Remove all Rewards from Losing in Frontlines

As it has been for a very long time, people do not que up for Frontlines for anything else than to get their daily and leave. You will only win if you have more players who are actually trying than the other teams. Since not only are you rewarded for failure, you are rewarded roughly the same amount as winning, nobody has any incentive to try.

The solution is to cut all rewards for losing a match. You NEED to win in order to get any exp, or marks, etc. You cannot complete your daily if you don't win. Extreme? Perhaps, but this would encourage everyone to play their best or else they will get absolute nothing.

Alternatively, remove it from the roulette so only people who actually are interested in the mode will que for it. If that kills the mode well maybe it's just a terrible mode and or the community is not interested in it. But the current state of Frontlines is absolutely intolerable so I'd rather it just die altogether than continue in this state if that's the only alternative.

This would completely kill the mode.

Nobody wants to spend time for potentially nothing in a mode they have very little influence in.

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Originally Posted by Sarevok_Thordin

This would completely kill the mode.

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Than did it truly deserve to live in the first place?

ppl would abandon as soon as they figure out theyre outmatched

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Originally Posted by Sarevok_Thordin

This would completely kill the mode.

Nobody wants to spend time for potentially nothing in a mode they have very little influence in.

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Yeah, this is basically true.

The higher the stakes, the less likely you are to win as a solo player playing honestly.

In the past, whenever the stakes were higher for a mode, like needing 100 wins to get a mount, enough people would do whatever they could to stack the deck that a solo player would end up way below 50-50 in a win or lose mode like rival wings or way below 33% wins in Frontline. Generally the better players on your server or data center would all just group together and shut everybody else down until they were done farming their wins. Now I guess people would cheat as there are strong cheats out there and SE doesn't seem to police them much.

Well originally it had no roulette or XP and ques still popped. With 8vs8vs8 you could also get matches at off times. With the changes freelance and random teams it would probably be more active then 2.0 PvP but not as active as after they added XP.



Yes there are losers that que for reward. Yes they make the game a little less enjoyable. They know SE does nothing and flaunt their behaviour. But just chalk it up as a bad match and move on. They are really sad people and should be pittied for such an existence. They might as well just bot fates.



Some people are just having bad games as well and I am not sure punishing them is as great as you think. I literally went from 12 kills 0 deaths to 0 kills 6 deaths. Everywhere I turned was getting CC or SMN were killing everything in sight. Mentioning SMN frontline isn't balanced or moderated well enough to punish anyone for losing.

Pretty sure most people do not want to be there. We just want the XP and brainless marks/tomes. If I could click a button and get those without playing it, I would.

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

Pretty sure most people do not want to be there. We just want the XP and brainless marks/tomes. If I could click a button and get those without playing it, I would.

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that sounds like a daily chore you would see in worse mmos, do we really want this sort of thing in a premium mmo like ffxiv?

I fully support this. Being on the team that just feeds another, while the 3rd just walks away with the win is absolute bollocks.

The XP reward just needs to go and that'll get rid of most of the dregs.
The tome rewards should even be adjusted for 1st through 3rd place, like they do for moogle events.

Eh, no, there should still be a tomestone/mark/exp reward. Lihtleita has the right of it, people would abandon a match en masse once they realize they have no chance... Hell, some would leave after the 1st wave of objectives resolved if they see that their team did poorly.

::looks at OP:: Oh wait, it's you... That explains everything.

I do think that the reward for being first place should dwarf being last place by a wide margin, with second place somewhere in-between. I still stand by the idea of them implementing a new token/currency that you only get from winning/getting second place to trade-in for new rewards. The new Trophy Crystals somewhat exemplify this- and I'd argue that they could let the winning team earn 100 Trophy Crystals per win as a second outlet to (slowly) accumulate them, since a lot of new things are locked behind a thousand or two Crystals...

I think removing the reward completely would dramatically cut Frontlines participation, and since you need 72 players to start a game, things could be very bad if the population takes even a modest hit. Even post-6.1, though, tons of players finish a full-length game with under 100k damage, which is trivial to achieve if you deliberately fight anyone ever. Rewards should feel attainable, but there needs to be more than just an attendance check.

I think Guild Wars 2 gets very close to balancing this correctly. You get 3 points for a loss and 10 points for a win, which feels like roughly the right ratio, but you get a bonus 2 points if the loss is super close, and a single bonus point if you're top of the scoreboard in any category. Has anyone else seen a working reward structure like this?

The structure of Frontlines doesn't lend itself well to such a mechanic, I don't think. Battle High is too strong of a deciding factor and the demerit on death means it's easy and common for a team to bleed a ton of points in the closing stages of a match. This, I think, is one of the other reasons that even a well-intentioned argument to remove rewards from losing is a non-starter - there are plenty of matches where finishing third place is the result of a coinflip determination from the #1 team going after free kills.

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Originally Posted by Sindele

The structure of Frontlines doesn't lend itself well to such a mechanic, I don't think. Battle High is too strong of a deciding factor and the demerit on death means it's easy and common for a team to bleed a ton of points in the closing stages of a match. This, I think, is one of the other reasons that even a well-intentioned argument to remove rewards from losing is a non-starter - there are plenty of matches where finishing third place is the result of a coinflip determination from the #1 team going after free kills.

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Maybe so. I don't think the system should ever differentiate between 2nd and 3rd place, though, except maybe in extreme cases; that's how you get 2nd and 3rd slapfighting each other forever, competing to be the less extreme loser, while 1st rolls in to clean up every fight with Battle High.

(Then again, this is already enough of a problem as it is...people just don't understand kill/death points and the value of Battle Highs for objective pushes. I think this entire thing could use a visibility pass.)

Removing, no
Bigger inceentive for winning? absolutely

It would be enough to just remove the EXP Bonus and keep the rest as is (instead, maybe there should be either more of that new Crystal currency and both current Allagan Stones rewarded).

PvP should exist for PvP's sake, not for PvE reasons.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

As it has been for a very long time, people do not que up for Frontlines for anything else than to get their daily and leave. You will only win if you have more players who are actually trying than the other teams. Since not only are you rewarded for failure, you are rewarded roughly the same amount as winning, nobody has any incentive to try.

The solution is to cut all rewards for losing a match. You NEED to win in order to get any exp, or marks, etc. You cannot complete your daily if you don't win. Extreme? Perhaps, but this would encourage everyone to play their best or else they will get absolute nothing.

Alternatively, remove it from the roulette so only people who actually are interested in the mode will que for it. If that kills the mode well maybe it's just a terrible mode and or the community is not interested in it. But the current state of Frontlines is absolutely intolerable so I'd rather it just die altogether than continue in this state if that's the only alternative.

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Rewards regardless of win or lose are what keep Frontline alive.

Being able to queue up on any class an change to your preferred class and still getting exp on the class you queued as is the only real draw of Frontlines.. ive gotten my Garo mount from it and will probably only touch it daily for Exp from the roulette. If they removed rewards from it Exp, tomes, or marks then I'd have no reason to even queue up for it. If they only removed it from the losing teams then I'd probably drop out from any match that was going bad for me, and let me say that I've had a TON of turn around matches while grinding for Garo. There's no reason for me to sit in a match that I know I'm going to lose and get nothing out of it.

The suggestion is like asking for a hidden parse in pve content where if you don't meet minimum damage or healing numbers you don't get any items or exp.. dose it sound nice.. sure.. but it would completely ruin the game and SE goal of making everything accessible for everyone..(even tho we all know they are going to far with that currently)

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Originally Posted by NightHour

Rewards regardless of win or lose are what keep Frontline alive.

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It helps keep it alive, but it also hurts the experience for those that actually want the achievements. I've had my struggles in PF, but what happens here is ridiculous. (99 -sometimes 50- clears and you're guaranteed a mount from an ex trial. 100 victories in any of these pvp modes? It's practially a lost cause.) There needs to be a place where people that actually enjoy these battles and care about winning can feel like they didn't just watch 20 other people piss away an opportunity. On my last frontline yesterday, I was getting battle high with some folks and I saw our score just staying low and people streaming down to the same spot to KO where there wasn't even a point to fight over.

I would rather wait 10 or 15 minutes to queue a decent battle than deal with this nonsense. I'm capped on everything and have little / no need for any of the tome rewards.

And when you get the reward you will stop playing FL, that's the reason why it's so hard to get.
I rather have this system then a system where I have to sit in que forever.
Just play casual once a day enjoy the run and have some fun when you are in it.
It's about enjoyment, not the achievement.

Frontlines is meant for casual non serious fun for 99% of the people that queue it. Keep all the rewards the same so people keep playing it! :p

Casual is all well and good. I'm not trying to go hardcore. I just want there to be people that at least give af in the slightest. If they even adjusted rewards to encourage actual participation, it would go a long way towards helping things. All of the rewards for coming in 3rd should be less than that of coming in 1st.

Currently, the biggest problem with FL is that they are unbalanced. Not in terms of job abilities but in reward points. There should be a bigger incentive to do objectives and fight for them and a lower reward for killing (losing points for dying should stay).
+ UI isn't clear enough for casual players to get a quick grasp of the situation. There need to be a similar UI element as in CC with will show score and nice transparent minimap + different pin system than <flaf> with we use currently

Not remove completely, but yes rewards need to be tied to personal and team performance.

