Really late Deep Dungeon Feedback

O merciless YoshiP, heed my prayers.

Please, pretty please, remove the "No Abilities" debuff from present and future deep dungeons.

Out of all the areas to provide feedback on, debuffs would be the hardest. This is because debuffs in general are the single aspect that challenge your skills to remain consistent under stress.

However, "No Abilities" does not challenge your consistency. It is the game giving you the middle finger just to completely spite you.

"No Abilities" guts your damage output and toolkit, severely wasting your time in an already time-sensitive environment. Sure, it isn't a big deal on it's own, but it certainly isn't fun to play around.

When the only counter to "No Abilities" is to use a Serenity, how is that solution fun in any capacity when you are already relying on cascades of RNG to keep your run consistent?

The worst case scenario is "No Abilities" + "No Items", which still isn't a big deal for light parties because light parties can work through anything with enough coordination. But for solo players, the benchmark to how viable and fun this content is in the first place, you'll begin frothing at the mouth because the game forces you to waste time. Combine that with an already terrible floor set (ie. 5 "No Item" floors in a row) and you'll require medical attention just to keep your anger in check.

Every other debuff in Deep Dungeons could be worked around and still be enjoyable. Only "No Abilities" damages the soul, especially on later floors where everything hits like a truck.

What is the point of "No Abilities" when "Damage Down" already exists? Why not just increase the potency of "Damage Down" so that you would be required to use a Strength to counteract it or to use a Serenity to save time?

"No Abilities" is disrespectful in every facet imaginable. It guts your damage, it wastes your time, it's not challenging you, and it's not fun to play around when it's clearly not a skill issue. Please delete it.

Sincerely,
A salty, irrelevant catgirl.

This can be argued for literally every debuff.

Also making POTD easier is quite the middle finger to those who've solo cleared.

Not too experienced - I'm currently on my climb through the floors - solo that is, as I want to discover the content on my own the first time.

From what I understand, negative floor effects like amnesia (and certain room layouts as well) are essentially a challenge of logistics regarding Pomander usage. Rushing through the Cairn of Passage as soon as possible is definitely a good solution, but needing to build ressources with gold chests to not run out of Pomanders matters as much, or not using Pomanders even if it would be at least marginally useful matters as well.

Maybe I'm not experienced enough, but Amnesia is simply a challenge, one way or another. Either how you handle the floor or how you handle previous logistics.

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Originally Posted by iVolke

This can be argued for literally every debuff.

Also making POTD easier is quite the middle finger to those who've solo cleared.

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That's exactly why it's so hard to criticize debuffs. But I'm only arguing for No Abilities to be deleted since that debuff in particular is essentially a "Damage Down" debuff but significantly worse.

Unlike literally every other debuff, you are limited to a gutted rotation and can't be creative with your solutions to kill mobs. For instance, it becomes significantly more dangerous to use landmines/silver chests.

In every case, if you're forced to fight against No Abilities in the later floors, you'll end up wasting even more time in comparison to every other debuff. Even moreso if it's layered with more debuffs.

The only solution to prevent such a significant time-loss is using a Serenity. Sure. But then if you get multiple floors that forces you to eat all of your serenities (suppose you get seriously unlucky in your floor set and consistently get disgusting triple debuffs), well that's just you being unlucky, right?

A hard reliance on Serenity is just bad design when every other debuff isn't as suffocating as "No Abilities" (aside from "No Items", which I don't take issue with). I seriously don't understand how anyone can have fun at that point. If you do, please let me know how you can.

Okay, but straight up deleting it would make it "easier" by removing a vector of bad RNG. Right. If you still wanted to retain that same difficulty, you could simply just increase the potency of "Damage Down" to be just as effective as "No Abilities". When you do that, at least you can still be creative with how you tackle the problem because you can actually press your buttons.

Would that still be a middle finger to those who solo cleared? I don't think so. You don't have fun when you spend 10+ hours on a POTD run only to realize that you weren't lucky enough to win.

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Originally Posted by thedude28

That's exactly why it's so hard to criticize debuffs. But I'm only arguing for No Abilities to be deleted since that debuff in particular is essentially a "Damage Down" debuff but significantly worse.

Unlike literally every other debuff, you are limited to a gutted rotation and can't be creative with your solutions to kill mobs.

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Pomanders are your creative solution.

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Originally Posted by iVolke

Pomanders are your creative solution.

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Forgive me for a lack of understanding, how are pomanders a creative solution to "No Abilities"? If you believe that they *are* a solution, could you explain how you would handle it on later floors? I'm just trying to absorb as much knowledge as possible.

use serenity, rage or other types of floor wipes, if you cant handle the no skill thing. Also no need to use it on flighted floors or floors with mandragoras.

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Originally Posted by iVolke

Pomanders are your creative solution.

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Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

use serenity, rage or other types of floor wipes, if you cant handle the no skill thing. Also no need to use it on flighted floors or floors with mandragoras.

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That's my point. You can't be creative about it. You're forced to use precious resources in an already resource-intensive scenario. You can only legitimately fight through it in niche scenarios, and no other pomander can make up for that DPS deficit.

Writing off this argument because "it could be applied to every other debuff" is simply not true. The only other debuff that also forces you to use the same precious resources is "No Items". But again, the difference between "No Items" and "No Abilities" is that you can maintain DPS/use landmines and or silver chests exactly because you can use your abilities.

And don't even think that this is a skill issue, because your skill can only get you so far. You WILL be forced into extremely uncomfortable, constrained, and frustrating scenarios off of these debuffs alone. And there WILL be points where you legitimately cannot handle the "No Ablities" debuff because you're out of resources, but we're just going to pretend that's a skill issue, right?

So just saying "oh just be more creative with your pomanders" or "this can literally be argued for any other debuff" or "just git gud" or "just RNG better" is not a good criticism of my feedback. It is exposing you for how unqualified you are for pushing such content to the extremes. (Not you, ServerCollaps, thank you for giving me a proper answer)

It's not "no abilities" though, it's "no abilities" and "silence" and you can use echo drops to cure silence, this puts an advantage on casters who have things other then abilities to use.

This one debuff insures that you take at least one caster with you into any run to 200.

the only debuff combo thats annoying to handle is gloom, no items + no skills (which doesnt happen too often and then just serenity/floorwipe). Everything else is fine (even in solo runs). If you use your fortunes, affluences and alterations you will never run dry on ressources either

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Originally Posted by ICountFrom0

It's not "no abilities" though, it's "no abilities" and "silence" and you can use echo drops to cure silence, this puts an advantage on casters who have things other then abilities to use.

This one debuff insures that you take at least one caster with you into any run to 200.

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I'm pretty sure that Silence comes from traps, not the floor debuffs themselves. Silence is the equivalent of Pacification, which you can't use spells/weaponskills. So yeah, casters do have an advantage there. But in solo play with No Abilities, a BLM/THM can't use Manaward for a landmines/silver chests, for instance.

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Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

the only debuff combo thats annoying to handle is gloom, no items + no skills (which doesnt happen too often and then just serenity/floorwipe). Everything else is fine (even in solo runs). If you use your fortunes, affluences and alterations you will never run dry on ressources either

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I am absolutely confident that No Abilities will make you cringe in every scenario because it is that un-fun to play around. When your tool-kit is stripped away from unpredictable RNG + future expansions, you will only have bitter hatred for that particular floor. It's not "challenging" you in the same way any other debuff would, it is and always will be a point of sheer annoyance with no room to counter-play. It is, in my opinion, the game giving you the middle finger just because it can. Especially because you can play around any other debuff (and most combinations of them) just fine.

That's why I propose to delete No Abilities or offload that DPS loss to the other debuff that straight up reduces your damage anyways. At that point, it would make the backend RNG slightly more consistent and would make the challenge more enjoyable when you can hit your buttons.

Its still created as group content and a totally fine mechanic in a group environment. It makes Healing a bit more difficult and tanks have to pay more attention with their defensive cooldowns (which imo makes it more interesting/entertaining). And as I mentioned before, there are plenty of ways to deal with, when trying to solo a deep dungeon :shrug: