In this thread I want to compile my thoughts and impressions on 6.1 samurai adjustments after having experience with them doing end-game and more casual content for over 3 weeks.
Let's first go over the introduced changes as well as examine existing problems that those changes are trying to address. Overall we can group them up into 4 different categories:Evidently, the two major points those adjustments are trying to address are the dps fluctuation and action bloat. While I can agree that those indeed are valid concerns it's hard for me to say that I feel content with the way they were addressed. So let's discuss these problems more thoroughly.
- Changes addressing crit variance
- Changes addressing action bloat and job busyness
- Potencies adjustments to account for aforementioned changes
- Quality of Life changes
DPS fluctuation
Samurai design revolves around working towards heavy hitting high potency skills, building up resources such as sen points, combo buffs, kenki generation and so on to then execute powerful Iaijutsu, rewarding your previous efforts. With that in mind we naturally end up in the situation where the major bulk of job's damage is aggregated around a handful of skills, which wouldn't be the problem in itself had we not introduce the concept of random critical hits, increasing the damage of those abilities by a portion of already large potency. Because of that samurai dps is a subject to rather noticeable random fluctuation without any regard for player's agency and performance. Which even contrasts with jobs that rely on random procs since a player still have to capitalise on them and utilise at a proper time.
From how I look at it, this problem can be approached from 2 angles. First is redistributing potencies more equally across all abilities, sacrificing a portion of the job's core identity in the process. Second is excluding critical hits from the equation, or rather making them guaranteed (which in essence are one and the same). And with how it is presented I'm actually in favour of the second approach although with some additions. The third option would be to leave that idea entirely until more fortunate circumstances, which in light of what other options entail is a genuinely serious consideration.
An extensive feedback on 6.1 Samurai changes
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05-04-2022, 10:39 PMZeretusAn extensive feedback on 6.1 Samurai changes
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05-04-2022, 10:40 PMZeretus
So let's look at what was implemented in the patch 6.1 as a solution to that issue. Midare Setsugekka and Ogi Namikiri, as well as their Kaeshi counterparts, are now guaranteed to land a critical hit. Again, not a bad thing on its own and is rather close to my take on it as well, however the glaring problem now is that major samurai skills receive no benefit whatsoever from party buffs that increase critical hit chance of which there is a noticeable amount. The undermining of job synergy in my opinion is a far greater concern, one that in this case can be resolved by adjusting buffs to not only give crit chance but increase critical damage as well, which can be a big undertaking balance wise. So unless you are willing to commit to the idea of adjusting party buffs, I believe that the introduction of guaranteed crits and the concern over crit variance should wait.
Action bloat
Over the years Samurai has accumulated a vast amount of actions, on the release of the Endwalker sitting at 33 actively used buttons which really starts pushing the comfortable threshold if we consider future additions and development. I myself have encountered a number of players' concerns over this topic, so I'd say an attempt at tackling this issue is a welcome direction.
By now the community has come and provided many suggestions on how this problem may be resolved, so I decided to share my feedback on some of them:
The first one is combining into a single action Senei and Guren as well as Shoha and Shoha II with AoE damage drop-off. Now I can see the possible reluctance of the developers to not remove some part of decision making of choosing an optimal version for a specific encounter. That being said, in high-end content we are rarely presented with situations where this choice can be made and in casual content this choice rarely matters to begin with, so I'd say this adjustment is a worthwhile consideration.
Second one is combining Ikishoten and Ogi Namikiri since one cannot be executed without the other. On top of that this plays nicely into the fantasy of Ikishoten being the empowering move before unleashing Ogi instead of a boring 50 resource generation button. However there might be an issue of Ikishoten being an ability and Ogi Namikiri being a weaponskill. Another concern might be the unintentional queueing of used actions due to button spamming causing players to be specifically careful about using it which creates unnecessary friction. So I guess it's up to devs to decide what is more prevalent.
