How would it feel if instead of kaiten, shinten was gone?

just curious. i am on the boat that both these skills are important to sam kenki gauge.
but i do wonder not only how the job feels but how the people would react if shinten was gone instead.

Possibly the same if they were to have shifted potencies around like with the kaiten removal. Otherwise, for me personally, I typically only used it as a buffer to Yukikaze.

I was one of the suboptimal idiots that used kaiten on Gekko and Kasha, apparently.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ralt21

just curious. i am on the boat that both these skills are important to sam kenki gauge.
but i do wonder not only how the job feels but how the people would react if shinten was gone instead.

---

Like you say, they are both important for the job feel and Kenki management, so I imagine a similar uproar would happen if Shinten was removed. Moreover, Shinten is also needed in order to make sure you do not waste kenki because you can only use so many Kaitens on iaijutsus a minute. I would be happy if they added more tools that made Kenki management more interesting, on top of kaiten and shinten, as opposed to dumbing it down starting in 6.0 with the change of Ikishoten's cooldown to 2 minutes, reducing Kenki cost of Senei/Guren and moving kenki generation from positionals to flat Kenki generation from combos.

Meh, Shinten is just a whatever gauge spender. Kaiten actually interacts with your GCD rotation. Spending your gauge by buffing all your normal GCDs with Kaiten could serve the exact same purpose for your burst phase.

That would result in spamming Kaiten on Gekko/Kasha which wouldn't be that much better than what we have currently. If they removed Shinten to introduce a new, different spender then I'd be fine with it.

Removal of either is bad

Kaiten should consume 20 Kenki before every " Higanbana, Midare Setsugekka and Ogi Namikiri and Tenka Goken for AoE " to amp-up the hit. Excess Kenki will be awkward to manage with the only other skill being Hissatsu: Gyoten on a 10 second recast only draining 10 Kenki and 25 from Hissatsu: Senei, creating awkward moments where where we will Kaiten buff skills we wouldn't normally buff i.e " Gekko/Kasha/Yukikaze " etc.

With the current available skill-set and rotation, Kenki management with some form of Depth requires " both ". 1 without the other will just feel unnecessarily Hallow.

One would assume if kaiten stayed and shinten was removed that kenki would also go away and kaiten would just become a CD as well as guren and senei. At that point I wouldn't really be all that remiss about it honestly because shinten is kind of whatever. Its animation isn't that great and it doesn't really add any value like kaiten did. That said, I'm not exactly in favor or removing it either. I'd like to see it get upgraded to a new animation and I'd like to see kenki have more value as well so we're not just spamming shinten all the time and I'd obviously would like to see kaiten returned and the auto crit garbage to go away.

I fully admit to have no attachment or love for shinten. The animation is disruptive to the SAM kit in my opinion and doesn't fit in at all. And the move is also the unfortunate target of ire in the current moment due to the loss of Kaiten.


That said, I'll reiterate what others have posted as well and state that even though my attachment to kaiten in comparison to shinten is like night and day, both kaiten and shinten serve a specific purpose and the removal of shinten would have resulted in issues as well.

Not the exact same issues as Kaiten, but there would be issues. Kaiten was the strategic use of kenki, while shinten was the kenki resource dump. Either served a specific purpose in which the other doesn't directly or effectively replace.



That stated, I am all for them adjusting the Shintent animation to be more visually fluid in the SAM rotation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

Meh, Shinten is just a whatever gauge spender. Kaiten actually interacts with your GCD rotation. Spending your gauge by buffing all your normal GCDs with Kaiten could serve the exact same purpose for your burst phase.

---

It could, and number wise may not really be any different...

But I personally would feel kaiten would lose some of its impact (game play feel wise) if it was just a automatic press for every single thing (if kaiten was actually permitted to, and that was what you were suggesting).

While I don't think would have been nearly as grating as shinten spam. I don't believe kaiten spam would be great either.


IMO, the situation of variance and options in Kenki spenders itself is what makes the SAM kit and the kenki gauge interesting and have meaning. Removal of either skill takes away from that regardless.
I just believe Kaiten shines as the most interactive and core skill of the kenki move list...

I don't remember who the kendoka was, but if they read this maybe they can enlighten me.

I don't know what this technique is called, but it's basically a horizontal cut at the opponent's torso as you dash "through" (past) them to their left, followed by a covered turn as a blind guard.

That's probably a shite description, but hopefully people know what I'm talking about (wishful thinking).

I kinda like the idea of that concept replacing Shinten.

Since such an ability would displace you to the other side of your target, you'd have to be prepositioned to end up where you want to be - this could mean avoiding using it while behind a boss to avoid getting cleaved by moving in front of it, could mean intentionally moving in front of it so you end up behind it if using prior to Gekko, or could mean using it specifically from a flank to end up at the other flank if using prior to Kasha. Depending on timing, it could effectively be a variable positional (or not matter at all, depending on timing) - could also be a cool way to eek out some quick positioning, especially on larger bosses, and be used specifically for its movement facet in some cases. Thoughts?



EDIT: Still dunno what it's called, but found a single decent example: https://youtu.be/A1hUUwp4Kkw?t=460

You can see how the technique in this [unfortunately only one] example strikes at the torso while moving past the opponent and does a blind guard as he turns back to square with his opponent. I'm imagining a strike that dashes through the enemy at Gyoten speed with this technique as the basic idea.

To be honest, removing Shinten would be an extremely bad idea.

In fact you generate just what you need in order to use Kaiten, This will lead to some "Dark Arts" like spam button to upgrade other skills which don't make much sense.

Kaiten was removed, and the majority of the player base tend to vouch against it. Even if I understand the point behind that, we must not forget that 6.2 may be a Samourai Rework patch.

Do they need to supress Kaiten in 6.1 just like that ? Hard to say if you take everything into account. It could be "No", because they could have done that in 6.2 by reworking the Samourai compltely. It could be "Yes", in order to get feedback about the difference between Samourai With Kaiten, and without.

Honestly, I think they could've done that using an other way. Maybe by asking the community directly like : "Hey samourai, Kaiten is difficult to work with in the dev point of view, what can we possibly do to get that skill off ?"

Shinten/Kyuten should upgrade into Senei/Guren. Lose the CD. Make it pure Kenki Spender. Since you only spend Kenki on 4 skills? 2 of which share a CD and have a 2min recast. Trash.

Shinten is pretty garbage right now and is only used when you will overcap or dump it with 3 Shinten/Kyuten before you do your Senei/Guren.

As much crap as Shinten has received lately, it's not a bad ability per se. What makes it bad is when it's the *only* ability you use with Kenki(since Senei/Guren could effectively be removed and placed into Ikishoten with 0 effective change to how either of them work). Kaiten is important, but it's the interplay between Kaiten, Shinten (and before 6.0) the rest of our kit that makes SAM an engaging job. The goal was always to get as many Shinten's out as possible while still using Kaiten on every Iaijutsu. That was the "perfection" that every serious SAM player was trying to achieve, and it requires both the existence of Shinten and Kaiten to bring back that kind of engagement.

Shinten's bashed because as of right now it's one of the only things we can do with our kenki. Removing shinten but keeping kaiten is still going to present the same problem, because both are pieces of a whole. If you remove one, the other suffers. No, what they should've done was add other kenki spenders going from 80 to 90 that interacted with the kenki and sen portions. Stressing the importance of management of both to make you a better player is what would give samurais something more interesting. Keeping seigan in would go a long way in that, making merciful eyes a kenki spender (but do something else) would probably help. Making meditate not rely on us standing there to channel it...These are things that change the flow of kenki and would be interesting ways to play with the kit that do more than collect stickers.

Remove Shinten and Kyuten. Reduce Senei and Guren recast time, remove Senei and Guren recast share, remove senei and guren kenki cost, and treat them as weapon skills so we can use kaiten on them.

This way Kaiten is used to buff our big hits, the Iajutsu, Ogi, Senei, and Guren.

If you have to just rework Shinten/Kyuten and have it upgrade to Senei/Guren. I simply just dont want to spam Shinten because it simply does not feel good. I would rather Dark Arts Kaiten.

Removing either would just highlight separately similar issues. Honestly, the best they could do would be to dial back the design of SAM to what it was in ShB. It still had all the kenki spenders and different costs, as well as earning kenki through positionals. I didn't even notice the change in EW because I was always going for positionals to maximize my gauge and used True North every time I saw that wasn't going to happen quickly.

Either they make the gauge matter again or they listen to feedback and consolidate Senei and Guren into Shinten and Kyuten under certain effect buffs like Ikishoten.

Thats all I want from the job. Make it fun again and make its kit have something to manage. The job was never hard for it.

One problem I would say that's been highlighted with the 6.1 changes is how fast kenki can be generated. Even outside of ikishoten, you basically get a shinten's worth of kenki every full kasha/gekko combo. Sort of makes it a commodity and thus, not very fun to spend. Especially now with kaiten not being there, having to shinten so often is just more annoying than meaningful.

It might cause problems with turning Kaiten into a Dark Arts skill that is used too often (assuming we traded Shinten to get Kaiten back) but I wouldn't miss Shinten much if it vanished tomorrow. I'd rather dump excess Kenki gauge into a powerful single hit like Guren or Senei.

Weirdly though, Kyuten doesn't feel bad to spam, I enjoy dumping that into a pack of trash mobs. I guess because it's an AoE?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric_Thorne

It might cause problems with turning Kaiten into a Dark Arts skill that is used too often (assuming we traded Shinten to get Kaiten back) but I wouldn't miss Shinten much if it vanished tomorrow. I'd rather dump excess Kenki gauge into a powerful single hit like Guren or Senei.

Weirdly though, Kyuten doesn't feel bad to spam, I enjoy dumping that into a pack of trash mobs. I guess because it's an AoE?

