Confusing Fact about the Races/Spoken

I read somewhere here in the Lore Forum that the races from each shard have independently evolved.

Should I understand it that the races that we can play (Hyur, Lalafell, Elezen etc.) didn't exist yet pre-Sundering or that they only existed after the Sundering? Wouldn't that mean that Dwarves, Galdjent etc. from the First coincidentally emerged to parallel the likes of the Lalafell, Roegadyn etc. from the Source?

Or did I happen to have a misunderstanding and all the races already existed pre-Sundering and then the split (Source + 13 Shards) happened?

Yoshida has said in an interview or q&a that the speciation we’ve seen has evolved since the sundering. I assume Oda agrees? It makes little sense to me precisely bc the idea of humanity on each shard branching into the same subspecies due to random evolution beggars belief, but it seems to be the answer. At least for the moment. I mean it’s not actually specified in the game yet, so I think it’s up for changes till it is.

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Originally Posted by symbiote129

I read somewhere here in the Lore Forum that the races from each shard have independently evolved.

Should I understand it that the races that we can play (Hyur, Lalafell, Elezen etc.) didn't exist yet pre-Sundering or that they only existed after the Sundering? Wouldn't that mean that Dwarves, Galdjent etc. from the First coincidentally emerged to parallel the likes of the Lalafell, Roegadyn etc. from the Source?

Or did I happen to have a misunderstanding and all the races already existed pre-Sundering and then the split (Source + 13 Shards) happened?

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There was quite a bit of time between the original Final Days and the Sundering.
New life had started to appear after the sacrifices used to summon Zodiark.
Some wanted to sacrifice much of both this new life and remaining Ancients to have Zodiark restore the world as it was. Others disagreed and summoned Hydaelyn, after which the Sundering happened.

So either the various races we know of were part of this new life that had started to grow, or the races were created as part of the Sundering.

That they would have evolved post-Sundering and ended up so similar between different shards is too implausible to be taken seriously.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

That they would have evolved post-Sundering and ended up so similar between different shards is too implausible to be taken seriously.

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This is what I somehow got from the interview too as well, hence this thread question.
I thought it was quite logical in my head that the playable races/some beast tribes happened to exist before the split (Sundering) because of the First's races' similarity with the Source's races. Until the story devs come out of the left field with this info, totally blindsided me. That the First's races similar appearance to the Source's races is because of evolution/coincidence was like giving me metaphorical brain concussion.

I always tought that rather than "evolved" the ancients were deformed into the player races by the sundering, so since they were splint into equal parts, they took the same forms in each shards.

My reading, based on the dev answer of essentially intelligently-directed evolution, is basically that after the Sundering, the species we call 'Ancients' existed but were no longer biologically feasible; in a land of thinner aether, a body of that size and ability couldn't sustain. So using those last remaining magics perhaps semi-consciously, they developed themselves into the races we're familiar with. Perhaps including some extras that didn't survive, or gradually bred together.

The sahagin are definitely the descendants of the guys from Elpis who were really into sharks.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

The sahagin are definitely the descendants of the guys from Elpis who were really into sharks.

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I'm more inclined to believe the sahagin ARE the "sharks" as in anthropomorphic fish creations, since we hear in Elpis some ancients discussing how some other ancient created the Lupin, implying that the beast races are ancient creations rather than sundered

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Originally Posted by Luizgazen

I'm more inclined to believe the sahagin ARE the "sharks" as in anthropomorphic fish creations, since we hear in Elpis some ancients discussing how some other ancient created the Lupin, implying that the beast races are ancient creations rather than sundered

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Well, remember that there aren't actual distinctions between the 'spoken' races and 'beast' races, it's 100% arbitrary and fueled by social desire to designate a 'lesser' class of people. In fact, remember that in the First the Amal'jaa equivalents were treated equally and it was the lalafel equivalents that were treated as 'the beast tribe'.

