What do you think is the differences in souls?

Besides aetherical density what do you think is the difference in the four different kinds of souls? I say four as there's the presundered, the sundered Ancient, the sundered new-life, and the post sundered new life. I'm not including Dragons or other alien unsundered life as we don't know what happens to their souls. I also feel that it'd be a little silly to think there's been zero new souls made/born after the sundering. Especially if we have beings like the Pixies and Fauth who are born from souls who didn't return to the Atherial Sea.

For instance are non Ancient souls i.e the new life created by Zodiark able to awaken to the Echo even though they didn't witness the Finals Days, but witnessed the sundering?

The Echo is seemingly awakened by a reincarnated Ancient soul witnessing something that awakens echoes of their past lives, often via traumatic events like a Calamity, or a meteor shower causing a flashback to the Final Days. Going by current evidence, it would seem that souls created post-Sundering can't gain the Echo (leaving aside the Resonant), but it hasn't really come up.

Dragons are effectively unsundered, since, well, they weren't here for the Sundering. However, they live on a much slower time scale than the Ancients did. Theoretically, the only thing stopping a wyrmling like Ohl Dee from becoming a nigh-godlike being like Midgardsormr is time, but it's a lot of time. That said, a dragon couldn't possess the Echo because there's nothing for them to be an echo of, unless somehow an Ancient soul fragment reincarnated into a dragon.

The only other confirmed aliens we've met so far are Gilgamesh, Omega, and the YoRHa androids. Gilgamesh is hard to call, but Omega and the androids, being machines, don't really qualify at all, what with not having souls. (And the Ea in Ultima Thule, but as they're nothing but aetherial souls......)

I think, Echo aside (which is a separate but very known thing that we don't need to discuss), the main difference is aetheric capacity. Ancient souls (and presumably bigger boys like dragons or aliens like Gilgamesh) have a lot more aether to work with; however, that doesn't mean they're inherently superhuman, because they still need to learn a way to use that aether. The devs mentioned in the latest live letter that someone born with an Ancient soul wouldn't be necessarily all that different, but might be a bit more powerful. I take that to mean that most techniques you can learn in the Source just aren't designed to make use of more aether than your average Joe can use, so if you teach someone with an Ancient soul thaumaturgy you're not gonna see someone all too much stronger.

The main soul-related question bouncing around my mind lately is the realization that, if souls are cycled within the lifestream of the nearest planet (which is usually the one they died on), somewhere out there are regular-ass people with Bahamut and Ratatoskr's souls.

A dragon's aether is stored in their eyes, and Thordan and his Knights Twelve devoured Ratatoskr's eyes to gain her power, so her soul might not have even made it intact to the lifestream. Which is a lot more disturbing written out than it was in my head. Bahamut and Nidhogg could be out there, though. Some of Nidhogg's power is still bonded to Estinien, but we did explicitly see his spirit move on after the Final Steps of Faith, so who knows.

Of course, all of this only applies if dragon souls follow the same rules as everyone else's, which we just don't know.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

The main soul-related question bouncing around my mind lately is the realization that, if souls are cycled within the lifestream of the nearest planet (which is usually the one they died on), somewhere out there are regular-ass people with Bahamut and Ratatoskr's souls.

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Are we absolutely certain souls from outside Eitherys are reborn as native species though? Can dragons from the Dragonstar not just reincarnate as another dragon if they die as Eitherys? If not, honestly that just adds a whole new layer of fucked up onto the cake. I know I wouldn't be pleased to be reborn as the species that arranged my death, especially if I happened to be something as prideful as a dragon.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

A dragon's aether is stored in their eyes, and Thordan and his Knights Twelve devoured Ratatoskr's eyes to gain her power, so her soul might not have even made it intact to the lifestream. Which is a lot more disturbing written out than it was in my head. Bahamut and Nidhogg could be out there, though. Some of Nidhogg's power is still bonded to Estinien, but we did explicitly see his spirit move on after the Final Steps of Faith, so who knows.

Of course, all of this only applies if dragon souls follow the same rules as everyone else's, which we just don't know.

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The way I see it, either Ratatoskr passed into the Lifestream when Thordan and his Knights Twelve died or Ratatoskr is quite literally a part of every soul in Ishgard now. Which is heavily ironic, now that you think about it.

I don't think that souls in this particular in-game universe behave the same way that many of us would intuitively expect. Your sense of 'self' is largely a function of your memories, and most memories don't remain on a soul after it's returned to the lifestream without a good reason (i.e. powerful unresolved regrets, or Kairos' aetheric manipulations). Although I wonder what happens to all these memories. Perhaps there's a lifestream primal like FFVII's Minerva who sits around jotting all of them down somewhere.

