I really hate GNB with 3 carts and Double Down taking 2 carts

GNB at 90 just feels so clunky to me, and the way you have to optimize it now makes it feel like you're playing the job wrong. It felt a lot more smooth and buttery at 80, but what do you think? Should No Mercy get a extended duration trait at 90? Should there only be 2 ammo carts? Should Double Down only take 1? What do you want to see with GNB?

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Originally Posted by Mithron

GNB at 90 just feels so clunky to me, and the way you have to optimize it now makes it feel like you're playing the job wrong. It felt a lot more smooth and buttery at 80, but what do you think? Should No Mercy get a extended duration trait at 90? Should there only be 2 ammo carts? Should Double Down only take 1? What do you want to see with GNB?

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GNB is completely fine as it is, GNB already does a significant amount of damage it does NOT need it's burst window extended. Three cartridge management is actually pretty brain dead, means less burst strikes in your unbuffed phase, and Double Down costing 2 cartridges is fair for the amount of damage it does in a single hit, it's a thing called balance that other tanks also have to deal with.
If you go into a No Mercy window without three cartridges that's on the player failing, not the job, being bad design.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

GNB is completely fine as it is, GNB already does a significant amount of damage it does NOT need it's burst window extended. Three cartridge management is actually pretty brain dead, means less burst strikes in your unbuffed phase, and Double Down costing 2 cartridges is fair for the amount of damage it does in a single hit, it's a thing called balance that other tanks also have to deal with.
If you go into a No Mercy window without three cartridges that's on the player failing, not the job, being bad design.

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The class doing significant damage is not really a valid excuse for “double down basically ruined the no mercy window and destroyed GNB’s flow”, OP Is right and community sentiment agrees with him, the class does fill clunky and the burst is difficult to fit into the no mercy window and it basically removes GNB’s ability to use defensives in the burst window or makes it very difficult

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The class doing significant damage is not really a valid excuse for “double down basically ruined the no mercy window and destroyed GNB’s flow”, OP Is right and community sentiment agrees with him, the class does fill clunky and the burst is difficult to fit into the no mercy window and it basically removes GNB’s ability to use defensives in the burst window or makes it very difficult

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It is a valid excuse to deny a burst phase extension, if you read what I said. As for the flow, personally it's felt fine to me, only time it has been an issue, has been due to my own personal error playing it by overspending going into my burst, not because of the job's current design.
And it has and it hasn't, there is still weave slots available, more so than what DRK has available, and there is this simple thing that it's invaluable as a tank it's called planning ahead. Plan you mitigation ahead of tank busters and raid wides, suddenly you're issue with using mitigation becomes less of a problem. Even on PLD and WAR, if you don't plan ahead, you're gonna delay oGCD usage if you don't plan cooldowns properly.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

It is a valid excuse to deny a burst phase extension, if you read what I said. As for the flow, personally it's felt fine to me, only time it has been an issue, has been due to my own personal error playing it by overspending going into my burst, not because of the job's current design.
And it has and it hasn't, there is still weave slots available, more so than what DRK has available, and there is this simple thing that it's invaluable as a tank it's called planning ahead. Plan you mitigation ahead of tank busters and raid wides, suddenly you're issue with using mitigation becomes less of a problem. Even on PLD and WAR, if you don't plan ahead, you're gonna delay oGCD usage if you don't plan cooldowns properly.

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I'mma have to disagree with you on the flow of the job with Double Down.

Taking into about its burst from Shb adding Burst Strike + Hypervelocity feels like an extension to to the Gnashing Fang Combo. Double Down does not. I don't mind having a 2 cartridge spender. I mind having an ability I don't believe flows and adds on to a kit that I liked in a previous expansion. Because unless I'm reading my rotation wrong (and I could be cause once I got this ability I avoided GNB like the plague in 90 content) Double Down does not come at the end of the Gnashing Fang combo like I believe it arguably SHOULD. It feels SO WRONG where it is.

As someone who hasn't been optimizing my gameplay, I can say that double down is a bit odd to use, but I've looked at a few recent guides now that 6.2 has altered bloodfest and it all seems rather sound.

What exactly about double down is the problem? Is it the fact it's a gcd, thus leaving time between the next weave? That was my main issue, but if it's used generally around the beginning, there should still be plenty of oGCDs to use after it to fill the space and continue gnashing fang.

I just don't like where it IS in the GNB rotation. It disrupts the flow. I would prefer it to be at the end where it feels it belongs and/or straight up removed. Don't like the animation of it either. My lv70 rotation feels so much smoother than my lv90 one.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

I just don't like where it IS in the GNB rotation. It disrupts the flow. I would prefer it to be at the end where it feels it belongs and/or straight up removed. Don't like the animation of it either. My lv70 rotation feels so much smoother than my lv90 one.

