Hey guys,
I noticed that the 1-2-3 Combos are really simplified in content in which you control NPCs, which makes alot of sense since you always use them in their respective progression.
In the case of Samurai or DK in which you have more than 1 finisher, it could be possible to lay the 1-2-3 combo with their respective finisher on seperate keys.
I wonder what you guys think about it, but some people I know would really appreciate this simplification of combos.
Best wishes, Kev Ka
Simplify 1-2-3 combos and reduce button bloat
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05-08-2022, 04:45 AMKevkaSimplify 1-2-3 combos and reduce button bloat
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05-08-2022, 04:50 AMValfreyja
SAM players will scream at you that SAM isn't bloated. But it really is a chunky job for controller.
Reaper is just as bad.
We need some of these combo actions to automatically shift into their evolved version, the way PvP works, to kill out some of the bloat. The actions remain, with fewer buttons. I don't know anyone who could disagree with that.
It works in PvP, it should be 100% doable in the normal game stuff as well.
Samurai would benefit a lot from it.
Hakaze -> Jinpu(Gekko) / Shifu(Kasha) / Yukikazi
But any combo should be shifted to this. There is no longer a reason for it not to be. It's proven that it can work in PvP, after all. -
05-08-2022, 05:01 AMRayneBoemir
Alternative take some classes need more buttons to push particularly healers.
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05-08-2022, 11:50 AMRongwayBecause it's unreasonable to expect everyone who plays the game to understand the rotation of every job in the game just so you can complete story battles with borrowed characters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevka
But it's reasonable to expect you to know, at least for your main job, how not to press the wrong button in your combo even when the buttons are separate. You wouldn't or shouldn't use them out of order, but real people do. Some people are that bad at one or more jobs, and this is a player problem, not a 1-2-3 too many buttons problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevka
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05-08-2022, 11:54 AMVencio
I am with OP on this,
Only simplify abilities deemed necessary absolute without removing job’s identity,
What truly is the point in having over hoarded abilities that otherwise will clutter your screen?
I support this -
05-08-2022, 12:08 PMRansu
No, no, no, no and no. Stop asking for this trash. It literally wouldn't work for several jobs either like sam with meikyo would be completely borked.
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05-08-2022, 12:14 PMShurrikhanIt works fine on SAM. It's almost as if Meikyo's interactions with Gekko and Kasha were changed precisely to remove the one barrier this had.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ransu
There's only one job on which it doesn't, Monk... because Monk doesn't even have any literal combos, let alone a "1-2-3"; it is therefore clearly not the subject of this suggestion.
_________
On the larger topic: I'd be fine with it being added as an option, much like the plugins available to PC players already, so long as it'd truly remain just that option. That means not filling the saved space back up with new abilities (which, to be fair, would probably only be synergy-less, use-on-CD, or "can you count to 3 -- 3 enemies!" AoE/ST choices, or clunky situational crap, anyways, if making an educated guess from the last 3 years' developments). -
05-08-2022, 12:21 PMRansuIt would not work fine on sam or drg for that matter. Stop asking for this feature. It would be boring as fuck and would literally ruin pve. A lot of people would quit the game if they ever do something as trash as this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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05-08-2022, 12:48 PMShurrikhanIt very literally does. Already.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ransu
A consolidated SAM has a button each for Gekko, Kasha, Yukikaze, Oka, and Mangetsu. Popping Meikyo simply pushes those consolidated keys to the last steps of their respective combo.
Because of the Endwalker change to Meikyo, there is no point --ever-- in which you'd use anything other than the combo finishers to consume those three stacks of Meikyo. You will never use it on Hakaze. You will never use it on Fuga/Fuko. You will never use it on Jinpu. You will never use it on Shifu.
On Dragoon, one has a key for True - Vorpal - Full - Fang - Wheel and a key for True - Disembowel - Chaos - Wheel - Fang.