First, to prune the leechers/griefers, players that can't reach some damage/heal/battle high threshold should get no reward. Excessive KO should be penalised.
(healing can easily be padded and doesn't mean the player actually participated, and since now everyone is a damage dealer, it could depend only on damage)

Also it doesn't have to be xp/tomestones. For example the winning team and/or players that reach BH5 could earn 1 "Second chance" in Wondrous Tails.

It's gotten a whole lot easier to kill people. Why would you want to add a penalty after reaching a certain number of deaths?

...So, you want everyone who do their dailies to lose xp to rng? You do realize most have limited time in their day? And that the fault is on Square for locking so much xp behind a game mode far from everybody are even interested in?
Do you like to have full teams and not having 2/3 quit as soon as one side is dominating? Then you like frontline! I for one would love if it got axed from roulettes and the reward from the rest upped instead, but then we might have underpopulated frontline...
but if that happens then maybe it isn't such a great mode?

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Originally Posted by Genz

Not remove completely, but yes rewards need to be tied to personal and team performance.

First, to prune the leechers/griefers, players that can't reach some damage/heal/battle high threshold should get no reward. Excessive KO should be penalised.
(healing can easily be padded and doesn't mean the player actually participated, and since now everyone is a damage dealer, it could depend only on damage)

Also it doesn't have to be xp/tomestones. For example the winning team and/or players that reach BH5 could earn 1 "Second chance" in Wondrous Tails.

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1- You prune leechers or griefers by either kicking them and/or reporting them- not by penalizing everyone else - and before you state that people can't be kicked from Frontline- I realize it isn't perfect , however it can be done.

2- How would you even define the limit for "excessive" KO? I think what you are trying to do is eliminate bots or people are just running into the enemy camp or otherwise kill trading - again- report them and move on. We likely need a better PVP report option.

3- I don't see a problem necessarily with XP and tomestones, it's more than the UI, in game map, and rewards for 1st, 2nd and 3rd might need some changes. I don't like the idea of substituting Wondrous Tails personally.

3-

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Originally Posted by Mistress_Irika

It's gotten a whole lot easier to kill people. Why would you want to add a penalty after reaching a certain number of deaths?

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Because people still run in and die just to make it end quicker. Plus, with the damage increase, people are still doing pre-6.1 damage. On BLM, pre-6.1, I was doing 250-300k damage. This to some people is still low, but I'm seeing people now do 100k routinely.

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Originally Posted by Droxybrobotnik

...So, you want everyone who do their dailies to lose xp to rng? You do realize most have limited time in their day? And that the fault is on Square for locking so much xp behind a game mode far from everybody are even interested in?
Do you like to have full teams and not having 2/3 quit as soon as one side is dominating? Then you like frontline! I for one would love if it got axed from roulettes and the reward from the rest upped instead, but then we might have underpopulated frontline...
but if that happens then maybe it isn't such a great mode?

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The biggest problem with this generation of gamers (or the public in general) is the blaming of someone else for doing something wrong or not having a moral conscious. SE made it easy to get rewards while I do nothing, so guess I'm jump on the blame train.

I think, at a basic level, while it won't solve the problem, some good marketing would help.

Currently, a lot of people actually don't even know you get twice the reward for a first place VS a third. A lot of the people are just there for their daily, a static amount before match rewards, which is true, but I think if they knew they could get way more, they would try.

I also think the achievements are bad psychology. Inherently, there is nothing wrong with the mounts that require 100 wins. You can crassly rationalize it as 300 matches. It's actually realistically less due to capability as a player increasing and thus match influence increasing VS newer players losing more often, but I disgress. On the other hand, if it was, say second places count, and first places count for 2 wins., but the goal post was 250 or whatever, ultimately people would feel better. Look at how we even word first place as a "win", but we count second places a "loss". Just celebrating second places more would help a lot.

Unfortunately, in a game like FFXIV where you usually always win in all other environments, PvP does a good job of reminding people that in life, there are a whole lot of losers, and that's reality. PvP especially highlights competition, and competition highlights the haves and have-nots. I think pity rewards in PvP overall lead to a healthier environment than the detriment of people abusing the system... That said some more moderation to punish this behaviour would be ideal.

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Originally Posted by AbysmalDuck

Because people still run in and die just to make it end quicker. Plus, with the damage increase, people are still doing pre-6.1 damage. On BLM, pre-6.1, I was doing 250-300k damage. This to some people is still low, but I'm seeing people now do 100k routinely.

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I'm pretty sure that you still have very few that afks in or near home base as well. It doesnt change the fact that it's gotten easier to kill. You're better off worrying about yourself and leading with the damage dealing if you're looking for wins. Worrying about how the other players does isn't going to change the amount of RNG that's currently there.