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If you want Double Down to be the 4th hit of the cartridge combo you can just... use it as a 4th hit after the cartridge combo? There is literally nothing stopping you from doing that. It's not even a DPS loss for the vast majority of players. The only situation where it would be a loss are killtimes/phasing within the margin of a single GCD where using first Double Down two GCDs earlier can guarantee an extra use. But you know, your idea of rigid Double Down only makes this worse since you lose the flexibility and go from "I might get an extra use if I want to" to "I simply cannot get an extra use".

100% agree. I thought players were trippin about 90 GNB, but then I got it to 90 and well, I just refuse to play the job besides 70/80 content.

I really liked the class in 6.0 and 6.1, although I didn't get much opportunity to play it. In 5.x I found it a little too boring, and in 6.2 I feel the same way. I know they won't, but I'd like to see the 6.2 changes reverted and the class go back to 90s Bloodfest. It was really cool how the 90s offset forced you to actively manage your cartridges and approach every burst window ever-so-slightly differently. I think it's kind of soulless with 120s Bloodfest, but I wouldn't change anything about Double Down, No Mercy, or cartridge counts to compensate.

So I've been looking up videos and guides about current gnb since I'm currently moving away from my main SAM. I never looked up a guide or practiced anything about gnb before and generally made my own rotation by way of what felt comfortable to press in what order and majority of videos I watched thus far have basically stated gnb has no set rotation due to the way its cooldowns are, which sounds about right.

It is weird to me that folks throw double down and several other oGCDs between gnashing fang, delaying the majority of its continuation until the end.

So typically, when I hit No Mercy, I go sonic break-blasting zone-gnash1-cont-bow shock-gnash2-cont-rough divide-gnash3-cont-double down-rough divide-bloodfest-triple burst strike/hypervelocity

But I also noticed from the guides I've looked at, they typically start gnash with a single cartridge and then bloodfest. Something I'm trying to practice now that I've decided to switch mains, and it just feels awkward trying to fit all of that even though I'm at 2.43s

Anybody care to share if my burst is okay or not? I think the main issue I have is a weak opener since I never used tank for anything outside of normal msq content.

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

So I've been looking up videos and guides about current gnb since I'm currently moving away from my main SAM. I never looked up a guide or practiced anything about gnb before and generally made my own rotation by way of what felt comfortable to press in what order and majority of videos I watched thus far have basically stated gnb has no set rotation due to the way its cooldowns are, which sounds about right.

It is weird to me that folks throw double down and several other oGCDs between gnashing fang, delaying the majority of its continuation until the end.

So typically, when I hit No Mercy, I go sonic break-blasting zone-gnash1-cont-bow shock-gnash2-cont-rough divide-gnash3-cont-double down-rough divide-bloodfest-triple burst strike/hypervelocity

But I also noticed from the guides I've looked at, they typically start gnash with a single cartridge and then bloodfest. Something I'm trying to practice now that I've decided to switch mains, and it just feels awkward trying to fit all of that even though I'm at 2.43s

Anybody care to share if my burst is okay or not? I think the main issue I have is a weak opener since I never used tank for anything outside of normal msq content.

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https://i.imgur.com/DSeCELR.jpg


This is the old GnB sheet from before 6.2, with the changes to Bloodfest from 90 seconds to 2 minutes this will have changed slightly. You will no longer have any Bloodfest uses outside of your burst so there will be no Bloodfest in your 3 minute burst anymore but instead in your 2 minute, 4 minute, 6 minute, etc burst windows.

While GnB is quite flexible there are certain setups for your burst that you always want to perform.

You can adjust your rotation on a fight per fight basis to gain extra uses of your big hitters, but this is something more advanced and also heavily dependent on your party's killtime so you really shouldn't worry about it until the basic rotation has become muscle memory.

You generally always want to use Gnashing Fang, No Mercy and Bloodfest on cooldown to have them not drift out of party buffs, which is one of the reasons you usually Double Down early to empty your cartridges for Bloodfest.


As for your GCD, 2.43 should be fine. I personally think 2.40 feels the best but with the gear this raid tier the best we can get is unfortunately only 2.42 without losing out on damage. Anything 2.46 or faster should allow you to get the necessary 9 GCDs under No Mercy, anything slower than 2.46 and you will not be able to get those 9 GCDs. There will also be situations where your last Hypervelocity will simply fall out of No Mercy and there is nothing you can do about it.