You therefore always have the ability to restart even your current ST combo. You lose absolutely no control compared to an unconsolidated system save the ability to hit a skill you hadn't comboed yet (which is literally never a worthwhile option). You save 5 buttons for no decrease in options.
I get it. You don't want this to be an official option for anyone. But perhaps stick to just that if you haven't a clue how consolidated combos actually work?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ransu
In no way have I promoted it being forced upon anyone and everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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05-08-2022, 01:41 PMRansu
It would be forced. They would not introduce such a feature and then make it optional.
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06-01-2022, 08:06 PMPetite_Blanche
I concur, the nature of FFXIV's "Proactive" combos means you know exactly what you'll be doing for the next 20 minutes in any fight. If you get rid of the main 1-2-3 you'll literally be playing an idle game in PvE, where fights are scripted and you know *exactly* what your opponent will do next.
PvP is a different beast, because you're not trying to beat yourself, you're trying to beat another person, so simplicity of toolkit is a boon. -
06-02-2022, 06:15 PMArohkIt works for the 3 button AOE combo, you can put the 3 AOE skills into one makro and and spam that, they will roate as you change stance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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06-02-2022, 06:16 PMArohkDoesn't change the fact we got a button bloat problem, there are a lot of skills that can be merged into one button, for example Black Mages Leylines.Quote:
Originally Posted by Petite_Blanche
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06-02-2022, 08:10 PMRaikai
They will have to, eventually to make room for new things. Some jobs are fine... others are coming near to a wall.
It's either that or submit the jobs to an ovehaul. I guess people don't realize that the kind of vertical progression that XIV has will cause action bloat eventually if things are just being added on top of other things.
Unless, of course, they would be content to just get new animations and/or minor QoL via trait upgrades. -
06-02-2022, 08:17 PMLustre
I can already play the game with one hand, I'd rather not be able to play with one finger.
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06-03-2022, 12:01 AMRansuWe have significantly less skills than during HW (seriously, just go look up 3.0 DRG and see how much has been removed/changed from them and that's ignoring all the class shared skills removed like goad for example). There is no action bloat problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raikai
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06-03-2022, 12:46 AMTlamila
Yes please, this game has been having a hge bloat for years and it only gets worse.
See Paladin, since the bar was already full, they added new actions to the very same button, instead of requiring new ones, and it works just fine.
Honestly, having to press 1-2-3 instead of 1-1-1 doens't make the game harder in any form or shape nor more engaging. It's just hoarder's clutter. -
06-03-2022, 05:41 AMRaikaiYou're right, there is no action bloat problem... today. But like I said (and maybe I didn't make it clear enough), there's gonna be bloat at some point. For some, earlier than others.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ransu
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06-03-2022, 11:46 AMRansuNo, but it makes it more boring. If you only want to press 2 buttons, but play new world or something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tlamila
Why do you think they keep doing the current upgrade path with talents changing old skills to new skills? Its not a problem with how they are doing it right now. Its not a problem now nor will it be in the future.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raikai
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06-03-2022, 09:15 PMArohkshow us how you manage 30 hotkeys and move around at the same time with one hand, i am curious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lustre
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06-03-2022, 10:34 PMTlamilaNot even in ARR we had only 2 keys. We already have 3 full hotbars or almost (depending on the job), you're sayng consolidating the 1-2-3 combo into 1 button means suddenly you don't use the other 20+ skills? Unless right now you only use the 1-2-3 combo, in which case I'd worry more about learning to play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ransu