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Originally Posted by AbysmalDuck

The biggest problem with this generation of gamers (or the public in general) is the blaming of someone else for doing something wrong or not having a moral conscious. SE made it easy to get rewards while I do nothing, so guess I'm jump on the blame train.

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What? Dude - what are your even babbling about? Look, this is very simple - in order to get the most out of your daily roulette you must do frontline, which is pvp, a mode of play many are not interested in but do because they don't want to spend more time in roulettes than necessary, what with their usually limited time. As a result, pvp gets many who don't care to try their best, and this seems to annoy some of those who actually enjoys pvp. The choice to enforce pvp if you want full xp daily is a choice square made, and they are 100% to blame for any negative sides this has. Its not about generations, heck, I bet I'm older than you. This is very simple, you are not being woke, and there is zero need to derail this thread with societal talk. Go post on reddit.

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Originally Posted by Droxybrobotnik

What? Dude - what are your even babbling about? Look, this is very simple - in order to get the most out of your daily roulette you must do frontline, which is pvp, a mode of play many are not interested in but do because they don't want to spend more time in roulettes than necessary, what with their usually limited time. As a result, pvp gets many who don't care to try their best, and this seems to annoy some of those who actually enjoys pvp. The choice to enforce pvp if you want full xp daily is a choice square made, and they are 100% to blame for any negative sides this has. Its not about generations, heck, I bet I'm older than you. This is very simple, you are not being woke, and there is zero need to derail this thread with societal talk. Go post on reddit.

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This is such a weird take. People do all roulettes daily? You don't need that many poetics. Not saying you do this.



Why would as a "decent" human being que for something that you could get elsewhere and actively make the people around you miserable. I would never que for MSQ pre changes. It was horrible content. I can do hunts, fates, maps, other roulettes, speed run dungeons. XP is so easy to get if you "need" pvp to lvl pretty sad excuse for player. Just buy a bot or skip then. If you are there to work on random achievements you need wins anyway so you would be trying at least.

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Originally Posted by Moonlite

This is such a weird take. People do all roulettes daily? You don't need that many poetics. Not saying you do this.



Why would as a "decent" human being que for something that you could get elsewhere and actively make the people around you miserable. I would never que for MSQ pre changes. It was horrible content. I can do hunts, fates, maps, other roulettes, speed run dungeons. XP is so easy to get if you "need" pvp to lvl pretty sad excuse for player. Just buy a bot or skip then. If you are there to work on random achievements you need wins anyway so you would be trying at least.

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Because if you have limited time, which many do, you'd want to get as much progeess out of it as you can. Also your reply kinda looks ignorant, why would you run dungeons for the same xp as you get from frontline roulette when you can do the roulette in a much shorter time for the same xp? People have lives, and none of us get to judge how they spend the time they have to game. The fact that you can get so much xp from frontline roulette is why it always have people. And most want their xp so they can wrap up their dailies, and pulling that out from under them because they were not lucky enough to be on the winning team is something you'd have to be insane to support. If they axed frontline from roulette, then we'd see the population who does it severly diminished and square would be forced to either fix the shit in it or leave it dead. Most who play it don't give a shit about winning because Square made the horizontal objective about participating, you cannot reasonably blame the players for this, nor can you punish them over a loss they can't control.

Also, since I bet it needs clarifying, IF frontline got removed from roulettes the other roulettes would need a reward buff to compensate. The idea is NOT to punish people who don't take a niche gamemode that they are being pushed to do seriously.
The idea is to make it so that those who are just doing it for xp and those who play to win don't have to share space.

It is an excelent idea to remove it all, you got to put in efford and would attract people who want to pvp other than people who just want easy XP all the way to lvl90, without doing an effort.

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Originally Posted by Droxybrobotnik

Because if you have limited time, which many do, you'd want to get as much progeess out of it as you can. Also your reply kinda looks ignorant, why would you run dungeons for the same xp as you get from frontline roulette when you can do the roulette in a much shorter time for the same xp? People have lives, and none of us get to judge how they spend the time they have to game. The fact that you can get so much xp from frontline roulette is why it always have people. And most want their xp so they can wrap up their dailies, and pulling that out from under them because they were not lucky enough to be on the winning team is something you'd have to be insane to support. If they axed frontline from roulette, then we'd see the population who does it severly diminished and square would be forced to either fix the shit in it or leave it dead. Most who play it don't give a shit about winning because Square made the horizontal objective about participating, you cannot reasonably blame the players for this, nor can you punish them over a loss they can't control.

Also, since I bet it needs clarifying, IF frontline got removed from roulettes the other roulettes would need a reward buff to compensate. The idea is NOT to punish people who don't take a niche gamemode that they are being pushed to do seriously.
The idea is to make it so that those who are just doing it for xp and those who play to win don't have to share space.

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You and people like you don't get it. