Remove two Summoner butons?

Just an idea. I think it would simplify things a bit..

Trance phases have two buttons for single target and AOE
Summon phases have two more buttons for single target and AOE.

Except for Ruin III, the opposite phase's buttons are dead half the time (Gemshine and Precious Brilliance are dead in trances, and Tri-Disaster is dead during summons. Ruin III is active during summon, but there's little reason to use it then.

I suggest combining these 4 buttons into two, which work in both trance and summon phases. This way, there's no need to switch back and forth, as well as cleaning up the interface a bit.

The single target button will switch between:
Ruin III No phase
Astral Impulse Bahamut trance
Fountain of Fire Phoenix trance
R, E, T Rite Summon phases

The AOE button will switch between:
Tri-Disaster No phase
Astral Flare Bahamut trance
Brand of Purgatory Phoenix trance
R, E, T Catastrophe Summon phases.

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Originally Posted by SamSmoot

Just an idea. I think it would simplify things a bit..

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I don't get what there is left to simplify with summoner... They definitely don't have a button bloat problem so I am not sure what you are trying to accomplish other than turning the summoner 1 button macro into just normal gameplay for them.

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Originally Posted by Amenara

I don't get what there is left to simplify with summoner... They definitely don't have a button bloat problem so I am not sure what you are trying to accomplish other than turning the summoner 1 button macro into just normal gameplay for them.

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The less button, the less jank. Imagine how smooth a job will play once you are only hitting one button. /s

I have a better idea... why not make SMN autopilot while we just watch it do the fights?

SMN have more than 1 button?

Jokes aside, yeah you are absolutely right that there are buttons that feel very superfluous despite them being so few. But this is the issue with this player base - rather than demanding janky gameplay to be ironed out or replaced with something more in-depth, they are perfectly happy to accept amputation instead.

I'll take jank over nothing any day.

Can we not. SMN is already so simple as it is

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Originally Posted by Dahlinea

I have a better idea... why not make SMN autopilot while we just watch it do the fights?

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It depends of how it would be implemented into the game. If it isn't activated by default, people will complain that having to press the autopilot key at the beginning of each dungeon is way too much button bloat, and that the dev who didn't think of that should be fired.

I mean, why not. People already condensed the entire SMN rotation into one button while netting above average results. Might as well stick with the trend and make it official.

I do not want this to happen. During Ifrit and Titan phases you may not want to use a gemstone action because a boss has stepped away and all you can target at that specific second is a weak add. In that moment a Ruin III is better to use so that you can save your potencies and proc (Titan) for the boss when you can hit it again.

It is also not that hard to get used to the different button locations as SMN is implemented now. Perhaps when more actions are added with future updates this sort of thing could be done. However, for right now I would like the option use a ruin action or a gemstone action.

Soon SMN gonna be the healer DPS. One button from 4-90.

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Originally Posted by Superskull85

I do not want this to happen. During Ifrit and Titan phases you may not want to use a gemstone action because a boss has stepped away and all you can target at that specific second is a weak add. In that moment a Ruin III is better to use so that you can save your potencies and proc (Titan) for the boss when you can hit it again.

It is also not that hard to get used to the different button locations as SMN is implemented now. Perhaps when more actions are added with future updates this sort of thing could be done. However, for right now I would like the option use a ruin action or a gemstone action.

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You're going to have to be specific on what fight you're doing that makes using Ruin 3 better over any of the Rites. SMN rotation is hard fixed so that you can spend all Summons, Rites and Astrals with leftover Ruin 3 and Ruin 4 to cast before the next Demi is ready. If bosses are becoming untargetable, then you just keep doing your thing until Phoenix/Bahamut come up but may get to exclude said Ruin spells, or optimise on getting all Summons before Demi cd is up.

Also don't count on a plethora of new spells or actions that everyone thought MCH was getting after its ShB rework.

Summoner arguably could use more buttons, or at least more changed action variety with the current buttons, not less.

The only thing combining these buttons would do is to create more awkwardness in the job design. At times i use a ruin3 to push the rotation slightly to enable me to keep uptime. Sure its often only 1 GCD that would be lost. But over a fiht that could add up if there are multiple instances.

As simple ad braindead as SMN is today, in fact there is a weird case of button bloat between Gemshine and Ruin 3.

Gemshine is not usable without a summon out, yet there is not a case where you would Ruin 3 while a gemstone summon is out... so Why Ruin 3 and Gemshine aren't the same button? Is not like merging those would change anything about how simple summoner is.

