff still not enough).

They clearly "recognize" that DHC on war is an issue, but they simply refuse to fix warrior. The whole reason for war's change in 4.2 was to NOT CARE ABOUT BUFFS. And it had to do more dps to compensate. The devs don't seem to understand the past.

Its not only damage, but utility. Holmgang is essentially useless with all the bleeds (Living Dead, too). 8 makes invuln essentially obsolete, yet didn't produce good timing on the third for cds in doorboss? It's like the devs don't play this game (clearly they don't).

Also, you are incorrect: there's a dps check in 7S. People struggled with it (and having any of the bad jobs didn't help.

Even if you claim people are bad, you balance the content around the average, not the cream of the crop. and even then, many PC players have "cheat codes" which helps them focus more on their rotation, while console gets left behind. It's more than that even. PC has more visibility, so certain "blindspots" in mechanics don't effect them like they do with console gamers. Why are they making mechs harder on console?

Also, devs make mistakes all the time. The fact that they were condescending by saying "we didn't realize we were too good". Theres no way if they were that good they'd miss imbalance this bad.

There are multiple things wrong with this tier.
The nerf isn't an actual nerf. That's their lazy "bandaid" to "balance" the jobs, bc they need more time.

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Originally Posted by millktea

Because it IS job balance and making the excuse of "it will never be perfect" is a poor one at that. This is ok if tanks did like 10 to 50 dps from each other.

It took the devs this long to realize "oh snap, war can't do damage"? It took this long to be like "oh we made all tanks burst except pld?

War and pld were like 500 dps below. Thats not "oh they can't make things perfectly balanced" kind of thing. (Buff still not enough).

They clearly "recognize" that DHC on war is an issue, but they simply refuse to fix warrior. The whole reason for war's change in 4.2 was to NOT CARE ABOUT BUFFS. And it had to do more dps to compensate. The devs don't seem to understand the past.

Its not only damage, but utility. Holmgang is essentially useless with all the bleeds (Living Dead, too). 8 makes invuln essentially obsolete, yet didn't produce good timing on the third for cds in doorboss? It's like the devs don't play this game (clearly they don't).

Also, you are incorrect: there's a dps check in 7S. People struggled with it (and having any of the bad jobs didn't help.

Even if you claim people are bad, you balance the content around the average, not the cream of the crop. and even then, many PC players have "cheat codes" which helps them focus more on their rotation, while console gets left behind. It's more than that even. PC has more visibility, so certain "blindspots" in mechanics don't effect them like they do with console gamers. Why are they making mechs harder on console?

Also, devs make mistakes all the time. The fact that they were condescending by saying "we didn't realize we were too good". Theres no way if they were that good they'd miss imbalance this bad.

There are multiple things wrong with this tier.
The nerf isn't an actual nerf. That's their lazy "bandaid" to "balance" the jobs, bc they need more time.

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They werent trying to be condescending, the wording on it made people easily believe that they were. Just like how easy it is to misinterpret intention based on the internet constantly. Im guilty of it and so is everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Wolwosh

Being a MCH feels like being a Viera or Hroth atm xD
Asking for hats or at least decent DPS, maybe next expansion keep dreaming, change to another race or play BRD DNC :p

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next expac is here and MCH is the worst dps again :)

I saw the title and thought I entered a timeslip.

How do people even find these threads to necro?

Its not that deep. They just want more people to clear the content as otherwise it looks bad on their data and public relations. Also since they actually designed the fight, they have more intimate knowledge on how to do it than the players do, which can get them carried away with it. And its not just exclusive to FFXIV, other mmorpgs have run into this problem where developers overtuned stuff.