But I do think that it's entirely possible that there were people who, when trying to define this new form for themselves, landed on one that they had some memory of rather than completely out of whole cloth. I mean, if you decide you wanna be a wolfman, and you remember seeing a wolfman before, your resulting image is probably gonna resemble that wolfman you saw.

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Originally Posted by Luizgazen

I'm more inclined to believe the sahagin ARE the "sharks" as in anthropomorphic fish creations, since we hear in Elpis some ancients discussing how some other ancient created the Lupin, implying that the beast races are ancient creations rather than sundered

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Very possible. We know that one of the beast races - the Ixal - were created later as a result of Allagan genetic engineering.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Well, remember that there aren't actual distinctions between the 'spoken' races and 'beast' races, it's 100% arbitrary and fueled by social desire to designate a 'lesser' class of people. In fact, remember that in the First the Amal'jaa equivalents were treated equally and it was the lalafel equivalents that were treated as 'the beast tribe'.

But I do think that it's entirely possible that there were people who, when trying to define this new form for themselves, landed on one that they had some memory of rather than completely out of whole cloth. I mean, if you decide you wanna be a wolfman, and you remember seeing a wolfman before, your resulting image is probably gonna resemble that wolfman you saw.

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Basically, all of the Sapient races of FFXIV evolved from the Ancients? Honestly, that's pretty fascinating if you ask me.

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Originally Posted by Strongfat900

Basically, all of the Sapient races of FFXIV evolved from the Ancients? Honestly, that's pretty fascinating if you ask me.

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I mean, that's already mostly true; either they created them as concepts or they evolved into them afterwards. There's some rare exceptions where we have either an extraterrestrial origin point (dragons) or a post-Sundering society creating them (the Ixal, as well as whatever else the Allagans made), but in almost all cases, yeah, if we see a living thing an Ancient did that.

I was going to give voidsent and Sin Eaters as exceptions because they're more consequences of natural phenomena, but... no, Ancients were also responsible for those! Very specific Ancients, in fact!

I don't think the term 'Ancient' is necessarily a homogenous one. During our trip to Amaurot, you encounter a debate where the Amaurotians discuss another 'Ancient' civilization across the sea that was being affected by Final Days phenomena, and argue for and against getting involved. It's possible that the Meracydians and people of the New World were descended from other 'Ancient' races that had viewpoints, knowledge systems, and governance that were very distinct from the Amaurotians and their Convocation.

Without further clarification on what the term 'Ancient' actually means, it's a bit like stating that most/all the people currently alive on Earth are descended from people who were previously alive on Earth.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I don't think the term 'Ancient' is necessarily a homogenous one. During our trip to Amaurot, you encounter a debate where the Amaurotians discuss another 'Ancient' civilization across the sea that was being affected by Final Days phenomena, and argue for and against getting involved. It's possible that the Meracydians and people of the New World were descended from other 'Ancient' races that had viewpoints, knowledge systems, and governance that were very distinct from the Amaurotians and their Convocation.

Without further clarification on what the term 'Ancient' actually means, it's a bit like stating that most/all the people currently alive on Earth are descended from people who were previously alive on Earth.

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Wut? I mean, aren't we all descendants from our ancestors that existed before us?

I personally think the sundering killed most people and hydealyn repopulated sundered Etheirys by using pre-existing concepts and sticking the sundered souls into them. This would also explain why in the first Final Days warped the Ancients Creation magics and the second warped the people (beyond being more susceptible to dyamis) and hydealyn refers to the races as "my children"

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Originally Posted by Strongfat900

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Exactly. It's a tautology.

Point is, we're operating on a false equivalence that Amaurot was the only 'Ancient' civilization of its time, when there is already quest dialogue to suggest the contrary. It's possible that all of the native (i.e. excluding alien civilizations like the First Brood and Omicrons) sapient life forms arose from Amaurot, which would be pretty boring. But we don't know that for a fact, because the world's a big place and we haven't seen what's 'across the pond', as it were.

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sapient life forms arose from Amaurot, which would be pretty boring

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this is why im desperatly hoping for the 12 not to be connected to them.