Right, pressing No Mercy after starting Gnashing Fang feels wrong and makes me hate it so much. It's incredibly clunky. I also don't think it feels good to start Gnashing Fang then go immediately into Double Down and Sonic Break before finishing the rest of the combo, but oftentimes in pugs is necessary for aligning raid buffs. Not being able to fit every Hyperverlocity in No Mercy window is also clunky and shows changes should be made. Of course this is just my subjective personal opinion, but it makes GNB feel so much worse than it did at 80.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

https://i.imgur.com/DSeCELR.jpg


This is the old GnB sheet from before 6.2, with the changes to Bloodfest from 90 seconds to 2 minutes this will have changed slightly. You will no longer have any Bloodfest uses outside of your burst so there will be no Bloodfest in your 3 minute burst anymore but instead in your 2 minute, 4 minute, 6 minute, etc burst windows.

While GnB is quite flexible there are certain setups for your burst that you always want to perform.

You can adjust your rotation on a fight per fight basis to gain extra uses of your big hitters, but this is something more advanced and also heavily dependent on your party's killtime so you really shouldn't worry about it until the basic rotation has become muscle memory.

You generally always want to use Gnashing Fang, No Mercy and Bloodfest on cooldown to have them not drift out of party buffs, which is one of the reasons you usually Double Down early to empty your cartridges for Bloodfest.


As for your GCD, 2.43 should be fine. I personally think 2.40 feels the best but with the gear this raid tier the best we can get is unfortunately only 2.42 without losing out on damage. Anything 2.46 or faster should allow you to get the necessary 9 GCDs under No Mercy, anything slower than 2.46 and you will not be able to get those 9 GCDs. There will also be situations where your last Hypervelocity will simply fall out of No Mercy and there is nothing you can do about it.

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Mhm, that lines up with everything I'd been hearing, and yeah I actually went and found that image a month ago, but I hadn't made the decision to fully go gnb at that point. Now I have and nobody has made a similar chart for 6.2 specifically aside from maybe a few videos, which I did try to save for the sake of practice.

I whacked a striking dummy for about 10 minutes and it just feels clunky considering how I've played since unlocking the job. But I felt a similar clunkiness when I tried improving my opener for SAM, even if that came more naturally to me.

Thanks for the advice, I'll try and keep at it when next I log on.

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

Mhm, that lines up with everything I'd been hearing, and yeah I actually went and found that image a month ago, but I hadn't made the decision to fully go gnb at that point. Now I have and nobody has made a similar chart for 6.2 specifically aside from maybe a few videos, which I did try to save for the sake of practice.

I whacked a striking dummy for about 10 minutes and it just feels clunky considering how I've played since unlocking the job. But I felt a similar clunkiness when I tried improving my opener for SAM, even if that came more naturally to me.

Thanks for the advice, I'll try and keep at it when next I log on.

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Yeah as far as I know no chart exists for 6.2 yet, your best bet is to join the Balance Discord or regularly check here https://www.thebalanceffxiv.com/ for any updates.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

GNB is completely fine as it is, GNB already does a significant amount of damage it does NOT need it's burst window extended. Three cartridge management is actually pretty brain dead, means less burst strikes in your unbuffed phase, and Double Down costing 2 cartridges is fair for the amount of damage it does in a single hit, it's a thing called balance that other tanks also have to deal with.
If you go into a No Mercy window without three cartridges that's on the player failing, not the job, being bad design.

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? lower the damage increase to compensate the duration increase then?
you act like they'd up the duration with no reduction

Endwalker GNB is awesome. Rotation feels smooth as butter. Going back to the level 80 rotation when I get synced feels boring now.

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

? lower the damage increase to compensate the duration increase then?
you act like they'd up the duration with no reduction

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Honestly, I actually have 0 faith in SE ability to balance jobs this expansion, with the chasm in dps difference across all roles especially when ShB was so well balanced in comparison, so honestly if they took your idea, they'd still manage to buff GNB damage even more.

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Originally Posted by CidHeiral

Endwalker GNB is awesome. Rotation feels smooth as butter. Going back to the level 80 rotation when I get synced feels boring now.

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Using Gnashing Fang first then No Mercy while still not getting every Hypervelocity feels "smooth as butter?" Doing your natural rotation makes your No Mercy and Gnashing Fang window 2-3s late after your GCD feels smooth as butter?

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Using Gnashing Fang first then No Mercy while still not getting every Hypervelocity feels "smooth as butter?" Doing your natural rotation makes your No Mercy and Gnashing Fang window 2-3s late after your GCD feels smooth as butter?

