So with the patch notes we see that the HP of the boss in the 8th circle has been reduced because the dev team "did so much better" than expected and that skill level with change experience. It made me wonder how many MCH have actually cleared 8cSavage. According to FFlogs, not a single MCH has cleared it. Not a single one. But they want to say that every job can clear all content. If not single person has cleared something in a specific job, and its a job that has a history of being underwhelming, maybe just maybe the problem is with the job's design, not the player base. It's just super frustrating.
6.21 notes/8th circle save/ mch
Printable View
-
09-13-2022, 01:01 PMWiccaP6.21 notes/8th circle save/ mch
-
09-13-2022, 01:06 PMWiccaP
It has been pointed out and I realize I was looking at the top 50 breakdown and not the overall breakdown.
-
09-13-2022, 01:16 PMHussain
44 mch clears
1059 dnc clears
balanced btw -
09-13-2022, 05:08 PMRandommobPerfectly balance. As all things should be - YoshiPQuote:
Originally Posted by Hussain
-
09-13-2022, 05:24 PMStasyaPlay bad you suck - YoshiPQuote:
Originally Posted by Randommob
-
09-13-2022, 07:02 PMKeichi
Maybe, because the people simply play less the mch.
-
09-13-2022, 11:47 PMRansuMCH isn't that popular and has a weird stigma. DNC basically brings massive raid buffs. The numbers make complete sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hussain
-
09-14-2022, 12:25 AMHussainis that why blm has more clears than rdm?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ransu
and why sam has more clears than mnk?
you see , people bring blm and sam cause they can actually do dmg even with 0 utility. mch doesn't -
09-14-2022, 08:30 AMSilly_RabbitGee i wonder why. Must be class fantasy that 20x more people like dancers more then gunners.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keichi
-
09-14-2022, 11:01 AMstevemaddenYeah, being worst in damage with ZERO party buffs. What a weird stigma people have...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ransu
It's almost like people treated DNC the same way at the beginning of the expansion when it did even less damage than MCH. Such a strange sitgma people have when a job is trash. I don't understand! Why aren't they more popular?! -
09-16-2022, 03:59 AMSnowVixa lot of hardcore statics will loot-feed a melee and have a dancer whose primary purpose is to feed that melee dance partner. has nothing to do with balance and everything to do with people being extremely sweatyQuote:
Originally Posted by Hussain
-
09-16-2022, 07:17 AMServerCollaps
When it comes to personal dps, mch is about 1500 dps ahead of bard and dancer, which is amazing in any other kind of content than 8+ people stuff. I dont know anyone that would pick bard or dancer over mch dps-wise when it comes to deep dungeons or any other kind of solo or light group content. Mch will most likely also be superior in the upcoming savage dungeons, because bard + dnc partybuffs will be worth much less. It might not be perfect when it comes to 8 ppl savage, but its still good enough to clear it without problems and it excels in literally any other kind of content.
-
09-16-2022, 07:30 AMSupersnow845The problem with that line of thinking is that the jobs are explicitly designed to be balanced for 8 man savage, not below and not above and they still can’t get the balance right, this endless pursuit of balance is why every job feels the same, why the healers can be played by a 3 year old and why we have a supposed “ranged tax”Quote:
Originally Posted by ServerCollaps
If they can’t even get the balance right for the one piece of content that they actually say they balance for then basically their entire design paradigm since ShB launched means less than nothing -
09-16-2022, 08:20 AMStasyaIt doesnt matter feed you mch gear or not, stop coping about "its just loot distribution bad".Quote:
Originally Posted by SnowVix
-
09-16-2022, 08:46 AMHousinginneedWhenever someone brings this up, I feel like they're not understanding the root issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by ServerCollaps
Balancing only is an issue on high-end content. Look at any competitive online gaming scene with pro gamers, every big game is balanced around the pro scene. Why? because WHO THE FK CARES ABOUT BALANCE IN BRONZE/SILVER.
You would never see any, ANY FORM OF COMPETITIVE GAME balance itself around "majority" of the playerbase rather than based on players who are at the highest of skill levels.