Same concerns go for combining Iaijutsu and Tsubame Gaeshi. While generally you would always want to use Kaeshi Namikiri right after executing Ogi, that is not the case with Tsubame Gaeshi. Additional testing required to establish whether gcd time is enough to not create the problem of unintentional queueing. With that concern out of the way, this is a decent option to consider. -
05-04-2022, 10:40 PMZeretus
The last prominent suggestion I've noticed is combining all combos into separate buttons. I am strongly against this idea. The use of 3 melee combos is at the foundation of the job's identity, changing that will create a negative shock reaction to its feel. On top of that it removes the fundamental mechanic of a proper decision making happening on a button to button basis. That will cause Samurai to be much less engaging and less involved even though it is a simple mechanic to deal with at its core. This also should not be introduced as an option available that you can toggle on and off since it blatantly provides more efficiency and leaves no room for error.
With that out of the way let's move on to the actual adjustments of 6.1 that address this concern. I believe I should mention first the information I heard about these changes aimed not so much at the action bloat but at job's busyness during burst windows. And to be fair I completely fail to understand this reasoning if that is true. As things stood Samurai rarely had to double weave during bursts even at an optimal level of play or at least was much more lenient at that compared to some other jobs in the game. But even if that was the case the changes entirely fail to address this concern. So let's finally look at the elephant in the room, the removal of Hissatsu: Kaiten.
I tried to come up with some positives brought with this change but I really fail to see any. All it achieved in practice was replacing one ogcd button press with another, using Shinten now instead, while sacrificing a portion of decision making, resource management and job essence. The change feels especially painful now due to the fact how often you had to use it during the course of an encounter, but even in the long term there aren't any significant benefits that are worth this price. The mechanic should not be complicated or difficult for it to be meaningful. Yes, it was just an ability that you always had to press before using Iaijutsu. Yes, it was not complicated in its essence. But it wasn't redundant. It always kept your mind occupied ever so slightly, it created a room for error and satisfaction of mastery, it had a very pleasing aesthetic. So I'm strongly in favour of reverting this change and bringing Kaiten back into the game. -
05-04-2022, 10:41 PMZeretus
Potencies adjustments
After mechanical changes to the job the adjustment of abilities potencies are to be expected but this time I have a concern that these adjustments went overboard. I'd ask you to recall me theorising over possible solutions to dps fluctuation. Redistribution of potencies or guaranteed crits. Turns out the decision has been made, it seems, to incorporate both at the same time along with their respective problems. Not only is the redistribution of potencies away from your heavy hitting skills is harmful to the feel and identity of the job, it also makes those actions much less significant. Which is evident by the emergence of viable rotations that largely allow you to ignore those skills completely outside of burst windows. Which is a stange treatment of the skill that takes 8 gcds to build up towards.
https://youtu.be/tXDHt0ueL4E
Quality of Life changes
My impression is overall positive outside of a single concern.
The Third Eye extended duration is a welcome change, one that I'd argue addresses job's busyness during bursts better than any other. it felt especially justified with mechanics such as delayed raidwide damage of Elegeia Unforgotten in the latest new extreme trial.
Ranged weaponskills no longer consuming a charge of Meikyo Shisui is also a very positive change that allows you to keep attacking the target when a forced melee downtime happens inside a burst window. The one example off the top of my head would be a certain Pinax mechanic pattern in Asphodelos: The Fourth Circle Savage. -
05-04-2022, 10:42 PMZeretus
Tenka Goken AoE change is a tricky one for me. At the first glance the change seems overall positive, with now all 4 AoE weaponskills streamlined to function the same way. The addition in the Endwalker that transforms Fuga conal targeted AoE into Fuka radial one at lvl 86 was a great change in my impression after all. However this is one of the adjustments that after playing with it for 3 weeks I changed my impression on and here's why. Tenka Goken unlike every other AoE weaponskill has a casting time. Radial AoE requires you to stand in the middle of the enemy pack in order to hit every target. That puts you in an unsafe position considering casting time and enemies point blank attacks, causing you to either get hit or miss a number of targets. The first Endwalker iteration of samurai AoE felt very satisfying with them having to keep a dance in and out of the enemy group with instant and casted skills. It feels to me that the change was prompted by the original feedback on EW changes that was more theory based, because in discussions brought up people seemed to heavily underestimate the time you have to adjust position between radial and conal aoe.
As a joke I can also add the point about a funny absurdity of Gokken having now more than 5 blades:rolleyes:
This is a scope of 6.1 Samurai changes and that is my feedback after having some experience with it. We've yet to receive a post from the dev team about the 6.1 balance changes and reasonings behind them which I look forward to. But as a general impression I feel that the big part of those changes should be reevaluated and to some extent reverted back. In my opinion the Endwalker Samurai design initially started off very strong despite any early concerns so I have the trust the dev team will manage to deliver in the future. -
05-05-2022, 02:32 AMQuor
Very nice feedback OP. Since you're new to the forums let me explain a quirk; you can extend past the 3k character limit in a post by removing all the text past 3k, posting the thread or post, and then editing the removed text back in after the fact. Yes, it's weird. Forums have been like this since inception. But it lets you get around the 3k character limit with a simple cut-and-paste.
I haven't seen any honest assessment of SAM that ends up liking how it is in the current state. SE took a perfectly enjoyable job that functioned well and had high player satisfaction and destroyed it for reasons that were vague and constantly changing, not to mention easily solved via other means. -
05-06-2022, 12:00 AMZeretus
Appreciate the advice, will do that in the future.
Yeah, from my impression no samurai player benefits from those changes both casual or hardcore. It is definitely a step backwards overall in my opinion from the original state of the job at EW release. Like I mentioned before, it partially feels like a rushed reaction to the initial EW feedback in regards such as ability bloat (2 new actions introduced), dps fluctuation (Ogi escalating the situation), busyness (again, introducing Ogi as a big casted cd, 2 charges of Tsubame) and so on that was lacking the foundation of experience with the new state of the job. -
05-06-2022, 12:42 AMCelestiCerVery in-depth feedback. I agree with a lot of what you stated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeretus
Kaiten removal
Fixed " Nothing " and replaced with " Nothing ". Nothing positive to be found gameplay wise, we only were given potencies in return and lowering skill-ceiling/expression/floor.
The Button Bloat issue
I have difficulties even finding the Button Bloat issue? unless they need space for " something " of which that something only Square knows. But as many have stated different solutions, mine are:- Ikishoten turns into Ogi Namikiri
- Guren/Senei Attacks fused, 1st target struck with line AoE fall off damage
- Shoha/Shoha II fused into a Cone AoE, 1st target struck with fall off damage
The Action Bloat issue
I don't want to compromise losing Kaiten. Or anything... but, if they sourly need space? turning Kaiten into a Potency/Crit/Auto-Crit buff applying to all Iaijutsu casts and Ogi Namikiri for 30 seconds would do that. Making Shinten less spammable through costing more Kenki resource is another. BUT any of this should only be done, if they have a completed Samurai skill kit tested and ready to go. What they did in 6.1 is lazy.
Potency Adjustments
The fantasy of Samurai, prepping, and casting big hitting attacks. This job identity means a lot for many. Thus, I prefer diverting potencies away from Combo fillers and smaller (O)GCD's, and channel them to our say Combo Finishers and hard hitting attacks, not the other way around
Quality of Life changes
Yaten / Enhanced Enpi / Gyoten casting more fluently, rewarding players for the combo action though not so much regular Enpi. Third Eye was a good change, it definitely made it more friendly to use. And I agree ranged skills not consuming Meikyo charges was also really good.
Tenka Goken 6.1
I hate this change so much " I stopped doing dungeons ever since testing it once ". What was once a complex satisfying execution of darting in and out with thought out positioning for maximum damage, has now devolved into circular everything braindead with bonus minus IQ points with no Kaiten. Aesthetically making it look like I fart blades sideways and from my ass is another insult to how Lazy this was. And this is without complaining about it not Auto-Critting. This change is the Nr1 reason I stopped doing Dungeons.
