Seal Rock needs a slight tweak

Seal Rock clearly needs a tweak on its layout. The map needs to be funnel shaped at the edges so that it becomes narrow as you approach the team bases. The way it is now, the open map layout allows two teams to spawn-camp the third one without coming close to each other. The result is that most games are turning into a cheesy 2x1 near the end, as my amazing artistic skills demonstrate in the image below (look at Maelstrom base).

If the map funnels in at the edges, the team being ganked will have a fighting chance as the two opposing teams will have to either come into contact with each other or camp farther from the third's spawn point. https://freeimage.host/i/j0NgmG


https://iili.io/j0NgmG.jpg

Adders can also be effectively locked out of participation, too. If Flames approach that top-left node (where the triangles are on the map) from the right at the same time Maelstrom approaches it from the left, Adders are literally incapable of safely approaching that node... or even really having much chance of escaping their base. They would also be incapable of contesting that node even though it's one of "their" nodes because trying to do so guarantees they get pinched by Flames.

The overall map design of Seal Rock isn't terrible, aside from the cave team (Mael here) being dramatically favored due to their nodes being very hard to contest. But the placement of nodes needs some reconsideration. Or they need to design the map so that more nodes are active at any given time, reducing the tendency for all 72 players to be clogged together in one small location.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

Adders can also be effectively locked out of participation, too. If Flames approach that top-left node (where the triangles are on the map) from the right at the same time Maelstrom approaches it from the left, Adders are literally incapable of safely approaching that node... or even really having much chance of escaping their base. They would also be incapable of contesting that node even though it's one of "their" nodes because trying to do so guarantees they get pinched by Flames.

The overall map design of Seal Rock isn't terrible, aside from the cave team (Mael here) being dramatically favored due to their nodes being very hard to contest. But the placement of nodes needs some reconsideration. Or they need to design the map so that more nodes are active at any given time, reducing the tendency for all 72 players to be clogged together in one small location.

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Yeah, the team in the west tends to have an easier time holding on to their nodes. As for the ganking/spawn-camping issue, I believe it can be done against any of the three bases, though I could be wrong here.

There really is an issue with this map. As said, it's not completely bad, but it always feel like not having the same chances depending on where you start.
I mean, it's only based on own experience, but I felt that starting in the northern camp (adders on your pic) is the worst start. You don't have a good way, to defend nodes well against other teams, whereas the the cave team surely has the cave and high nodes to defend and the southern team also has one higher node infront of them and one node right next to them, which could also be easily defended.
Of course, there were matches, were also the northern team won, but I have the feeling it's way less.

Yeah rng can completely throw a game to the point where effort alone couldnt win it back. I had a game last week, us on flames were in the lead, and then every single node spawned on adders side, which meant they win. Its confusing to me because I always assumed pvp was meant to be balanced. Having 1 team at a plain disadvantage right from the start is bad. And I actually quite like seal rock. But it could be improved a lot.

I'm convinced this frontline map was purposely designed to have RNG play a major factor in victories. This ranges from team placement for map advantages all the way to unpredictable node spawns that can turn the fight for teams that are being crushed.

I'll say it. The Seal Rock map itself is unbalanced and flawed. The north team is at a significant tactical disadvantage between the map's geography and tomelith placement, while the caves team enjoys the most accessible and defendable tomelith placement with more advantageous terrain to LoS or restrict enemy movement. The tomelith up the cliff overlooking the centermost tomelith with only 1 ramp to access it directly facing the caves spawn is the most egregious.

While caves and south teams have some tomelith spawns that are difficult for other teams to approach (especially caves), every tomelith within closest proximity to the north team is practically designed to be sandwiched from both sides. The rock arch just south of their base is accessed from both sides, so you're guaranteed to get hit from behind by the 3rd team while trying to hold off the 1st. Likewise, the tomelith in the fenced area just southwest of their base is open from all 4 directions, meaning they'll likely get hit from both west and east and really only can retreat back north along the wall to their spawn... And the other tomeliths beyond those 2 are out in the open and provide no cover or terrain to mitigate pushes.

Whoever designed this map was less about making something "balanced" (after that boring Secure/Slaughter map) and more akin to when we would mess around with the map editor and creator in Warcraft/Starcraft as kids and made something we thought looked "cool," but was competitively asinine.

As for the notion about more "funneled" respawn areas to prevent double-teaming to base, I find that unnecessary, as after maybe the initial minute your respawners with a 10 seconds invincibility should be able to pushback/farm overzealous enemies unless your team can only manage to tickle them because you have too many useful BRDs & DNCs (and now WHMs & SCHs)- in which case your team has a bigger problem. If both teams feel the need to linger and try to keep you from leaving your base, I can only imagine your team should have a massive lead, a tomelith by your base and is about to win- because they're going to have to leave at some point once the fresh tomeliths spawn elsewhere.

Sorry, I know, overly long way of saying "the map is bad, but not for the reason you may think."

Ive had games where its only spawned in the cave section its insane or one sided the RNG can be

RNG is RNG and you have no control over it.
It appears Cave location has advantage, it is because it is easier for North and South to tunnel into brawl due to field of vision
Especially due to NA/EU's unique Horde stampede style, it is easier for North and South tunnel versioned at beach area
Every location is equal.

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Originally Posted by Cidel

As for the notion about more "funneled" respawn areas to prevent double-teaming to base, I find that unnecessary, as after maybe the initial minute your respawners with a 10 seconds invincibility should be able to pushback/farm overzealous enemies unless your team can only manage to tickle them because you have too many useful BRDs & DNCs (and now WHMs & SCHs)- in which case your team has a bigger problem. If both teams feel the need to linger and try to keep you from leaving your base, I can only imagine your team should have a massive lead, a tomelith by your base and is about to win- because they're going to have to leave at some point once the fresh tomeliths spawn elsewhere.

Sorry, I know, overly long way of saying "the map is bad, but not for the reason you may think."

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Your reasoning regarding pushing the other teams from the base is not incorrect, but after playing the map dozens of times over the last week I noticed that this is not what happens. When a team is significantly ahead and the other two teams decide to focus it, there is nothing anyone can do. We are talking about a situation where everyone in two teams is sitting just a few seconds' walk outside the spawn. The 15 sec invulnerability is just not enough in that case. Players in the team under siege will just keep respawning and running to their deaths. If we were talking about smaller parties camping outside respawn point, the invul period would be enough. But that's not the case when you have two whole teams there.

I have seen teams with 700+ points and over 300 points lead over the second place just melt away and finish third. Not once, not twice, but multiple times. I have been both in the giving and the receiving end of this. Unfortunately, this map is just too wide near base, so it allows two teams to camp a third one without coming into contact with each other. If it was narrower, it would be impossible to coordinate that type of action as the two aggressor teams would end up engaging each other somewhat.

In an ideal world the team under siege could position itself completely to the right or completely to the left, but that is impossible to coordinate. When people respawn they just rush whoever they see first.

I made an account just to express how much I fucking hate Seal Rock.

It's a lot.

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Originally Posted by gioroggia

Your reasoning regarding pushing the other teams from the base is not incorrect, but after playing the map dozens of times over the last week I noticed that this is not what happens. When a team is significantly ahead and the other two teams decide to focus it, there is nothing anyone can do. We are talking about a situation where everyone in two teams is sitting just a few seconds' walk outside the spawn. The 15 sec invulnerability is just not enough in that case. Players in the team under siege will just keep respawning and running to their deaths. If we were talking about smaller parties camping outside respawn point, the invul period would be enough. But that's not the case when you have two whole teams there.

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Right. That can happen. After playing this mode for years, I've seen everything happen from the assaulted team pushing through the weaker and thinner team because they just have that much stronger players (they have the runaway lead for a reason), repeatedly respawn and run out like bots only to die without accomplishing anything, and a few rare instances where majority actually sat at the invincible base area until the other teams had no choice but to leave/engage eachother. Additionally, these coordinated assaults rarely last long because at these points of the game, S rank tomeliths spawn more frequently and when they do, one or both opposing teams are going to drop any temporary truce and forget about pinning down the winning team and dogpile on the gold tomelith like their lives depend on it because squirrel attention spans.

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Originally Posted by gioroggia

I have seen teams with 700+ points and over 300 points lead over the second place just melt away and finish third. Not once, not twice, but multiple times. I have been both in the giving and the receiving end of this. Unfortunately, this map is just too wide near base, so it allows two teams to camp a third one without coming into contact with each other. If it was narrower, it would be impossible to coordinate that type of action as the two aggressor teams would end up engaging each other somewhat.

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I've seen fantastic throws too. Too many to count. Teams that have that high of a lead dropping to third usually only had that far of a lead from sheer opportunism and probably don't have many players with Battle Highs because they were probably chasing tomeliths all game and wanted to "let them fight," and got blown-up spectacularly when the other teams finally noticed. I've also seen people in these double-team situations get impatient or baited into engaging the other team because they can't help themselves but to get greedy and attack the closest thing their tab target picks up without distinction, so oftentimes these double-teams tend be short-lived and only last as long as the remaining timers of the active tomeliths.

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Originally Posted by gioroggia

In an ideal world the team under siege could position itself completely to the right or completely to the left, but that is impossible to coordinate. When people respawn they just rush whoever they see first.

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I mean, in an ideal world, the leading team would always be under focus fire as the 2nd and 3rd place team should be stabilizing the score discrepancies every chance they get, but we all know that isn't what happens majority of the time. As you said, because "they just rush whoever they see first."

People need to understand that this 3-way conflict is intended for 2 teams to have the capacity to keep 1 team in check if they get too far ahead; that was the "comeback factor" the devs imposed on this mode, but it's up to the players to have enough awareness to utilize the other losing team against a common enemy. I've said before, but Frontlines modes are often nuanced game theories like the prisoner's dilemma or stag hunt where you need to consider what course of action will have your team's best interest in mind on what team to temporarily "cooperate" with to be put in an advantageous position later. Getting double-team is just an expected feature, otherwise you end up with situations that I'm sure we've all seen where a losing team obstinately attacks the other losing team out of revenge, short-sightedness or ignorance.