Education systems in XIV

The latest bone my brain has been chewing on is how many schools are there in XIV and what RL equivalent would you give said school? There's four that we know of. We know of the Studium, Saint Endalim's Scholasticate, the Rissai-juku and the Magitek Academy. The only one which seems to allow any child to attend regardless of status or wealth is that of the Rissai-juku. The other three seem to need either some status or wealth or both to attend as Nero seems to have needed to apply on his own to the Academy since he calls himself a peasant from the province. Where Cid was invited to apply. Both are attending it around the age of twelve. Which is stated as being the youngest.

We also know that the Studium and the Scholasticate have at least a money barrier for entry as the twins mom gets worried about less wealthy families via the exchange program might not be able to send their children to the Studium if not also afford their materials. It's also hinted that the main character we interact with during the Scholasticate story has the smarts to keep up with their fellow students but isn't from as wealthy of a family. We get no hint that the children of the Brume go to school pre Firmament reconstruction.

We know that the Garlean Empire makes some form of education mandatory when we're at the negotiation table with Varis when Hein brings up how even though religion is banned in Garlemald the Emperor is to be revered and praised at all times which is taught to school children.

Then we know that the Archon mark is sort of akin to getting one's PHD. Do you think there's schools in the three starter cities and if there are what types of hurdles would there be? What kind of schooling do you think other places we've visited would have? Also sorry if this is something that we've talked about partially in another older thread. As while writing this post I vaguely remember debates about XIV's various education systems.

Well, how are you defining school exactly? Would the Thaumaturgy Guild in Ul’dah count for example? Are we only talking about academic institutions? Or do martial arts places such as the Pugulist’s Guild or being apprenticed to a blacksmith count? I feel like there’s lots of places in the game where people can go to learn things.

In general, the game setting seems to be going with the ye olden real world scenarios where many “academic institutions” were only for the wealthy (although in XIV I think they all allow women to enroll, which is a stark difference from many historical real world institutions).

Within the world of XIV, magic for the most part is a very academic subject, unlike in other games where some people are just born with it and some aren’t (I personally prefer XIV’s setting where it’s a subject that can be learned by anyone, as I generally dislike the notion that some people are just special and you’re not. Or the idea that someone is fundamentally incapable of learning something. I just can’t agree with the sentiment).

So going back to the starter cities, I would say that the Thaumaturgy Guild in Ul’dah counts as a school in the broad sense of “a place people go to learn things where there are learners and teachers.” But with that train of thought, I could argue that any of the class guilds in the game are such. So, how are we defining “school” exactly? I feel like the analysis of XIV’s setting is going to be different depending on how we define it.

Besides the obvious Sharlayan, there's Ishgard who has a whole questline devoted to its school. Ul'dah's alchemist guild also seems to act as something of a school and the guildmaster at Limsa's arcanist guild teaches children as well.

Other than that, Eorzea is likely much like real-life medieval Europe and the vast majority of "education" is done through apprenticing at the guild you'll be working at as an adult. Most of the population seems to be illiterate and that's backed up by the signs on all the shops being pictures instead of names. Some adventurers we bump into and even Estinien are from small farming villages that are not even on the map so it can be assumed that not everyone lives in the city either and many people just exist as farmers for generations, without needing to read or anything else.

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Originally Posted by Haventale

Well, how are you defining school exactly? Would the Thaumaturgy Guild in Ul’dah count for example? Are we only talking about academic institutions? Or do martial arts places such as the Pugulist’s Guild or being apprenticed to a blacksmith count? I feel like there’s lots of places in the game where people can go to learn things.

In general, the game setting seems to be going with the ye olden real world scenarios where many “academic institutions” were only for the wealthy (although in XIV I think they all allow women to enroll, which is a stark difference from many historical real world institutions).

Within the world of XIV, magic for the most part is a very academic subject, unlike in other games where some people are just born with it and some aren’t (I personally prefer XIV’s setting where it’s a subject that can be learned by anyone, as I generally dislike the notion that some people are just special and you’re not. Or the idea that someone is fundamentally incapable of learning something. I just can’t agree with the sentiment).

So going back to the starter cities, I would say that the Thaumaturgy Guild in Ul’dah counts as a school in the broad sense of “a place people go to learn things where there are learners and teachers.” But with that train of thought, I could argue that any of the class guilds in the game are such. So, how are we defining “school” exactly? I feel like the analysis of XIV’s setting is going to be different depending on how we define it.

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I meant academic. Since the Rissai-juku seems to be the equivalent of elementary school. The guilds for me would be more like trade schools. The only thing holding people back at least outside of skill via crafters and gathers that would hold someone back is the person's ability to access to aether. Since the guildmasters of the Thaumaturge gild's youngest sibling doesn't have a biggest personal aether pool and so they're unable to learn. Since teaching anyone with too small of a pool will have a high risk of dying. Same with using Red Magic. Why Arya has a problem being as good as us or X'Ruhn.

What MikkoAkure said is most hammer on the nail I think.

Most of the societies in Eorzea are geared towards sheer survival, rather than towards enlightenment.

You have to wonder a bit about how much book learning really could afford to your average person in this setting, too. Wouldn't it be more prudent to learn a trade or how to fight in a world full of monsters and magic? I mean, even the intellectual institutes that we know about seem to have practical applications in mind.

It's probably something along the lines of figuring out a child's strengths, and then giving them over to the most applicable guild. Like that girl in the Conjurer quests.

This question calls to mind just how big of a deal it was when Sharlayan made the Hinterlands colony. Wasn't it always a big point that many intellectuals or lovers of knowledge(education) tried to go there?

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Other than that, Eorzea is likely much like real-life medieval Europe and the vast majority of "education" is done through apprenticing at the guild you'll be working at as an adult. Most of the population seems to be illiterate and that's backed up by the signs on all the shops being pictures instead of names. Some adventurers we bump into and even Estinien are from small farming villages that are not even on the map so it can be assumed that not everyone lives in the city either and many people just exist as farmers for generations, without needing to read or anything else.

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It’s stated in the Eorzea Encyclopedia that around 50% of Eorzeans are literate, so the the Medieval comparison doesn’t hold completely. It being so high should suggest that schooling of some sort is common, even if it’s just some instruction on numbers and letters. In the 1450s, Germany and Britain had literacy rates between 7% to 16% and it wasn’t until the 18th century that it reached as high as Eorzeas so I think we need to give the continent more credit. They have a unified currency and language, established overland and oversea trade routes that stretch from continent to continent, and a relatively advanced understanding of astronomy and physics. The Enlightenment and Scientific Revolution is right around the corner.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

It’s stated in the Eorzea Encyclopedia that around 50% of Eorzeans are literate, so the the Medieval comparison doesn’t hold completely. It being so high should suggest that schooling of some sort is common, even if it’s just s9me instruction on numbers and letters. In the 1450s, Germany and Britain had literacy rates between 7% to 16% and it wasn’t until the 18th century that it reached as high as Eorzeas so I think we need to give the continent more credit. They have a unified currency and language, established overland and oversea trade routes that stretch from continent to continent, and a relatively advanced understanding of astronomy and physics. The Enlightenment and Scientific Revolution is right around the corner.

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I always assumed FFXIV's general societal level was somewhere between the Renaissance and Industrial Revolution (when exactly kinda depends on where you're looking). A quick google says that literacy rates in that time were around 50%-ish, which checks out, especially when you account for the fact FFXIV's world is much less sexist than that era was in real life so you can presume the lower rates of literacy among women wouldn't carry over.

In all likelihood there are people who teach literacy and basic math skills to children lucky enough to meet them. Jannequinard, the job mentor for the Astrologian quests, spends his downtime when not at the Athenaeum Astrologicum teaching children "their numbers, letters, and stars". House Haillenarte does active philanthropic work, Nanamo sets up a trade school for Ala Mhigan refugees in Stormblood, and we see that numerous business leaders like Beatin and Rowena are fond enough of children to look after them.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

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I think the state of education and society's survival demands are often linked. For example, following the Fourth Umbral Calamity (of Earth), there was a dark age of sorts in which people were generally distrustful of knowledge and technology on account of the fall of Allag. This persisted until the Fifth Umbral Calamity (of Ice) forced society to develop magic again in order to fend off the cold and have a means of growing crops in the harsh environment. After the War of the Magi and the Sixth Umbral Calamity (of Water), there was yet another dark age in which magic was forbidden, libraries were burnt, and spellcasters were hunted down. So this very much seems to have been a cyclical thing simply because people didn't fully who was at the root of these Calamities.

I've found this Tumblr blog collecting XIV lore. The author has an article on formal education in Eorzea: https://mirkemenagerie.tumblr.com/po...n-in-the-other

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I don't have carpenter levelled so I can't check, but it appears Stillglade Fane plays a role in the education of children as well, even if it's not necessarily in a classroom setting:

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An edict recently passed by Stillglade Fane requiring all children between the ages of six and nine to train in the art of conjury has parents scrambling to find reasonably priced canes and crooks.

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This is supposed to be text from a level 5 carpenter levequest.

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Leaving canon territory, I've read a fanfiction where the protagonist was taught literacy at a temple of Thaliak in Limsa Lominsa, perhaps inspired by how the cult of the Muses were associated with places of learning (Mouseion, which formed the basis of the word "museum") in ancient Greece.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I think the state of education and society's survival demands are often linked. For example, following the Fourth Umbral Calamity (of Earth), there was a dark age of sorts in which people were generally distrustful of knowledge and technology on account of the fall of Allag. This persisted until the Fifth Umbral Calamity (of Ice) forced society to develop magic again in order to fend off the cold and have a means of growing crops in the harsh environment. After the War of the Magi and the Sixth Umbral Calamity (of Water), there was yet another dark age in which magic was forbidden, libraries were burnt, and spellcasters were hunted down. So this very much seems to have been a cyclical thing simply because people didn't fully who was at the root of these Calamities.

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This kind of brings up another good point. Eorzea never started as the first civilization. It already had precursors with certainly higher literacy rates, as well as methods for intercontinental travel and route planning. Better technology and life expectancy. Floating continent and computers and what not. As well as robots and advanced automation. Eorzea got to leapfrog off of that and disseminate the knowledge. It also had shadowy villains wanting it to advance to flourish to make another calamity possible. Hard to really say what age they're in, compared to ours

It seems more to me that every time society managed to reach a certain level of development and progress, it ended up getting hit by a Calamity which in turn lead people to question their old ways and completely discard them (usually burning libraries in the process). You see this with the early theocratic societies prior to the Third Umbral Calamity, Allag prior to the Fourth Umbral Calamity, and Mhachi/Amdapor/Nym prior to the Sixth Umbral Calamity. It sounds like there's a lot of knowledge being completely lost on each reset and subsequently redeveloped from scratch.

I do find it interesting that every time society becomes sufficiently advanced, it also usually ends up consorting with Voidsent, which rarely ends well. You see this with Allag, Mhachi, and Garlemald. Although that might ultimately be from Ascian influence. Loghrif in particular seems to have a really interesting void connection.

On a tangential point, I'm floored by the amount of little lore pieces locked away behind the sightseeing log and triple triad cards. I wonder if they could do something similar with collectible books to expand out some sort of 'knowledge log'. Perhaps you get a lore entry after you've found the required set of books. FFVIII did something similar with hidden periodicals, if I remember correctly.

Why are we comparing a fantasy game which borrows inspiration from various things to real life human civilization history?

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Originally Posted by Lyth

It seems more to me that every time society managed to reach a certain level of development and progress, it ended up getting hit by a Calamity which in turn lead people to question their old ways and completely discard them (usually burning libraries in the process). You see this with the early theocratic societies prior to the Third Umbral Calamity, Allag prior to the Fourth Umbral Calamity, and Mhachi/Amdapor/Nym prior to the Sixth Umbral Calamity. It sounds like there's a lot of knowledge being completely lost on each reset and subsequently redeveloped from scratch.

I do find it interesting that every time society becomes sufficiently advanced, it also usually ends up consorting with Voidsent, which rarely ends well. You see this with Allag, Mhachi, and Garlemald. Although that might ultimately be from Ascian influence. Loghrif in particular seems to have a really interesting void connection.

On a tangential point, I'm floored by the amount of little lore pieces locked away behind the sightseeing log and triple triad cards. I wonder if they could do something similar with collectible books to expand out some sort of 'knowledge log'. Perhaps you get a lore entry after you've found the required set of books. FFVIII did something similar with hidden periodicals, if I remember correctly.

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None of that knowledge is completely lost, because most of it made it to modern day. "Ruins" completely intact from those time periods, too. Hell, constructs still around from all those time periods, too! Archaeology in this setting is like a penultimate master class in getting ahead.

Being an expert on ancient Allag, for instance, means that certain catboys know how to operate computers/robotic nodes.

It's difficult to make any sort of comment on exactly how much knowledge has been permanently lost as opposed to temporarily lost, because that's entirely writer discretion. Allag's computer systems and genetic technology are certainly not part of our mainstream knowledge base, despite G'raha's access to the (non-password protected) sections of their databases. If we really were entirely reliant on Allag to get to where we are now, then we would be making same technology everywhere. There will be plenty of cases of reinventing the wheel in the interim as we learn more about their discoveries.

It's also really difficult to appropriately credit these discoveries and trace the flow of information between civilizations. For example, the Garleans managed to reverse engineer and even improve on Allag's original warmachina with the addition of a synthetic auracite system as part of the Weapons project. But the idea of using auracite to store primal energies is not even an Allagan concept. It dates back to the fall of the Thirteenth, and has ties to Ivalice and the Lucavi as well. Figuring out how exactly the cross-pollination of ideas occurred between all these societies is going to be entirely speculation at this point.

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Originally Posted by Theox

Why are we comparing a fantasy game which borrows inspiration from various things to real life human civilization history?

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Because one of the main things it pulls from is real life human civilization history. Both on a conscious and unconscious level.

Also, we don't really have a lot of info on the schooling, education systems and literacy rates of any fictional settings that aren't actually set in schools. We do have that information for actual real life, so it's way easier to compare.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

It's difficult to make any sort of comment

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I don't think it's as difficult as you're making it out to be. The Allagan Empire was a world wide empire. It had a hand in every cookie jar. There's organizations and individuals in every society that pursue technology and trinkets from their civilization.

Every big technological "innovation" in the present of the game's world was brought about by organizations versed in Allag. Most prominently, the wide reaching Garlean Empire which passes on Magitek technology either through conquest or from having it stolen from them. I mean, just where do you think Carvallain got his ship's ceruleum engine? You know, the one that drastically cuts the voyage time to and from the Far East.

Another big piece of truly ancient technology that has survived into the modern day is the aethereyte. Which we've known to be part of Ancient society since Shadowbringers. World wide teleportation networks for any capable of teleportation. If that doesn't give every society afterwards a leg up, then nothing does.

Like, sure, we can't trace a line between every piece of knowledge from then to now, but there's plenty of instances similar to Buckler Stew that we can.

The short of it is that we're actually in a post-post apocalyptic setting where anything new can be old again.

I was under the impression that Allag's successful conquests were ultimately limited to the land mass we're currently on. When they tried to expand out into Meracydia they were beaten back handily by members of the First Brood and the Warring Triad. When they finally managed to regain the upper hand by defeating Bahamut with their chimeric technology, Tiamat and Meracydians just summoned him back in primal form to beat them back to the beaches, which is what forced their hand to make deals with the Void. In fact, in the flashback Fandaniel has of Emet coming to pick him up, Emet distinctly gives the impression that Xande was on the verge of losing when he tried to force open that fateful hollow to the Thirteenth, which shattered the foundations of the Crystal Tower in the process (Lv.80: 'Tipping the Scale'):

Emet: 'You know as well as I that the emperor stands to lose this war. And so I have come to claim you. For while your methods leave something to be desired, we cannot deny the results of your work. And as fortune would have it, the seat of Fandaniel - your rightful seat - lies vacant and waiting. Take your place among your peers, rather than die a pointless death amidst the ashes of your doomed nation. Send one of your clones to the crystal tower that you might see for yourself.'

That's part of what makes Meracydia fascinating, in that mere practitioners of 'derivative creation magic' alongside the First Brood managed to stand up against the combined might of Allag, the Ascians, and the Voidsent. The more I see of these supposedly 'all powerful' civilizations, the more they just look like big fish in a small pond. I presume that's why Emet encouraged us to expand our horizons. The world is a big place, and we know far, far too little about it to be certain about anything.

I think Allag is a convenient method of writing in futuristic technology into the game, but I wouldn't rush to credit everything to them when there's so much more to see!

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

None of that knowledge is completely lost, because most of it made it to modern day. "Ruins" completely intact from those time periods, too. Hell, constructs still around from all those time periods, too! Archaeology in this setting is like a penultimate master class in getting ahead.

Being an expert on ancient Allag, for instance, means that certain catboys know how to operate computers/robotic nodes.

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For the Sixth Astral Era at least we can say that the vast majority was lost and only recently was what’s left rediscovered. After the Calamity of Water the few wise men and libraries left were destroyed, and the few surviving sources of knowledge (like Azys La or Void Ark) were out of reach.

And further to that, the aftermath of the Sixth Calamity resulted in a backlash towards knowledge and learning in general (due to a confusion between the mages who caused the War of the Magi that precipated the Calamity, and scientists and inventors of technology), with the natural result that eventually even anyone who happened to be literate and numerate was hunted down and lynched, sending Eorzea into ignorance and barbarism that took centuries for it to recover.

Well, recovered enough that reading and writing returned and magic started to be experimented with again anyway (which probably also underlined and vindicated Sharlayan's "non inteference" policy as horders of knowledge).

Yeah there's also the case of previous calamities being much grander in scale compared to 7th Umbral Calamity. Ultimately release of Bahamuth would likely wipe much larger portions of Eorza were it not for Louisoix going Phoenix. Add in the natural hatred for the source of Calamity among the survivors and you really hamper the scientific growth.