Overall very good feedback, I gave it a Like. I will add it to the " Compiled SAM " feedback thread. tyvm for sharing. /easternbow -
05-06-2022, 01:52 AMZeretus
Thank you very much, appreciate the response a lot! :D
Personally, with how my keybinds are set up, 33 actions is a perfect number for me, no more, no less. However as far as I'm aware it's less comfortable to play on a gamepad due to the limited amount of possible keybinds, so I guess that might be the reason. And of course making space for future additions as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by CelestiCer
I actually enjoyed playing around with the idea of Kaiten giving autocrits, but like I said, unless they resolve the concern of crit buffs first, we end up sacrificing job synergy, which is especially painful with Samurai being a raw dps oriented job. (You can already encounter difficulties finding a group pushing high-end content as a samurai in the current iteration)Quote:
Originally Posted by CelestiCer
I'm a little bit on the fence when it comes to utility tools having the same potency per kenki as your main ogcd filler. While it does provide them some depth for optimisation purposes, incorporating them as a consistent part of your rotation doesn't really entice me a lot. Especially considering risks involved using them outside of intended scenarios. So I think that's something they should be mindful of moving forward.Quote:
Originally Posted by CelestiCer
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05-06-2022, 02:06 AMCelestiCerI can imagine gamepad issues, hence the proposals I made. But there are plenty and many others who suggested other types of solutions. I genuinely want Kaiten back... As for Auto-Crits, I am not a parser or a competitive raider to want optimized Comps? though I also notice it that Samurai's get puhsed out of groups and that isn't a good thing I agree with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeretus
As well with Gyoten weaving.. .such a big oversight on their end to have it's Kenki potency match Shinten. I'll take it? to somewhat fill the void of Kaiten removal? but the QoL of casting it back to back would feel really nice since there's a big pause for Enpi/Enhanced Enpi that I find a lack of reasoning to really use it or even existing out of being niche. I do want this to feel more fluidly flowing? but not that it overrules old Kaiten and Shinten cause it would be difficult to incorperate this into fights where we would require to back dash for optimized damage output yes. -
05-06-2022, 02:10 AMxAFROxHi, controller/console player here. Absolutely no problem with button space for me. The only one I find an issue was NIN and PLD, but that too had more to do with finding a place for everything where I would use it comfortably, rather than having access to it at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeretus
Button bloat for controllers on SAM is not the problem and I wish ppl would stop thinking we have it so rough. -
05-06-2022, 02:38 AMGruntler
Ultimately Kaiten had to go. It comes down to a simple principle of DPS design. Do not do in two ogcd presses what you could have done with one.
Kaiten was not a meaningful decision. You never made the decision not to Kaiten, unless you'd made a big mistake. Once you got your groove going, Kaiten was a sure thing, always, every time. What this meant was that Iaijutsu was always, every time, going to be Kaiten'd no matter what.
So, if Kaiten doesn't serve as a decision point, and your Iaijutsus are always, without exception, two button presses, why must it be two button presses? Is there a reason (other than preserving muscle memory, or you like the animation) to make it 2 button presses?
And the answer is, no. There really isn't.
So a question that also needs to be asked is why the devs never reacted to your attachment to Kaiten, and your clear love of the button?
The answer is: You never expressed any love for Kaiten. Never. When people talk about the high points of Samurai, they talked about Midare Setsugekka and they talked about Senei and they talked about Oni and they talked about Tsubame.
But they never talked about Kaiten, except 'You hit this button every time you do Iaijutsu.' Ya'll just talked about it like it was--it was just a button you hit because you had to.
So they treated it like you talked about it--like a button you just had to press.
Then, when they announced Samurai burst was being redistributed (which is part of the reason behind the change, as a nerf to Dancer and Bard and other raid-wide burst windows), you reacted with some strange cultish emotional attachment to Kaiten that frankly is out of nowhere.
So... forgive me if I don't exactly believe ya'll when you say Kaiten is THAT important and THAT beloved. I think there's a different reason, and that the Kaiten-Bargaining is just an emotional response to something deeper.
I think ya'll are seeing Samurai is not leading the DPS charts, and you're afraid that nerfs to synergy will keep it there and you're afraid that the devs don't want Sam to be good.
And this is a reasonable fear.
But here's the problem. If they bring back Kaiten, they're going to gut the potencies of Iaijutsu and Tsubame to compensate, or they're going to make Kaiten enable the auto-crit, but what they're not going to do is revert the old potencies and put the power back in Samurai burst. They've said that reducing that burst and putting that power elsewhere is their intention, so Kaiten coming back won't get you your big dick MSG crits back. So when you ask for Kaiten back, ask yourself--if they're going to keep Samurai burst low anyways, is this actually what you want? Or, is what you want actually the samurai burst back?