Same applies to FFXIV. Did you ever enter roulette dungeon and think "damn only if this guy did more damage" or "damn this content is hard to clear with our team comp"? no, because they're designed to be so damn easy.
Even when you run lvl 90 regular content, there is a HUGE disparity between individual players on the same job in terms of performance. Some people will pull 4-5k with a melee dps while others will pull 9k+ on same jobs, yes some of them are not even trying or even paying attentions but that's the fucking point, LOW END CONTENT IS SO EASY PEOPLE DONT EVEN PAY ATTENTION, why would anyone care about balance in these contents? -
09-19-2022, 03:22 PMDogempire
I honestly think the devs just don't like physical ranged, Machinist is the problem child but only because it doesn't have raid buffs to line up with the 120s burst window to boost its rdps, physical ranged as a whole is underperforming along with red mage, summoner, and to a minor degree reaper.
If they want to make the fights melee friendly that's fine, but you can't minimize downtime and then give them much higher damage to compensate for the fact they may need to drop 1 or 2 gcd's over the course of an 11 minute fight.
If anything recent raid design makes me think casters should have the highest damage output out of all the roles due the fact that melee has free movement around a massive hitbox almost the size of the entire arena, meanwhile any type of movement as a magic dps is penalized if you're being forced to move during a burst window, especially if that movement takes several gcds. -
09-19-2022, 04:49 PMCKNovelWhy are they doing it?Quote:
Originally Posted by SnowVix
A job just benefits better from extra gear.
A job benefits from this job benefitting the extra gear.
Current Dance Partner design allows a non-fed job to benefit from a fed job.
It's almost as if DNC item level is modified to get closer to its dance partner.
How is that not a design and balance issue? -
09-19-2022, 05:13 PMKalaam
I wonder how the balance would look like if damage buffs were scaling not on the target's damage/stats but the caster's. Like, for a random and likely terrible example, "5% of your DMG stat is added to everyone else in the party"
-
09-19-2022, 07:31 PMKeichi
Why should all things be balanced only for high end content and Pro player?
FF is not a competive game (it is only a "few' Player, who make savage).
Most people are only playing normal stuff (at last is it rare, that i see people with wearing savage stuff). So, it is logicaly, to focusing more on the normal stuff, like 4 man and 24 man dungeons.
Mch is creat for dungeon. Dnc and BRD are create for savage. That is a form of balance to. -
09-19-2022, 07:40 PMSupersnow845Well 50% of people at level 90 at least attempt savage so the playerbase for savage is 100% there and because normal content is so easy you can clear it with a zero DPS healer, a stance-less tank and 2 freestyle DPS, balance has to be based on something and it’s based on savageQuote:
Originally Posted by Keichi
MCH being “better” at dungeons isn’t intentional balance it’s simply the fact that raid buffs scale poorly in 4 man content -
09-19-2022, 08:29 PMKeichi
Ähm, when 50% of players are trying savage, how can than be 100% of all Player being doing savage?
And so easy isnt normal content.
Last week wiped one group multiple times by the second pandae ini, because one tank didnt wanted to do the instans anymore. And wasnt able to leave.
It come to wipes in normal content, when the Tank dont use stance.
My Partner and i had it many times, that the healer died and it would have come to a wipe, would the Paladin/warrior be able, to heal themself (whe need the free use of phönix feather, for the case, the healer dies).
It is true, that normal is lesser hard than savage. But, it is not so easy ( it need zo be easier, esspecial, when you do it daily).
But, it is simply because, this stuff is on "normal". And become with each week easier (because of higher ilvl).