---

I'd rather have both Kaiten and Shinten, but only Kaiten would be vastly better than only Shinten since Kaiten is part of your rotation - it would actually add a little complexity to our rotation because we'd want to burn extra kenki on Kaiten Kasha or Kaiten Gekko instead of just dumping whenever we want.

As for Kyuten, I actually find it vastly more enjoyable than Shinten as well, and for me at least, I think it's 100% because of how well the animation flows with our AOE GCDs. The same can't be said for Guren, which is why I dislike it (but I love Senei).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ralt21

just curious. i am on the boat that both these skills are important to sam kenki gauge.
but i do wonder not only how the job feels but how the people would react if shinten was gone instead.

---

I guess we would do more Kaiten then, like actively using Kaiten within the 1-2-3 Combos
it would lead to too much Kenki to use for, which Shinten and Kyuten are there to address^^

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Shinten/Kyuten should upgrade into Senei/Guren. Lose the CD. Make it pure Kenki Spender. Since you only spend Kenki on 4 skills? 2 of which share a CD and have a 2min recast. Trash.

Shinten is pretty garbage right now and is only used when you will overcap or dump it with 3 Shinten/Kyuten before you do your Senei/Guren.

---

hmm I won't like that because Kyuten is a Quick Circle AoE and Guren is a Line AoE, while true it may save buttons, I always line up Iki with Senei or Guren because both have a 2minute cool down ^^

Or, just remove Third Eye. Nothing about it fits the SAM fantasy, not even its animation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StriderZessei

Or, just remove Third Eye. Nothing about it fits the SAM fantasy, not even its animation.

---

plzno - I absolutely love being rewarded with bonus dps for reacting to unavoidable AOE - I wish every dps had something like this. Felt better when the reward was Seigan instead of just bonus kenki, but still.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StriderZessei

Or, just remove Third Eye. Nothing about it fits the SAM fantasy, not even its animation.

---

The concept of third eye or inner eye is deeply rooted in the history of Kendo and other forms of martial arts with the idea of it taking in not only the opponent's face but also the opponents entire body. Enzan No Metsuke would be another derivative of it which basically means gazing at the mountain far away. You're taking in the whole picture instead of focusing on a specific thing.

This is why both in FFXI and FFXIV the concept of third eye is rooted in a defensive skill. So it fits perfectly fine within the fantasy of a samurai. So no, I'd rather they didn't remove a useful skill that not only gives a defensive buff against unavoidable raid wide attacks, but also gives me a dps increase by generating resources.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StriderZessei

Or, just remove Third Eye. Nothing about it fits the SAM fantasy, not even its animation.

---

Removing what little interactions we have left with the Kenki resource sounds horrible. Third Eye also feels very rewarding to proc. Sacrifice Third-eye to regain Kaiten? Would I if I could? No, I don't want to compromise on them ruining our job further.

The removal of Kaiten should not require us to bargain it back at the cost of another skill. It just doesn't make for a better Samurai job nor fixes anything. Kaiten was removed because -> and there we are, why? To fix what? Cause we didn't end up with a better Samurai job design.

Suggesting a plethora of solutions and alternatives is fine? yet won't make sense unless we know what it's for. Since Kaiten removal made zero sense, we don't know what the heck we're suggesting it for. Be it Shinten, Third-Eye or any button Skill removal or fusing we may present.

• Action Bloat issue?
• Button Bloat issue?
• APM issue?
• Making room for new Skills?
• Development restrictions?
• Rotation changing restrictions?
• For Samurai Overhaul?
• Who even asked for these changes?
• Square dev's just hates Samurai?

I have no idea...

Ruining how fulfilling, fun and rewarding a job feels to play with removing a singular Skill... I have not been this let down with class changes throughout many mmorpgs in a long while as I have with this change. Idk how high it ranks in FFXIV fuck ups, but i'd wager that Kaiten Removal in terms of Job changes, has got to be up there...simply cause it didn't took a rework or an overhaul, it took them negative braincells to remove Kaiten and a ruin a Job overnight for so many.

Keep Shinten, Give us back Kaiten

It'd still be a blow, but a lesser one so long as they gave further use cases for Kaiten (rather than allowing its ppgcd to dip even below Gyoten, as would be the case if Kaiten were left as is despite this).

But, while it's a decent little thought experiment, the ultimatum is a false one, anyways. SAM had no "action bloat", there were far better choices for consolidation if button bloat were the "cause", and Kaiten wasn't merely a bloated extra action but instead Kenki's keystone element.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cjbeagle

Felt better when the reward was Seigan instead of just bonus kenki, but still.

---

I miss the bonus animations, and therefore would also have been cool with Shinten simply upgrading into Seigan and Kyuten into another upgraded-by-proc skill, but the Kenki generation is far more flexible than only being able to spend that bonus potency towards reducing the cost of our next single-target Kenki filler.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I miss the bonus animations, and therefore would also have been cool with Shinten simply upgrading into Seigan and Kyuten into another upgraded-by-proc skill, but the Kenki generation is far more flexible than only being able to spend that bonus potency towards reducing the cost of our next single-target Kenki filler.

---

At last, another who shares my Seigan idea!