Given that all of the races (Save for the Hyur) are believed to have a homeland that they've dwelled in since antiquity, perhaps they all originated from different Ancient civilizations and the people of Amaurot accounted for only one of them.

No one is drawing any conclusions between how atmospheric ether may have had an influence on what the sundered humanity eventually became? It seems very possible to me. We know Ether has alteration properties on individuals when an overwhelming amount suffuses into a being. These Lesser humans (the sundered humanity), don't have as much either as their original bodies and thus would likely be vulnerable to etheric alteration by their dense ether-infused environments. We don't know where each race originally lived and its ether levels but it very much may have altered their physiology over time. Sun Tribe Miq'ote for example likely came from a hot sunny place, hence their constricted pupils though since they have duller teeth than the Moon Tribe perhaps they didn't hunt with their natural weapons as often and ate mostly grown foods, whereas the Moon Tribe lived in darker, colder environments and thus kept or developed fangs and wider pupils for better hunting at night. We also know people from the past had the ability to transform, perhaps some bastardized version of this trait is what caused all post sundering people to mutate into their current racial equivalents?

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Originally Posted by Selvokaz

No one is drawing any conclusions between how atmospheric ether may have had an influence on what the sundered humanity eventually became? It seems very possible to me. We know Ether has alteration properties on individuals when an overwhelming amount suffuses into a being. These Lesser humans (the sundered humanity), don't have as much either as their original bodies and thus would likely be vulnerable to etheric alteration by their dense ether-infused environments. We don't know where each race originally lived and its ether levels but it very much may have altered their physiology over time. Sun Tribe Miq'ote for example likely came from a hot sunny place, hence their constricted pupils though since they have duller teeth than the Moon Tribe perhaps they didn't hunt with their natural weapons as often and ate mostly grown foods, whereas the Moon Tribe lived in darker, colder environments and thus kept or developed fangs and wider pupils for better hunting at night. We also know people from the past had the ability to transform, perhaps some bastardized version of this trait is what caused all post sundering people to mutate into their current racial equivalents?

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By "humanity" do you mean all of the Spoken including the "beastmen" tribes? Cuz even the Eorzea encyclopedia considers the "beastmen" as mere men or "humans" if you will(any race that is sapient really).
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...encyclopaedia/

I'd say that the best term for the most human looking races is demi-humans. Not to forget on the fact that these terms are never used in the First to begin with, and we do know for a fact that these terms were first used in Ul-daah for political reasons. Same for the Garleans who call anyone who isn't them as "savages" and "barbarians". I do agree that the aether did play a big role in shaping the sapient races of the world among other things though.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Exactly. It's a tautology.

Point is, we're operating on a false equivalence that Amaurot was the only 'Ancient' civilization of its time, when there is already quest dialogue to suggest the contrary. It's possible that all of the native (i.e. excluding alien civilizations like the First Brood and Omicrons) sapient life forms arose from Amaurot, which would be pretty boring. But we don't know that for a fact, because the world's a big place and we haven't seen what's 'across the pond', as it were.

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Well, yeah. It's likely that that ancients were pretty diverse too but were closely related nonetheless.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Well, remember that there aren't actual distinctions between the 'spoken' races and 'beast' races, it's 100% arbitrary and fueled by social desire to designate a 'lesser' class of people. In fact, remember that in the First the Amal'jaa equivalents were treated equally and it was the lalafel equivalents that were treated as 'the beast tribe'.

But I do think that it's entirely possible that there were people who, when trying to define this new form for themselves, landed on one that they had some memory of rather than completely out of whole cloth. I mean, if you decide you wanna be a wolfman, and you remember seeing a wolfman before, your resulting image is probably gonna resemble that wolfman you saw.

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Btw, could we say that the term, Humanity, can be used for any sapient races of FFXIV including the more beastly looking races like say the Amaljaah? I know that the term is very arbitrary and etc, but since a lot of people here still use the term so I'm wondering about that.