Either way, if a soul does come back and there isn't one of those extenuating causes for retained memories as above, then it's a completely new entity. Who knows, perhaps a dragon soul might just spontaneously fragment in the Lifestream and spontaneously turn into 14 Elezen the next time around. I don't think that the native/alien distinction really matters either way, because it's just aether at the end of the day. I seem to recall something in one of the UT cutscenes that talks about lifesteams in other worlds, but I can't track it down at the moment. I might have a look later.

Yet we have what happened with Titania. We beat them and are soon reborn as a different silver haired pixie that has memories/a sense of having been the Titania we beat. Which is already defies what we're to assume is supposed to happen. You die and yo go to the life stream where for most your body and mental aether gets unfused from your soul aether before hoping back in line to be reborn. Except EW and even when Midgardsormr goes to take his nap make it come off as you also have the option to go no I'm just going to float about for a bit. It also brings into question as to why the first's lifestream as far as we know works differently since unless pixie and fuath equivalents are in Maracidya or the New World we haven't encountered beings who are born from souls of children who died traumatic deaths or by those who've drowned.

I'm not sure if Omega's race don't have souls as if I remember correctly they were once flesh and blood but chose to do what Reapers from Mass Effect did to organic life that they made serve them. Which is slowly replacing said organic mater over to synthetic mater. I also believe that Omega at the end gained a soul or at least regained one if they had lost it when completing the conversion to becoming what we'd call robots. We know that things they create can gain one since Alpha some how was granted one.

Meteion said that souls sploosh back into the nearest working planetary lifestream. Even if it's aether at the end of the day most known alien souls are unsundered. That's a lot of aether to shove into a body let alone just float about the lifestream since we're already seeing what the sudden loss of Zodiark is doing to the different aetherical rivers.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Ancient souls (and presumably bigger boys like dragons or aliens like Gilgamesh) have a lot more aether to work with

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Say, is Gilgamesh have a heavy-aetheric density, or is more capable of manipulating dynamis?
I have been wondering about this for a long. He might be just like Meteion or any other alien lifeform.
This also opens the question in my mind about dragons as well. If they're aetheric-rich then what caused it to be the case? Unless their world is also aetheric-rich

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Originally Posted by Kranel_San

Say, is Gilgamesh have a heavy-aetheric density, or is more capable of manipulating dynamis?
I have been wondering about this for a long. He might be just like Meteion or any other alien lifeform.
This also opens the question in my mind about dragons as well. If they're aetheric-rich then what caused it to be the case? Unless their world is also aetheric-rich

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It's hard to seriously ask any questions about Gilgamesh, because he's a joke character that plays by the rules of an entirely different story written decades before this one. And even then, he played pretty damn loose.

I was going to give a vague power level based on what he's fought, but even that's inconsistent; he's consistently a match for an 8-person team in 14, but he was also an equal to characters in Dissidia 012, most of which are the same people Y'shtola was an equal to in Dissidia NT. He fought a team of four in 1, 5 and 6, a team of three in 12 and 13-2, a team of five in The After Years...

Gilgamesh also hasn't shown up since the reveal of dynamis, so we've yet to have a chance to actually compare. But I'm not holding my breath on actually finding out.

There's really no telling with Gilgamesh Greg. A lot of the indicators we see point to him being the Gilgamesh Greg from FF5, still galavanting around the multiverse via the Rift, rather than being some FFXIV-flavored knockoff like Shinryu was. He might not even adhere to the same set of physical and metaphysical laws.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

There's really no telling with Gilgamesh Greg. A lot of the indicators we see point to him being the Gilgamesh Greg from FF5, still galavanting around the multiverse via the Rift, rather than being some FFXIV-flavored knockoff like Shinryu was. He might not even adhere to the same set of physical and metaphysical laws.

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It probably won't ever happen, but I wish they would explore the multiverse of FF seriously and beyond Dissidia games.
But yeah that's probably a fan wish that would never happen.

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Originally Posted by Kranel_San

It probably won't ever happen, but I wish they would explore the multiverse of FF seriously and beyond Dissidia games.
But yeah that's probably a fan wish that would never happen.

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The closest they got was The After Years, where they pitched the idea that the crystals in Final Fantasy games are seeds of an alien race manipulating the planet's development for experimentation or something or other--look, The After Years wasn't very good, I don't remember its multiverse pitch all too clearly, only that it wasn't picked up by any other FF game, crossover or no. Which is probably a good thing, because TAY also showed the problems of making a game grappling with that multiverse 'seriously'. Namely, that it shrinks down the other games and treats them as lesser than whatever the one doing that story is in; TAY's optional bosses all but directly declare that all the other 2D FF worlds faced down those same beings and lost. Which is absolutely insulting to me as an FFV fan, because you can't tell me that there's ever a problem that Cecil and company could deal with that Bartz and his friends couldn't take down LEAGUES quicker and easier.