And unfortunately, because Samurai is making Dancer and Bard degenerate compared to Machinist (making the ranged role exceedingly difficult to buff) they can't exactly revert the old Samurai power distribution, can they? -
05-06-2022, 03:41 AMcjbeaglea) No, it didn't. b) Kaiten doesn't entail an additional OGCD compared to Shinten spam - what are you talking about? c) even if it did, that isn't a principle of DPS design - what are you talking about? Ever played dancer?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gruntler
There are endless examples of this in the game that aren't questioned whatsoever. Do you not Scorch following every Verflare or Verholy? Is Reassemble a meaningful choice? How about combo chains? Kaiten was effectively a combo prerequisite for Iaijutsu - that isn't inherently bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gruntler
There's plenty of posts talking about Kaiten and why it was important - hopefully the devs read more carefully than you do if they read any of it at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gruntler
You think wrong. We want our job to be fun again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gruntler
What we want is 6.08 samurai back - we want Kaiten AND the burst, but speaking for myself, if I could only have one, I'd take Kaiten without a second thought. The job is completely braindead without Kaiten.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gruntler
BUT...we want both, and there's no good reason to not have both. Their insistence on flattening out dps to tone down burst while simultaneously reworking every raid buff to align, which increases the focus on burst, is contradictory at best if not completely misguided.
That said, if they do insist on flattening out dps, they have a lot more work to do. My dancer has much worse gear than my samurai, yet tech step crits for more than 3x Midares combined and Starfall is worth about 1.5x Midares. If samurai's burst was a problem, pretty much every other jobs' burst is as well. -
05-06-2022, 03:45 AMFrogBiscuitI respect your perspective, but fully disagree and believe you are making the situation far more simplistic then it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gruntler
And also don't believe you have a place to assert what other players are actually feeling regarding the change.
On the core issue (at least as specified by you. SE has been all over the map on their excuses) regarding the removal of spikes in damage through MSG crits... I personally believe you are speaking with far to much authority on this specific point.
Why do you insist that Iaijutsu burst are not coming back no matter what? I understand SE has expressed that they simply don't want to deal with the complications of dealing around classes that have spiking damage... but its not like it would be impossible to do. And its not just the fact that SE can revert their design direction if they have a a reason to do so, but also the fact that the SAM change was 100 to 0 in one go. Our finishers hit practically for what our build up does... They could have certainly redistributed numbers without such a heavy hand and our Iaijutsus could have still hit like finishers without being completely evened out across our kit.
This also doesn't account for the fact that SE specifically designed the class this way. It was the SAM identity. Even more glaring is the fact that SE doubled down on this specific identity for SAM in EW by introducing Tsubame-gaeshi. They could have not provided Tsubame-gaeshi and rather had distributed that damage out throughout our rotation and it would have also effectively flattend that peak damage spike, while not robbing the SAM of its' identity and big crits. We just wouldn't double the crits back to back (and IMO is far less of a hit to the class identity of removing kaiten and finisher crits.
All in all, I personally believe it to be a bad idea to homogenize damage into a boring, mindless stream (but do understand there are complexities in design that may force that need). However, even if needed, I believe it could have been done in a way that wasn't such a night and day rework of the class. I also believe that making this change at the entire detriment to the very theme that derived enjoyment in the class is short sighted as well and differing approaches could have been made to achieve similar results, but without effectively rewriting a player's invested game experience. (There have been countless suggestions across the forums to that very effect).
When it comes to kaiten, I agree that it is heavily tied to the identity of SAM burst, but I believe it disingenuous to focus only on the loss of SAM's high crits and not also recognize that kaiten was part of the equation.
1. Yes, the numbers at the end were the payout, no argument there.
2. But Kaiten provided control over your burst. (Yes, there is a optimized rotation, but not everyone was proficient at it and that was the entire point. Kaiten gave control over how well you played in a couple of aspects. It wasn't an automatic button.... which leads to:
3. You had to pay attention to Kenki (now there is no reason to).
4. There is a specific enjoyment factor of powering up a move (weather you don't experience that same concept or not is fine, but please understand others have and do enjoy it).
5. Not just with the concept of powering up your next move, is the graphical aspect which many have expressed they enjoyed seeing.
In all, the big crits were the reward and certainly a big part of SAM identity without question, while Kaiten was a integral part of building up to that reward. The problem is certainly two fold, it is the loss of kaiten AND satisfying finishers which was the hallmark of SAM.
I do understand if you only care about the numbers that show on a chart, and keeping up with other dps classes, I don't question why the above factors arn't a part of your perspective... But many many players (expressed by the many threads across all server groups) are heavily effected by what is discussed above. Staying in the general ball park of damage, but playing a game that is fun to play is far more important to players like me then making sure I am the perfect player and am constantly outputting optimized damage.
