After playing around with Paladin post hotfix

Simply put,

SE is moving in the right direction

With the nerf to war emnity is now something of a skill to control especially on long fights DPS jobs need to manage their hate generation and its a pleasure to see some players stepping up to that task, others still blame the tank if they can't max dps.

Anyways as far as I can see the use of PLD in boss fights has improved, with the blocking even while casting spells and abilities PLDs ability to survive has gone up.

Hallowed Ground is amazing now. (time it right and it can make the few seconds before a boss special move or after very easy).

If you are in a boss fight and want to burst hate at the beginning here is a top tip:

Have everyone gather on the pld at the beginning then the PLD should Sentinel -> provoke -> Rampart (all 8 members) -> members run to their positions -- at the same time PLD has divined and uses phalanx spirits within followed by fast blad flat blade.

This gives a massive enmity spike and allows DD to go a little harder at the beginning of fights bar a few seconds running away from the PLD.

All in all very viable job if party plays it right and old strategies are re evaluated.

There is no I in team so stop thinking you can just max DPS and win. Everyone may not be as well equipped or experienced as you are. a good player plays to the weaknesses of a party this is an MMO not a frag fest or race !

I thought the rampart enmity bonus from other players didn't take effect unless they had procured enmity on the mob already. Which it seems they wouldn't have if you're opening the fight with it. I also thought i read somewhere that Sentinel enmity bonus only worked for attacks?

It works, try it and see :)

its because u already have emnity on the boss and u do a massive AOE buff.

Also

it stops those pesky blms from casting as soon as the name turns red.

It dosnt make sense tho; if person A with enmity, buff/cure person B whos never touched the mob and is "cleared" (ie he could change jobs) Those actions shoudnt add up any extra enmity

As I said try it get back to me

It seems to make a difference with me.

Correct , Rampart requires nothing but to land on multiple party members to build hate, the more who get it the stronger the hate. Obviously its next to imposable to determain, but from my experiances, under Ideal situations (3 or more members constantly reciving rampart buff from the PLD) rampart is PLD/GLA strongest hate tool second only to Spirits Within combo.
Also Sentinal seems to work on everything but rampart, the only mob I do not recomend using it on right away is Coincounter. As with my experiance , coincounter can proc 1000 tons very early in the fight and it dosent hurt to have sentinal ready when he dose, not that I ever needed it to hold hate. Also DEF/VIT > HP has been verified on the terms of physical damage . Again very early (like less then 30 seconds into the fight) coincounter proced 1000 tons or w/e its called. with no self buffs and food , he took my hp bar down to low yellow numbers shortly after hit me again and put me in the red, right away I threw up Ageious boon, and bought the whm more then enough time to get my hp full again. tbh not sure if it was becuase of increased block and block rate but Coincounter seemed easier to tank then oger as far as taking hits go, but thats just me.
I certainly still recomend HP as being on the priority list of stats to build for PLD but most certainly not near the top. Even after patch I still strongly recomend, DEF > VIT > MND > (with new materia) BLOCK RATE > DEX > HP , DEX and block rate is still questionable for me as to wich one take priority but both are realativly close

Why are you getting hit by 100-tonze attacks.

was testing survivability

yeah, I know, you can dodge em, thats how WARs are capable of tanking it, prolly the only reason why

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

was testing survivability

yeah, I know, you can dodge em, thats how WARs are capable of tanking it, prolly the only reason why

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No, WAR can straight tank it due to massive HP pool. even without an HP set a warrior will have enough hp to survive often, but with a double meld HP set +accessories and food im at 4800+ hp. save and alternate foresight and featherfoot for 100 ton swing and most of the time you dont ever get hit anyway. you could easily straight tank with war, but no reason to straight tank since its so easy to avoid 100 ton.

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Originally Posted by Mister-Wonderful

No, WAR can straight tank it due to massive HP pool. even without an HP set a warrior will have enough hp to survive often, but with a double meld HP set +accessories and food im at 4800+ hp. save and alternate foresight and featherfoot for 100 ton swing and most of the time you dont ever get hit anyway. you could easily straight tank with war, but no reason to straight tank since its so easy to avoid 100 ton.

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yeah but if Foresight miss...... You need to hope for a Melded HP gear.. XD PLD take less damage but more difficult make hate on Coincounter..
before and after patch always tanking on position for more dps with my war, but with the nerf if you don't have at least 4600hp+ you're dead if you don't parry 100-swing o.o"

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Originally Posted by Mister-Wonderful

No, WAR can straight tank it due to massive HP pool. even without an HP set a warrior will have enough hp to survive often, but with a double meld HP set +accessories and food im at 4800+ hp. save and alternate foresight and featherfoot for 100 ton swing and most of the time you dont ever get hit anyway. you could easily straight tank with war, but no reason to straight tank since its so easy to avoid 100 ton.

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/face palm

1) parry is NOT 100% why people talk about it like it is , is beyond me.

2) two teir 4 hp materias is 130ish hp max, thats about 1/4 of a normal attack on a moderatly armored tank... very bad use of materia slots and stupid waist of gil

3) sure you can tank on your war , but your gona bring two healers for war where a pld would only need one, and all soo you can do sorry damage and feel good about it? /facepalm

the point is, with server lag , somtimes running from 100-tonze is not an option and tbh you can kill him just as fast without running anyways soo why would you want to? oh wait thats right, if you dont you will die, hmm glad I tank on pld then

1) I think they jus mean foresight, it's either near 100% or 100% activation on next swing on you, featherfoot is not as high of a chance to activate though.

2) One piece of gear with HP materia is not really worthwhile, but stacked on 4 pieces it will help you eat 100 tonnze much better than other stats. Really only need HP gear for coincounter if you're straigt tanking...

3) I've solo healed a war tank straight tanking coincounter that used HP gear, and had no problem doing so. War tank does not mean you need 2 healers lol.

Since this is about PLD and testing and such.
Would other PLD mind testing this out?

Spirits Within

Combo Action: Phalanx
Increased damage with greater current HP.

Was doing some testing based on the wording of this. Fighting mobs @ the entrance to Zaharak. Lvl 50's. (the puglists, can't remember their name atm)

I just run AF gear which nets me around 3300 HP. My Sprits Within damage is around 900-950 and crits for about 1200 (I'm using Ifrits Blade)

My LS mate has a PLD HP build, which is around 3800. Sprits Within hits normal around 1200. Not sure on Crit Damage. (Using a Cobalt Winglet)

Our STR and MND values are pretty close (my MND is actually higher cause of AF gear)

But I wondered if anyone else is running Melded HP gear for PLD that could test this as well.

test what? there's not enough info. How would I know if my STR, and MND as well as other stats are the same as yours (or not). Were you in a pt or solo? What mobs were you fighting? What level were they? Did you have any buffs? Was anything cast on the mobs? and how many times did you do this? (a larger sample yields more accurate data)

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

/face palm

1) parry is NOT 100% why people talk about it like it is , is beyond me.

2) two teir 4 hp materias is 130ish hp max, thats about 1/4 of a normal attack on a moderatly armored tank... very bad use of materia slots and stupid waist of gil

3) sure you can tank on your war , but your gona bring two healers for war where a pld would only need one, and all soo you can do sorry damage and feel good about it? /facepalm

the point is, with server lag , somtimes running from 100-tonze is not an option and tbh you can kill him just as fast without running anyways soo why would you want to? oh wait thats right, if you dont you will die, hmm glad I tank on pld then

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You can easily get 4500+ HP on WAR with a few pieces of single-meld gear, AF, and food. That is all that is necessary to survive 100 ton swing. Featherfoot and Foresight have a very high probability to block swing. That's why you get HP above 4500 in case it actually gets through. WAR also has Sentinel and Vengeance which are guaranteed methods of damage reduction.

4 defensive abilities to lessen the damage and enough max HP to survive 100-ton swing defenseless is actually safer than a PLD tank. Faster kill speed also means less chances for something to go wrong.

I'm pretty certain that PLD cannot break the 4500 HP barrier without double melded HP on every slot. Using full heavy darklight, double-meld HP shield, HP accessories, and food I only get about 4300 HP. This means that you must save Divine Veil or Sentinel for taking 100 ton swing to the face, which makes PLD even more reliant on dodging attacks than WAR.

Too many people underestimate WAR's ability to reduce damage. Parry occurs very often with the new Rampage. Almost all bosses are slow-hitters which make Featherfoot and Foresight insanely good. WHM cures and regens are so powerful that the extra damage mitigation over time PLD gets over WAR is usually unnecessary even with just 1 WHM.

And yes, I've done speed runs in AV as both PLD and WAR. I feel like WAR still has the edge but both jobs can easily manage it now.

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Originally Posted by kro

And yes, I've done speed runs in AV as both PLD and WAR. I feel like WAR still has the edge but both jobs can easily manage it now.

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Honestly, in terms of boss fights, both tanks can do it. I'm not really sure what the debate about dodging coincounter is for. its easy to do, it doesn't matter if you get hit by swipe on either class cus it won't kill you outright (so if you're lagging or slow or w/e that's irrelevant) and both classes can easily force themselves to survive a few swings should they loose focus or be animation locked.

I would say warrior has the advantage simply because the trash pulls are way easier on warrior. More aoe threat makes all those group kills safer, easier, and faster. It CAN be done on pld, its just EASIER on warrior. To say that the tanks are balanced, it should be more or less the same in terms of group difficulty on both classes. Just as the bosses themselves are now: both classes use different approaches and have different tools but they can both hold threat in high dps situations on bosses, though pld's initial threat still seems soft compared to warrior's.

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Originally Posted by kro

You can easily get 4500+ HP on WAR with a few pieces of single-meld gear, AF, and food. That is all that is necessary to survive 100 ton swing. Featherfoot and Foresight have a very high probability to block swing. That's why you get HP above 4500 in case it actually gets through. WAR also has Sentinel and Vengeance which are guaranteed methods of damage reduction.

4 defensive abilities to lessen the damage and enough max HP to survive 100-ton swing defenseless is actually safer than a PLD tank. Faster kill speed also means less chances for something to go wrong.

I'm pretty certain that PLD cannot break the 4500 HP barrier without double melded HP on every slot. Using full heavy darklight, double-meld HP shield, HP accessories, and food I only get about 4300 HP. This means that you must save Divine Veil or Sentinel for taking 100 ton swing to the face, which makes PLD even more reliant on dodging attacks than WAR.

Too many people underestimate WAR's ability to reduce damage. Parry occurs very often with the new Rampage. Almost all bosses are slow-hitters which make Featherfoot and Foresight insanely good. WHM cures and regens are so powerful that the extra damage mitigation over time PLD gets over WAR is usually unnecessary even with just 1 WHM.

And yes, I've done speed runs in AV as both PLD and WAR. I feel like WAR still has the edge but both jobs can easily manage it now.

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This

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

2) two teir 4 hp materias is 130ish hp max, thats about 1/4 of a normal attack on a moderatly armored tank... very bad use of materia slots and stupid waist of gil

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Didnt really spend hardly anything making HP set. Its called Spiritbond. Hardly a waste of materia slots its not hard to have multiple sets of gear for any occasion.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

3) sure you can tank on your war , but your gona bring two healers for war where a pld would only need one, and all soo you can do sorry damage and feel good about it? /facepalm

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what is this i dont even

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

the point is, with server lag , somtimes running from 100-tonze is not an option and tbh you can kill him just as fast without running anyways soo why would you want to? oh wait thats right, if you dont you will die, hmm glad I tank on pld then

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I dont get this "server lag" that you speak of, its very obvious when he readies abilities and really dont have problems avoiding abilities like 100 ton swing. HP set is a safety net if all else fails and I eat a swing which is very rare.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

test what? there's not enough info. How would I know if my STR, and MND as well as other stats are the same as yours (or not). Were you in a pt or solo? What mobs were you fighting? What level were they? Did you have any buffs? Was anything cast on the mobs? and how many times did you do this? (a larger sample yields more accurate data)

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1) LVL 50 Pugilist Mob @ the First gate to Zaharak.
2) No Buffs - No food
3) Solo
4) Your stats VS my stats shouldn't matter too much. The comparison is only in HP - VS - HP to see what gives the best increase on Spirits Within. If at all. (i.e. 3000HP on PLD vs 3600HP on PLD)
5) You will need to try and keep your HP full though, which is easy with Aegis Boon as blocked damage is less than the HP you recover from the skill.

Not this shit again.

Paladin still sucks.

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Originally Posted by Madruk

Not this shit again.

Paladin still sucks.

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pfft. gtfo.

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Originally Posted by PiedPiper

Honestly, in terms of boss fights, both tanks can do it. I'm not really sure what the debate about dodging coincounter is for.

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You summed it up pretty nicely, in your paragraphs. Coincounter is mostly used as a reference point because 100-tonze swing is one of the few potentially fatal one-shot moves out there, and even though it's easy to avoid by anyone it's a reoccurring move that shows some solid difference in the amount of damage the two jobs can take within a short amount of time.

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Originally Posted by Sasagawa

Simply put,

SE is moving in the right direction

With the nerf to war emnity is now something of a skill to control especially on long fights DPS jobs need to manage their hate generation and its a pleasure to see some players stepping up to that task, others still blame the tank if they can't max dps.

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I disagree with this section. WAR hate wasn't really nerfed, its just not nearly as fraudulent as it was. All the "nerf" did was expose the frauds that mashed cooldowns. To me, WAR enmity generation still feels superior compared to PLD, even with similar levels of micromanagement.

That being said, SE is indeed on the right track, however the playerbase is going to be fighting them every step of the way. DPS classes have been conditioned to start blasting as soon as the name turns red, and its not likely to change any time soon.