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Why would you ever use gnashing fang vefore no mercy? I know it's supposed to be used on cooldown, but if you're placing it right, it should always be up in time to fit within a no mercy window.

I really dislike how slow the gcd overall is in Endwalker so far, but even at my slowest of 2.47s I was able to fit all my cartridge spenders in it. Although I never used them in the order most folks would say to.

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

Why would you ever use gnashing fang vefore no mercy? I know it's supposed to be used on cooldown, but if you're placing it right, it should always be up in time to fit within a no mercy window.

I really dislike how slow the gcd overall is in Endwalker so far, but even at my slowest of 2.47s I was able to fit all my cartridge spenders in it. Although I never used them in the order most folks would say to.

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Old fang plus continuation had less them then burst strike + hyper velocity. You you effectively delayed no mercy for around 100 more potency. But they changed that in the last patch . In general it’s a quality of life nerf for gnb. You lose now around 6-9 cartridges depending on the fight because blood fest is now 120 and not 90 but now it’s up perfect for every 2 minute burst window

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

Why would you ever use gnashing fang vefore no mercy? I know it's supposed to be used on cooldown, but if you're placing it right, it should always be up in time to fit within a no mercy window.

I really dislike how slow the gcd overall is in Endwalker so far, but even at my slowest of 2.47s I was able to fit all my cartridge spenders in it. Although I never used them in the order most folks would say to.

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Because with your second Bloodfest, you need to use No Mercy after Gnashing Fang to fit more Hypervelocities in which is greater DPS gain. You can even see it in the picture posted above.

When you're doing your rotation right, No Mercy and Gnashing Fang will inevitably sometimes not line up correctly at level 90.

As per The Balance GNB guide:

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Gnashing Fang ➞ No Mercy

Due to the nature of how Gunbreaker is in Endwalker, if you follow the rotation as intended you will eventually come to a situation at certain intervals where you will have:

Three Cartridges prepped.
Solid Barrel is ready to cast at the next GCD.
No Mercy is still on cooldown until after the next GCD.

This isn’t an error or a mistake, it’s guaranteed in the rotation and will happen. The most optimal choice for this is to use Gnashing Fang ➞ Jugular Rip ➞ No Mercy. (See three minute window above).

Although we are leaving Gnashing Fang and Jugular Rip out of No Mercy, it secures an extra Burst Strike in No Mercy while ensuring that No Mercy does not drift out of raid buffs. It has been discussed and assessed and, as odd as it is, No Mercy after Gnashing is the optimal play and is something you will need to get used to.

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It's clunky.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Because with your second Bloodfest, you need to use No Mercy after Gnashing Fang to fit more Hypervelocities in which is greater DPS gain. You can even see it in the picture posted above.

When you're doing your rotation right, No Mercy and Gnashing Fang will inevitably sometimes not line up correctly at level 90.

As per The Balance GNB guide:



It's clunky.

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I checked the balance site just last week and the last time it had updated anything for gnb was in April. Is that statement still valid after the bloodfest changes?

...OK, so I reread and I noticed it's only talking about no mercy and gnash. Maybe this talk of optimization is going way over my head since I haven't focused on that sort of thing for any of my tanks.

What is the rotation supposed to be and how far into it does this clunky interaction occur? I hardly ever notice such a thing since I've only done normal content.

I'm really loving GNB after the QoLs. Helps disconnecting from bosses easily and gets less punished if you forgot the 90s Bloodfest outside burst phases. I felt like the last one was a bit random as a 90s.

I do agree that No Mercy after gnashing fang feels weird and it's the only gripe I have with the job.
3 Cartridges made it easier to manage the gauge between every 60s phases.

I kinda get that GNB has a lot of rigid oGCDs to weave and it can be annoying when using mitigation.

One of my biggest gripe is with Camouflage. Since you can't parry many instances of damage, it's kinda 10% on 20s.
I'm feel like it's better to take advantage of its duration rather than its mitigation in raiding.

There was one but it was removed due to people taking everything that was place on it as all the buttons you had to hit within the window of your 1,2,3,4,5,6 minute rotation. They are telling people that it was not the set in stone rotation and that you should put in your hard hitting Ogcd and Gcd into NM window. But I like many other used it as ok how do I fit all of this into 20 NM without losing damage.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Yeah as far as I know no chart exists for 6.2 yet, your best bet is to join the Balance Discord or regularly check here https://www.thebalanceffxiv.com/ for any updates.

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Escence said:
Player
Today 10:34 AM
(0)
There was one but it was removed due to people taking everything that was place on it as all the buttons you had to hit within the window of your 1,2,3,4,5,6 minute rotation. They are telling people that it was not the set in stone rotation and that you should put in your hard hitting Ogcd and Gcd into NM window. But I like many other used it as ok how do I fit all of this into 20 NM without losing damage.

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Originally Posted by Escence

Escence said:
Player
Today 10:34 AM
(0)
There was one but it was removed due to people taking everything that was place on it as all the buttons you had to hit within the window of your 1,2,3,4,5,6 minute rotation. They are telling people that it was not the set in stone rotation and that you should put in your hard hitting Ogcd and Gcd into NM window. But I like many other used it as ok how do I fit all of this into 20 NM without losing damage.

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Sounds like another case of people not thinking for themselves.

I hope they bring over stuff like Relentless Rush/Terminal Trigger into PvE GNB since it's the most Renzokuken like attack they came up with and I don't think many can argue how good it would feel to use for mob packs.

The cartridges can easily stay as is if they just make DD cost 1 cartridge and give Double Down, Bow Shock and Sonic Break a 30 second CD instead of 60 so every other use you have buttons to press in and out of a No Mercy Window.

This way Burst, Gnashing, and DD all cost once cartridge and it will feel smooth instead of clunky.

Knocking Bloodfest to 30 or a 60 CD would also do wonders for using Burst Strike and Hypervelocity more.

Would be a nice combat loop to go through. The 2 minute burst formula they have a boner for just seems to ruin things for every job it seems.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

I hope they bring over stuff like Relentless Rush/Terminal Trigger into PvE GNB since it's the most Renzokuken like attack they came up with and I don't think many can argue how good it would feel to use for mob packs.

The cartridges can easily stay as is if they just make DD cost 1 cartridge and give Double Down, Bow Shock and Sonic Break a 30 second CD instead of 60 so every other use you have buttons to press in and out of a No Mercy Window.

This way Burst, Gnashing, and DD all cost once cartridge and it will feel smooth instead of clunky.

Knocking Bloodfest to 30 or a 60 CD would also do wonders for using Burst Strike and Hypervelocity more.

Would be a nice combat loop to go through. The 2 minute burst formula they have a boner for just seems to ruin things for every job it seems.

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Yo, I'd love relentless rush! Though to be fair, gnashing fang + continuation is already supposed to be a stand in for renzokuken. It literally translates to continuous sword.

But that would be really sick, I like pvp gnb

I'd like to see a Continuation for Fated Circle actually, it would feel really good in dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

I'd like to see a Continuation for Fated Circle actually, it would feel really good in dungeons.

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For Fated Circle specifically I don't see the issue, you have weave space in your aoe rotation. As long as they don't get the idea to add Continuation to Double Down.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

I'd like to see a Continuation for Fated Circle actually, it would feel really good in dungeons.

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Relentless Rush here we come

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Originally Posted by Mithron

I'd like to see a Continuation for Fated Circle actually, it would feel really good in dungeons.

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I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE!

Sorry, I've been wondering why the cartridge skills didn't all have a follow-up from Continuation since the job was released. Hypervelocity was a good addition, but I think all Continuation procs should be available when Continuation is unlocked at 70.

But like... tank level ups have always been weird since I started playing, so it's whatever, I guess. Fated Circle should have one, though. It makes no sense not to when Burst Strike does.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

For Fated Circle specifically I don't see the issue, you have weave space in your aoe rotation. As long as they don't get the idea to add Continuation to Double Down.

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And then Sonic Break Continuation... even though it doesn't use ammo lol

All of the continuations. Let the carpal tunnel flow through you.

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE!

Sorry, I've been wondering why the cartridge skills didn't all have a follow-up from Continuation since the job was released. Hypervelocity was a good addition, but I think all Continuation procs should be available when Continuation is unlocked at 70.

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Hypervelocity being a good addition is arguable.

I really like how the job plays in PvP. I think the roadmap forward for GNB based on the backwards thinking of the job design team for PvE is to make every GCD proc continuation and I wouldn't put it past them to do it either.

Don't forget Continuation II, which procs off Continuation :cool:

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Originally Posted by baklava151

Don't forget Continuation II, which procs off Continuation :cool:

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Would it be a terrible idea, thought?
It could be a GCD that evolves everytime you use continuation, up to 3 level. A bit like SAM with Sens.
Or it could be another continuation that allows to store Burst strikes continuation and possibly the future continuations.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Would it be a terrible idea, thought?
It could be a GCD that evolves everytime you use continuation, up to 3 level. A bit like SAM with Sens.
Or it could be another continuation that allows to store Burst strikes continuation and possibly the future continuations.

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Yes, it would be a terrible idea.