Savage is simply hard mode (and a pain in the ...) and is even becoming easier with each week. Mch can wait, until the Ilvl is high enough, if they make to less dmg (and, who cares if the mch make lesser dmg, when the other make the balance, at the end is it only matter, if the content is cleared and he can attack the whole time, caster and meele can not do that). Why bothering with hard stuff, when you can have the same end result later, with easier content? -
09-19-2022, 08:44 PMSupersnow845I’m assuming English isn’t your first language because that’s a turn of phrase, “the playerbase is 100% there” is just an overly fancy way of saying “the playerbase of savage is big enough to support squares decision to balance around savage”Quote:
Originally Posted by Keichi
And wiping in normal mode doesn’t make it not easy, it’s either a mistake or someone who is just really bad, that still doesn’t change that content is Balanced around savage because it’s the only content that requires balancing, if classes are poorly balanced in savage they are poorly balanced. And you still still haven’t offered any rebuttal to the fact that “melee don’t have downtime this tier” or the fact that if casters and melee should both do more damage than the phys ranged why are the casters also doing such crap damage right now -
09-19-2022, 08:46 PMKeiisukeI care, and many others machinists as well. This job has been dragged through the mud for way too long. Sure the tiers will be easier with time since everyone will gear up, but you're only hiding balancing issue, you're not fixing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keichi
-
09-19-2022, 08:58 PMKeichi
Caster did crap dmg?
Arent they allways mid lvl in the statistics? How should the people even know, how much dmg they are doing (you need 3. party tool for it, and using it is risking a ban).
And ranger have a other advangte over meele (or fast attacking classes). They can have greater distance and can see more of the battlefield. That can help them to survive things. Where meele maybe didnt noticing it and dies.
At last is it for myself, that i survive avoidable things better with distance fighter, as the meele. With a meele is my mindset often only in attack mode and i stop to watch my surroundings (or the camera is to near, to notice things).
With caster and ranger is it other ways. I see more and notice more. Esspecial with the slower blm.
Dnc and BRD are probally good, as long as they have enough/good partner. The mch is coming better, the more people died and have the debuff (because he has the strongest dmg for his own, from the rangers).
More dmg is allways good. But i think, that it shoulnd come so close to caster. Or even to meele. -
09-19-2022, 09:06 PMSupersnow845SMN and RDM do around the same damage as the physical ranged and BLM is around the level of a very weak melee, casters being middle of the pack is ShB balanceQuote:
Originally Posted by Keichi
And if a ranged is far out for no reason they are just missing healing, I’m not single target healing you because you stood in narnia whatever your reasoning for standing there is, fact is there is really no valid reason for any class to be outside the boss hitbox unless a mechanic demands it another point against the ranged tax
DNC BRD RDM and SMN need to be doing around what RPR is doing now, MCH around the same maybe a bit higher towards DRG, BOM should be up with MNK -
09-19-2022, 09:37 PMRilifaneBut that's a you problem and isn't a valid argument for tax and class balance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keichi
The ironic thing is that you're making it harder to dodge things when standing far out. Any conal aoes are wider in the back while pointblanks generally only cover the hitbox ring. So you're better positioned at max melee and move out the few times you have to for spread mechanics than standing out and moving in for heals/ buffs.
You can even safely position at least 5, often even 6 people in melee range during spread. 1 inside the hitbox, rest spread around at max melee.
In any endgame content, the rule of thumb is "stay in unless you're forced out" - and you can also apply this to any other content. There is no benefit to staying far away, in most cases it's actually a detriment.
And now let me tell you the number of times you have to be outside of max melee range.
P5s: 5 times although a 6th time is adviseable during Double Rush unless you're really good at greeding that. And 4 of the 5 times are just for a quick puddle soak and only 4 of 8 move out, the 5th time is during a spread mechanic with limited space that only leaves one melee spot on each side.
P6s: 4 times, although 3 of them can in fact be solved with uptime strats that are fairly easy to pull off and only affects 2-4 people anyway. The 4th time you have an aoe around that's too large to fit more than 4 people at max melee, you can move out pretty late though.
P7s: the hitbox is the platform lol
So during all of those 10-11min fights 2-4 people need to move out for 1-2 GCDs between 0-5 times.
And now pray explain how that justifies a 10% gap even if you would run a theoretical 4 melee comp that would force some of them to disengange for some mechanics.
Meanwhile you have mechanics like Purgation where every caster is just royally screwed in addition to a bunch of other mechanics that require you to move at such specific times that you likely can't just slidecast it. Not even with the 1,5s casts healers have, like moving behind for Raging Claw from H2 position.