Sure, the big crits were part of the fun (and I certainly am advocating for that to be returned, or at least adjusted back to actually make SAM a relevant class again. If you are dead set against this, or simply believe that SE is going to parade forward with this homogenization of damage across the game... We probably don't have a lot to discuss... I am simply holding out to hope this isn't the end destination and there isn't much use in listening to people simply tell me that 'what I enjoyed is never coming back and just to drop it'.) but Kaiten was also a huge part of the equation...
That one button effected multiple facets across how people enjoyed playing SAM. Simply dismissing this perspective with effectively 'do you really understand what you are complaining about', I believe isn't a considerate view of exactly what the removal of kaiten effected.
Just by combining it with the iaijutsus alone removes the idea of powering up a finisher from the game in its entirety in the first place (not even referencing the finisher numbers). It just becomes a single move without augmentation. I don't agree with the sentiment of "So, if Kaiten doesn't serve as a decision point, and your Iaijutsus are always, without exception, two button presses, why must it be two button presses? Is there a reason (other than preserving muscle memory, or you like the animation) to make it 2 button presses?" A. because I don't agree that it wasn't a decision point. It was always a point of possible failure, meaning it was a decision point, but also B. There was direct engaging feedback of pressing a power up button, and then hitting a enemy with a powered up move.
As a slight aside... I much rather SE combine follow up combo'd moves like Jinpu turns into Gekko, and Shifu turns into Kasha... Then simply combining a augment move with a finisher because there is no more augment in that scenario. (That said, I play on controller and before 6.1, never had an issue with button/action bloat and the removal of any buttons in general i think is unnecessary. But I am more then willing to bend and adjust to changes, if those changes were actually at least still made in the direction of the SAM class.
The reason these changes have been so outright rejected was the complete identity change from what players enjoyed...
Anyways, should wrap this up as I probably will start repeating myself on points if I keep rambling... But in my own opinion and conclusion:
1. I don't think kaiten had to go. There were ways to work around this. Hell, they could have just made the kaiten button provide the automatic crit Midare got, still done the same potency adjustments (and while still robbed of crits) would have been a better solution. We would have retained the feeling of augmenting our finishers, we would have retained the basic kenki management we had instead of completely lost any reason for kenki at all, and we would have retained our cool kaiten animation that was quite satisfying to watch lead into our Iaijutsu.
2. I believe SAM spike damage can be retained without entirely gutting the class of identity and feel. If it had to change, my first choice would be the rethinking of the pointless tsubame-gaeshi and adding that damage back to our rotation rather then flatten all finishers... Besides that the change didn't have to be so heavy handed... as well as plenty of other ideas that could alleviate this.
3. Dancer and Bard having issues should not be resolved by destroying the fun factor of another class.
TL/DR (sorry for the winded post):
I appreciate your candor in joining the SAM discussion. So often posters that don't agree simply do so by mindlessly talking down to others... But regardless, I don't not agree with your assessment that the homogenization of damage is a set in stone design path (I understand that it's effectively SE's stated goal, but many players are speaking out against this design direction) and I believe you are not giving appropriate credit to what Kaiten actually effected in game play and how it involved the player and just the basic feel/enjoyment of the concept behind the move (and in turn are not perceiving the actual weight many SAM players gave that button)
Quick edit: I was getting my moves mixed up and when they released... Tsubame-gaeshi was released in Shadowbringers and I was thinking of the Namikiri release. But all the same, this just further reinforces my point. SE has been doubling down Tsubame-gaeshi, and tripling down with Namikiri, on this very specific type of play style. SE made SAM in this theme, and reinforced it with every expansion.
I rather they back off on the Tsubame-gaeshi and Namikiri, leave Kaiten and Midare crits alone, and redistribute damage, rather then gut the class from the very theme they built it for and leave those lingering moves that created the problem in the first place as awkwardly disjointed with the awkwardly disjointed new direction they are taking the class. -
05-06-2022, 04:04 AMZeretus
The decision making part of Kaiten comes not from using the ability itself, but properly managing your kenki gauge in order to have enough of it available before the execution of Iaijutsu. Something that every samurai player who invested the time into the job had to learn and is familiar with both on a casual and optimal level of play. On a casual level it comes down to basic understanding of resource management. On optimal level it involved calculating the amount of kenki at your disposal moving into a burst that you could spend on optimal shinten uses inside a raid buffs window while also keeping enough of it for Kaiten, which is not always trivial, considering different kenki generation levels based on encounter (forced downtime, Third Eye uses).