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06-03-2022, 11:16 PMRansuhttps://cynwise.files.wordpress.com/...ga-oblique.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Arohk
Most of the oGCD skills are burned on your opener. You spend the large majority of every encounter doing your main combos pressing the occasional oGCD skill. Its not a matter of "complicated" or not. It simply comes down to I'd rather press "1,2,3" than 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tlamila
Also, we had more skills in ARR/HW than we do now. The removal/redesign of "shared" skills from classes among other things have significantly reduced how many skills we have. I used to have nearly 5 bars full of stuff in HW. Now I'm down to two and half and its perfectly fine. -
06-03-2022, 11:21 PMDuskanehttps://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/ad5...2&odnBg=FFFFFFQuote:
Originally Posted by Ransu
now do it on this -
06-05-2022, 11:09 AMShurrikhanThis is blatant misinformation. HW had the same number of skills, typically, as now. ARR had fewer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ransu
Here's the ARR WHM kit, for instance:- Stone (unused outside of T5)
- Stone II
- Aero
- Aero II
- Holy
- Regen
- Cure
- Cure II
- Cure III
- Medica
- Medica II
- Benediction
- Raise
- Shroud of Saints
- Divine Seal
- Presence of Mind
- Protect (literal bloat)
- Cleric Stance
- Stoneskin
- Repose
- Swiftcast
- Virus (and it granted a 70s immunity debuff after usage back then)
- Eye for an Eye
- Blizzard II (useful only in Garuda Ex, though that was usually covered instead by Shadowbind, and in certain weird T4 prog strats)
- Surecast (which then lasted only 3s and was cancelled by completing any cast and didn't yet grant KB immunity)
25 abilities. We currently have... 30 abilities (24 native, not counting any upgrades, plus 6 Role Actions).
Heavensward added Assize, Asylum, Tetra, and Aero III (Stone III just replaced Stone II) for 29.
You could only take 5 of them. Only casters have so few Role Actions.Quote:
The removal/redesign of "shared" skills from classes among other things have significantly reduced how many skills we have.
The only way for you to have "5 bars full of stuff in HW" was for you to have crammed it up chalk full of macros, likely for job/gear swapping. Even AST, with Sprint, potion, and a macro each for Undraw and Royal Road cancel, fit on 3 bars (<36 skills) at that time.Quote:
I used to have nearly 5 bars full of stuff in HW.
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06-05-2022, 03:08 PMRansuPlayers clear savage and ultimate tier content all the time on controller. Seems like a you problem to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duskane
You have 8 pages for 128 total skills with multiple different shortcut methods to quickly use the other pages. I personally prefer m/kb, but a controller is hardly a handicap.
I don't really care about WHM because they have always been in a weird state and healers in general have always had smaller kits, but good job cherry picking I guess? The majority of the DPS and Tanks had more fleshed out kits back then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
My old main DRG for example lost the following after HW;
Heavy Thrust
Phlebotmozie
Impulse Drive
Ring of Thorns
Blood for Blood
Invigorate (TP restore so I'm whatever about this one)
Keen Flurry
Power Surge (merged into dissembowel as a generic 10% buff instead of its own skill that buffed jump damage)
Goad (TP restore for teammates)
Internal release (cross class skill)
Foresight (cross class)
Mercy Stroke (cross class)
Mantra (before it was mnk only)
Featherfoot and haymaker (not really worth taking, but nice to have when solo)
Blood of the dragon is now a talent and mirage dive is now merged into high jump....so outside of the new aoe combo, drg hasn't really gained anything and has lost a ton. -
06-05-2022, 03:27 PMDuskaneQuote:
Originally Posted by Ransu
nah i play on controller too i just wanted to see if you could do it with one hand -
06-05-2022, 03:40 PMShurrikhanQuote:
Originally Posted by Ransu
- You could only take 5 Additional Skills ("Cross-class actions", though the prior was their in-game name). DRG generally took Bloodbath, Second Wind, and Featherfoot, Mercy Stroke, and Internal Release (+10% Crit). Goad (worth only ~1.5 GCDs and only usable on others despite DRG having the highest relative TP costs), Foresight (3% mitigation) and Mantra (5% bonus healing from spells only) were not worth taking [and if you somehow wanted Goad for PvP to allow for an extra Sprint for a finish, you'd go Lancer and Raging Strikes... or, more often, just Wolf's Den as Marauder].
Of those, only Mercy Stroke, Featherfoot, and Internal Release have been lost, with Feint, Arm's Length, and True North taking their place. We now have 6 Role Actions, up from 5 Cross-class skills. That's not a net positive for HW DRG there.
- You didn't lose Blood for Blood; it was just renamed to Lance Charge after people realized the name was a poor fit given that it no longer increased your damage taken.
- Invigorate you've already acknowledged was pointless bloat. So that's another out.
- Blood of the Dragon hasn't had any attached gameplay since HW outside of rare moments following forced, lengthy downtime; you basically could not lose it as long as you didn't have over 15s of downtime. By Shadowbringers, its CD was shorter than its entry duration by Shadowbringers. It was bloat.
- Consolidating Mirage Dive as a follow-up to a skill that it can only be used after did not cost you anything. This would be like yelling to the moon over Shadowbringers Assassination not taking an extra button to be used after Dream Within a Dream... when it could only ever be used after DWaD anyways.
- Ring of Thorns was a dps loss relative to Doom Spike. Its sole use case was if Heavy Thrust procced it for an incredibly minor TP efficiency bonus. About the only people who'd use it are the kind who'd refuse the extra range (and, yes, square meters area of effect) of old Overpower just to no longer have to target anything. Unless you'd otherwise TP-starve in the middle of a dungeon AoE pull, it was a trap button.
- Impulse Drive was literally just True Thrust but with 30 more potency, to slightly bump up Chaos Thrust combos' otherwise notably inferior direct potency and to make gameplay slightly "staler" for about 12 levels to those who really like their buttons by making 333333 spam slightly superior, even, to 121212 spam, albeit at an extra 2.5 TP per GCD. No complexity was lost with its removal, and just adding back that potency to Disembowel and Chaos Thrust themselves kept its removal from having any rotational implications.
- Power Surge was a skill you used before every other Jump and only Jump for 50% more damage. It was effectively Life Surge, but without any actual complexity, alignment, or compromise to manage.
Meanwhile, DRG gained:- Nostrand
- Stardiver
- Mirage Dive (yes, it's still a separate action)
- Sonic Thrust
- Coerthan Tempest
- Dragon Sight
- Wyrmwind Thrust
Lost: 4 bloat/trap skills.
Gained: 6 skills as real as any others.
Meanwhile, you literally can't remember how cross-classing worked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ransu
- You could only take 5 Additional Skills ("Cross-class actions", though the prior was their in-game name). DRG generally took Bloodbath, Second Wind, and Featherfoot, Mercy Stroke, and Internal Release (+10% Crit). Goad (worth only ~1.5 GCDs and only usable on others despite DRG having the highest relative TP costs), Foresight (3% mitigation) and Mantra (5% bonus healing from spells only) were not worth taking [and if you somehow wanted Goad for PvP to allow for an extra Sprint for a finish, you'd go Lancer and Raging Strikes... or, more often, just Wolf's Den as Marauder].
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06-05-2022, 03:47 PMRansu
Amazing how much you can type and still be incorrect lol.
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06-05-2022, 06:25 PMMilkieTea
Rather than consolidate the 1-2-3 (which is there to allow for player mistakes), can we focus on consolidating redundant buttons? Leylines/Between-the-leylines, as an example. You can *never* use Between the Leylines unless you've set your leylines down and have the buff active, and you cannot use Leylines again until the CD for it is over.
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06-05-2022, 06:31 PMLustre"Misinformation" is such a loaded term to use in regards to discussion of amount of buttons in an MMO it actually made me cringe irlQuote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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06-05-2022, 06:39 PMShurrikhanWhen someone says A was more than B, despite it having been literally less, in a roundabout attempt to shut down a thread's discussion through errant nostalgic drivel, the term seems apt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lustre
It uses errors the poster could have easily checked in order in an attempt to prop up an argument, relying on others' ignorance to try to sell it. That is, yeah, misinformation.