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Originally Posted by Strongfat900

Btw, could we say that the term, Humanity, can be used for any sapient races of FFXIV including the more beastly looking races like say the Amaljaah? I know that the term is very arbitrary and etc, but since a lot of people here still use the term so I'm wondering about that.

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Oh, absolutely, it applies to them as much as it applies to hyur or roegadyn in the greater sense of the definition. I personally avoid using the term because it's so easily misinterpreted as being more narrow, though.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Oh, absolutely, it applies to them as much as it applies to hyur or roegadyn in the greater sense of the definition. I personally avoid using the term because it's so easily misinterpreted as being more narrow, though.

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I think it's better to say that they're the Spoken(sapient) races instead. Using the human label here is pretty..well, yeah. I'd also like to think that the Hyur aren't "human" like us either despite their appearances sort of like the Xandarians from the Guardians of the Galaxy franchise. It's a trope called "Call a Smeerp a Rabbit", and as you expect, those names are very broad and loose including in FFXIV where the term, humanity, can mean any bipedal sentient creature and etc.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...ASmeerpARabbit

Do you know the manga, Biomega? People there call anything mountable as a "horse". Even the main protagonist calls his motorcycle as such as well.

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Originally Posted by Strongfat900

By "humanity" do you mean all of the Spoken including the "beastmen" tribes? Cuz even the Eorzea encyclopedia considers the "beastmen" as mere men or "humans" if you will(any race that is sapient really).
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...encyclopaedia/

I'd say that the best term for the most human looking races is demi-humans. Not to forget on the fact that these terms are never used in the First to begin with, and we do know for a fact that these terms were first used in Ul-daah for political reasons. Same for the Garleans who call anyone who isn't them as "savages" and "barbarians". I do agree that the aether did play a big role in shaping the sapient races of the world among other things though.

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Nah, im pretty much talking about anything that can reason higher than, eat, sleep, mate. XD

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Originally Posted by Selvokaz

Nah, im pretty much talking about anything that can reason higher than, eat, sleep, mate. XD

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And "beastmen" can't? rofl. The "beastmen" are as sapient as the "wandering races" of Eorzea, my dude. The term, humanity, in FFXIV is pretty loose of a term really which is why it's replaced by terms like the Spoken.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...ASmeerpARabbit

Eat, sleep and mate are things that all animals do, but there's a difference between Sapient and non-Sapient creatures including in RL like with humans and non-human animals. I remember Yoshi said something that he wanted to abandon these terms in the FFXIV from some live letter in the past, partly because he wanted to remove FFXIV from FFXI's shadow when he became director of the game.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

Yoshida has said in an interview or q&a that the speciation we’ve seen has evolved since the sundering. I assume Oda agrees? It makes little sense to me precisely bc the idea of humanity on each shard branching into the same subspecies due to random evolution beggars belief, but it seems to be the answer. At least for the moment. I mean it’s not actually specified in the game yet, so I think it’s up for changes till it is.

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I just wanted to point out that Yoshida's assumption here isn't at all far-fetched. The Sundering happened only twelve thousand years ago. Homo sapiens had appeared on earth as long ago as two hundred thousand years. So twelve thousand is barely any time at all in evolutionary terms. All the species and races most likely existed pretty much as they are now on Etheirys before the Sundering and would have evolved only slight differences since. Obviously cases like the Dragons and the Ixali are exceptions and won't appear on the other Shards

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Originally Posted by Elladie

I just wanted to point out that Yoshida's assumption here isn't at all far-fetched. The Sundering happened only twelve thousand years ago. Homo sapiens had appeared on earth as long ago as two hundred thousand years. So twelve thousand is barely any time at all in evolutionary terms. All the species and races most likely existed pretty much as they are now on Etheirys before the Sundering and would have evolved only slight differences since. Obviously cases like the Dragons and the Ixali are exceptions and won't appear on the other Shards

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It all depends on your personal headcannon really. And besides, the laws of magical evolution would obviously be different from actual real world evolution.