On top of that, the idea of Kaiten was to highlight the following Iaijutsu, giving more impact to this weaponskill, something that, as you mentioned, is the high point of Samurai.
The ability should not be the frequent talking point for it to be impactful or crucial. Something that is clearly evident by the amount of feedback the community has given in response to this change.
I personally don't care how they decide to adjust Kaiten, as long as it preserves its original idea. That being the oGCD ability, that empowers following Iaijutsu in some way or another while consuming some amount of gauge resource.
My concerns over potencies redistribution have nothing to do with the overall job balance and everything to do with how it feels to play, and I stated as much. If the ability that takes 8 gcds or 2 minutes to build up towards is barely noticeably stronger than any other then what's the point to begin with? Balance numbers can always be adjusted to the desired level while keeping a meaningful and satisfying relation between potencies inside the job design itself.
While we are on the topic of job satisfaction and how things feel to play, allow me to address that concern more thoroughly. I often see people disregarding this point altogether in favour of balance or when they bring up this point they seem somewhat ashamed of it as though it's a silly consideration in comparison, which always seems funny to me. Let me put it this way: Nothing in job design is more important than how the job feels to play. It is its sole idea, the purpose and the point. Everything else is secondary to it. Even the balance concerns circle back to this goal. If you doubt me, ask yourself why do people even care about their job dealing high amounts of damage? It's because whenever they put the effort into playing it they want to feel rewarded for their work. And whenever that is not the case, it doesn't feel good.
That is all to say, the job balance concerns are out of the scope of my feedback. They all come down to some mathematical aggregation of potency values that the devs can tweak however they want in order to achieve the desirable picture across all jobs while simultaneously preserving the relations of abilities potencies inside every individual job and frankly speaking they usually do a pretty good job with it. -
05-06-2022, 05:54 PMKarious
Gonna have to disagree with Mr Gruntler. Kaiten was an integral part of our kit and it makes zero sense to have removed it. It was a conscious decision on if I felt like using the skill or not. I didn't even have to use it on only my iajutsu, occasionally I'd use it on other weaponskills if I had the kenki to spare. Now there's practically no point in having kenki since it literally just gives you four uses of Shinten as an oGCD and is completely pointless.
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05-06-2022, 07:17 PMZeretus
Although it was something you wouldn't want to use in any other scenario outside of buffing Iaijutsu (it always being less potency per kenki than Shinten otherwise) it still highlights the idea of Kaiten being a point of mastery and job knowledge, that you had to learn how to utilize properly which is now absent.
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05-06-2022, 07:31 PMdarkdylloni'll confirm that controllers have no issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by CelestiCer
you don't need all 33 abilities bound at all times.
some are super situational that you'll either never use or use only in dungeons (hence an 3rd hotbar for it, but only need it for when you do dungeons, talking about turning the sen symbols into Kenki)
yes, 2 hotbars are completely filled, but it doesn't feel bloated, it feels like i should learn to put it into muscle memory so it just snaps to those skills instead of actively thinking about it, which is fine and is good since that shows you need to learn your job.
it's not summoner where most of my hotbars are empty. -
05-06-2022, 07:53 PMdarkdyllonoh boy, you're opening an huge can of worms here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gruntler
alright let's do it.
so if Kaiten was a no brainer, something that was ALWAYS gonna get used inbetween an Iaitsu/ogi cast (which you are correct)
then why not remove the rest aswel from other jobs.
remove the dots from Bard, you'll always apply to them right? make them 1 button for both DoTs (or better yet, remove 1 of the 2 DoTs and add some potency to remaining DoT, i'm joking but your idea is basically an generalization)
you can go through every job and remove always used abilities left right and center, it doesn't adress the issue.
the issue is that this doesn't fix the overal issue, SAM has barely any synergy now because of always crit, which is the same issue that Warrior still has, but warriors can be forgiven since they're tanks.
there are plenty of ways to fix it, like with your logic, why not combine ikishoten and Ogi together since 1 does not go without the other, you'll always press Iki to get to Ogi.