You do get to use Ruin 3 instead of Gemshine sometimes - especially if you're Savage raiding, and you need to place Ruin 3 at certain point in the rotation (not at start before because of buffs, not at end because of movement).

But I agree with the button bloat. Having a button for ST and another button for AoE does not make the job more difficult - it's so easy it's stupid. I'd rather some buttons are simplified and leave space for more buttons that add complexity - like having more summons that are used in different ways, or giving more freedom over when to summon Bahamut and Phoenix. I feel like SMN was especially made as a class with few buttons and very compatible with controllers.

Main issue I see with SMN in Savage is how inflexible its burst window is, and no way to correct one after it has happened. I know it's about not having to think and just executing summons, but having some freedom to move the big summons and small summons around could give way for some cool rotations.

You must remember Ruin 3 is used a lot more before lv86

I find myself using Ruin 3 as filler to hold my bahamut phase (or Pheonix phase, if paired with another smn) til SL is off CD whenever I'm savage progging
It's removal would mean that they'd have to either rework how Bahamut/Pheonix works (right now it's tied to SpS which means that high SpS builds will invariably lead to you drifting phases over the course of a fight, heck after 2 rotation passes my phase is beginning to misalign and I need at least 2 ruin 3 fillers in order to keep things aligned) *OR* rework how SL works (tie it to SpS?... which would be kind of weird for an oGCD and end up with SL misaligning with other buffs.)

It's a really good buffer and to remove it would end up requiring a rework of other stuff, otherwise there'd just be a huge misalignment.

I see where OP is coming from and I agree. To those who say "there's nothing more to simplify", yes there is.
Not only can we merge gemshine/brilliance with ruin iii/tridisaster, but we can also merge energy drain/energy siphon with ruin iv.
Note that energy drain/fester and energy siphon/painflare are literally the same skills but 1 target or 2+ so there's very little point to actually separate them.

SMN is such a shallow job that they have to make up buttons to barely fill up 1 XHB. It's a literal button bloat.

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Originally Posted by SamSmoot

Except for Ruin III, the opposite phase's buttons are dead half the time (Gemshine and Precious Brilliance are dead in trances, and Tri-Disaster is dead during summons. Ruin III is active during summon, but there's little reason to use it then.

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Other than "Herp derp, SMN is already too simple!", is there any reason for Ruin 1/2/3 and Outburst/Tri-Disaster not to just be Gemshine and Precious Brilliance's base form? Like, you're never going to cast Ruin 3 if Titan, Garuda, or Ifrit are out. It's a DPS loss in all cases, and in Titan and Garuda, a mobility loss as well. The low levels are even just <Color> Ruin anyway. And the same argument holds for Outburst. Even moreso than this, in Trances, Ruin 1/2/3 and Outburst/Tri-Disaster DO convert to the spam attack of Bahamut/Phoenix phases anyway, during which Gemshine/Precious Brilliance, as you note, do absolutely nothing instead.

It'd make far more sense to just make the base form of the Gemshine button Ruin.

I think that's what you're saying here, and if so, I completely agree.

Not because I think SMN needs to be simplier, but because I think it's honestly just logical to do that.

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Originally Posted by TakumiHarada

I see where OP is coming from and I agree. To those who say "there's nothing more to simplify", yes there is.
Not only can we merge gemshine/brilliance with ruin iii/tridisaster, but we can also merge energy drain/energy siphon with ruin iv.
Note that energy drain/fester and energy siphon/painflare are literally the same skills but 1 target or 2+ so there's very little point to actually separate them.

SMN is such a shallow job that they have to make up buttons to barely fill up 1 XHB. It's a literal button bloat.

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The odd thing about this to me is they just made Ruin 4 AOE to begin with, so that you don't have a "single target vs AOE target" version of it. But they did for the others. And honestly, Aetherflow is the one mechanic I really DID hope they'd drop from SMN. It make some sense for SCH, but SMN has long since stopped using the mechanic, so it seems just weird to still have it instead of just having some oGCDs with charges instead. If we had Ruin 4 as a 60 sec CD button and Energy Drain/Fester as a single oGCD button with 3 charges and a 20 sec refresh, it would achieve the same result without the weird "we have it just to have it" 2 charge Aetherflow thing. It would need to share this with the AOE version, but other Jobs already do this, like WAR with Upheaval/Orogeny, and I think BRD has a single target/AOE target oGCD that share a CD, too. Bloodletter/Rain of Death, maybe?

I'm not saying just make everything AOE (like Ruin 4), but I feel like having two 3 charge buttons (Fester and Painflare) and dumping the Aetherflow mechanic entirely would just make more sense. Instead of pushing the one button to generate a Ruin 4 and then burning the two stacks, you could pool 3 stacks to use during 1 minute burst and Ruin 4 would be a 60 sec CD you'd use that way instead.

That is, this isn't about "make it even easier", as the Aetherflow charges don't add ANY complexity over just having a three charge button, and a three charge button would actually be more complex since you'd have options to either pool 3 charges or burn 1/2 for things like bosses going untargetable - this would actually be a higher skill ceiling than what we have now, if only slightly so - and more about "why the hell does SMN even still HAVE an Aetherflow gauge?" Decoupling it from Ruin 4 could make that "easier", but right now, you just use it on CD anyway, so that's not really a change, and it would punish people for sitting on Ruin 4 instead of keeping the CD rolling, so that would, again, actually be a higher skill ceiling as well.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Other than "Herp derp, SMN is already too simple!", is there any reason for Ruin 1/2/3 and Outburst/Tri-Disaster not to just be Gemshine and Precious Brilliance's base form? Like, you're never going to cast Ruin 3 if Titan, Garuda, or Ifrit are out. It's a DPS loss in all cases, and in Titan and Garuda, a mobility loss as well. The low levels are even just <Color> Ruin anyway. And the same argument holds for Outburst. Even moreso than this, in Trances, Ruin 1/2/3 and Outburst/Tri-Disaster DO convert to the spam attack of Bahamut/Phoenix phases anyway, during which Gemshine/Precious Brilliance, as you note, do absolutely nothing instead.

It'd make far more sense to just make the base form of the Gemshine button Ruin.

I think that's what you're saying here, and if so, I completely agree.

Not because I think SMN needs to be simplier, but because I think it's honestly just logical to do that.

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There is no loss in dps if you cast a Ruin 3 just once in between Demi's. This jobs rotation is hard fixed to use all summons, all gems, all astrals, and still 2 gcds left to cast Ruin 3 & Ruin 4. The reason why they didn't do what is being suggested is because it allows just the SLIGHT bit of flexibility it has to push the summons that is more effective or lines up better.

This bloat that is being experienced is from how the job has been designed at its core. Combine both spells to one button and you only further the rigidity of the job that will create more negative friction.

I agree summoner is way too complicated, if I wanted to play a hard class I would play a reaper.

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Originally Posted by Amenara

I don't get what there is left to simplify with summoner... They definitely don't have a button bloat problem so I am not sure what you are trying to accomplish other than turning the summoner 1 button macro into just normal gameplay for them.

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when i look at my summoner hotbar it's literally filled with holes.
the "new" abilities are in other places where the old abilities used to be and previously i had nearly filled 2 full controller hotbars (which was fine) now each hotbar has massive holes everywhere.

Instead of removing two buttons, they need to add 3, and fix the three that are designed to troll Summoner mains who have been playing it since ARR. The recent trend of reducing complexity is NOT a good thing.

remove the buttons and add one dot, leave the other for a role action / potions

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

remove the buttons and add one dot, leave the other for a role action / potions

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Hmm. Let me slightly alter this statement:

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remove the buttons and add one dot, leave the other for glorified role actions

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My god, it's a healer!

There are absolutely use cases where casting Ruin III or Tri-Disaster would be justified during elemental summon stages, even at maximum level: Your typical rotation has room to have one tossed in per minute, plus there may be unplanned cases where you can’t finish hard-casting certain Ifrit spells and would rather cast something with a smaller cast time instead of casting nothing, so I don’t like the idea of further reducing player agency by making it so that they can only cast it after everything else has already been used. It being usable at any point isn’t button bloat; it adds a bit more complexity and rotation variance, which Summoner needs more of, not less.

If you’re worried about button bloat, which currently seems like a nonexistent problem for Summoner, then ask for the removal of Physick first, although I would rather that spell have its stats adjusted.

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Originally Posted by Dahlinea

I have a better idea... why not make SMN autopilot while we just watch it do the fights?

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Please don't give this dev team any more ideas lol. I'm sure one of them just said "What a great idea for people that need to go AFK during a fight!"

While yeah you probably could do this and not make any real difference, the way it is now does allow people to use Ruin III while attuned to a summon without spending any of the charges. I cant imagine why you would want to use Ruin III instead of a gemshine charge, but you can.

Yeah summoner is the last job that needs buttons removed. Do we know? Does it have the least?

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

While yeah you probably could do this and not make any real difference, the way it is now does allow people to use Ruin III while attuned to a summon without spending any of the charges. I cant imagine why you would want to use Ruin III instead of a gemshine charge, but you can.

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you have to use ruin 3, so this can be a very small optimization for timing in raids