Dissidia works because it structures its story in a way that everyone gets at least one chance to be cool, and the final battle can be taken up by anyone, so the only favoritism going on is your own. ...but also that it doesn't take itself too seriously, which lets it have Shantotto and Ultimecia hurl insults at each other for two minutes and let that be their moment in the sun. Which is also an accurate approach to the series; remember, the game with Aerith's death is the same one that has Wall Market.

My mind keeps on wondering about what kind of effect the rejoinings really have on souls made post sundering or at least made post 2nd sacrifice. As I doubt the planet stopped making new souls. We know that not everyone person on the source or the shards has a soul of an ancient inside as there are some people at least of the source and on the first that witnessed multiple star showers events. Yet Thancred, Y'shtola, Urianger and Ryne haven't awoken to the echo even though they've all seen at least two star showers. What we don't know is how dense any post sundering souls are. Or what seven calamities do to them? As they wouldn't have shards of themselves being popped back in.

Beq Lugg notes that the rest of the Scions have denser souls than citizens of the First, so they still got another piece added back after every Rejoining. My theory is they're the product of the souls born after the Ancients began sacrificing to Zodiark but before the Sundering. As the Echo is awakened by a soul remembering the trauma of the Final Days (well, the first Final Days), they can't awaken to it because they were never there.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I don't think that souls in this particular in-game universe behave the same way that many of us would intuitively expect. Your sense of 'self' is largely a function of your memories, and most memories don't remain on a soul after it's returned to the lifestream without a good reason (i.e. powerful unresolved regrets, or Kairos' aetheric manipulations). Although I wonder what happens to all these memories. Perhaps there's a lifestream primal like FFVII's Minerva who sits around jotting all of them down somewhere.

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Seems that you can take memories in, you can't take them back out (beyond something creating a stain too stubborn for the lifestream bath to remove, like the memory equivalent of red wine on a white shirt.)

I did get the impression that you retain your memories and your sense of self, and possibly all your previous memories from other lives as well, while you're in there. Moving on/sinking deeper into the aetherial sea seemed to be at least somewhat of a choice, and you could choose to hold off on it (at least for a bit) if you wanted to.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Beq Lugg notes that the rest of the Scions have denser souls than citizens of the First, so they still got another piece added back after every Rejoining. My theory is they're the product of the souls born after the Ancients began sacrificing to Zodiark but before the Sundering. As the Echo is awakened by a soul remembering the trauma of the Final Days (well, the first Final Days), they can't awaken to it because they were never there.

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It's possible that a soul is just a soul and they all start out at equal density, it's only Etheirys unique split nature that results in different densities on the different worlds.
Essentially, whatever process it is that leads to the creation of a soul is not sundered, but the process that places said souls into living beings is.

In theory a fully rejoined but not fully restored world would see all the sundered being born with proper full fat 14/14 souls.

In 'Tales from the Shadows: Through His Eyes,' Hyth describes the soul bound to the Phoinix as 'resisting the pull of the Underworld' on account for its regret. Free floating souls without a vessel likely have a natural pull that draws them back into the lifestream. I imagine that the only ones that tend to linger are the ones that still have some unfinished business of some sort.

I don't think that you're ordinarily supposed to retain memories of the soul's previous lives, although Soul Crystals seem to help with this if you have the correct affinity, which is probably why the player character learns combat arts so easily.

I'm curious to know what happens to the original soul when an Ascian takes over someone's body, though. Do the two souls merge and share their memories, or does the original soul just get overridden unless it's of comparable aetheric density?

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I'm curious to know what happens to the original soul when an Ascian takes over someone's body, though. Do the two souls merge and share their memories, or does the original soul just get overridden unless it's of comparable aetheric density?

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Well, the most present example of this we've got is Thancred and Lahabrea; Lahabrea stole his body, but it seemed like Thancred was pretty okay afterwards. That seems pretty clearly 'cram 'em down and override everything'. As to whether they had access to the host's memories... I guess the question there is 'how good do you think Lahabrea is at improv?'

Huh. This sounds a lot like the Four Souls theory of Shinto mythology.

There, they're split into the hostile soul, the harmonious soul, the happy soul, and the mysterious soul -- all being part of one, combined person.

Makes you wonder if Emet did the stuffing down method or if Solus actually died on that one mission and Emet took over the body. Elidibus, the black masked and ShB/EW Fandaniel at least that we know of were manipulating dead bodies. No clue about Iygthorm, Nabriales or the few Ascians we physically deal with was doing the soul squish/old school possession or if most were doing the dead body snatch.

Hermes when we deal with him as let's kill everything Fandaniel and later as Amon does suggest that remembering past lives does actually happen. Or he probably wouldn't call Amon being his favorite. Do we think the Dorthral have people with soul sight? As we've been told they have a way of knowing who just got reborn even if the Dorthal was born into a different clan. It seems odd that even though that ability is talked as though it's rare amongst the Ancients that it would just disappear. Even in Elpis there seemed to be a few that could tell. Just not as strongly as Emet or Hythlodaeus.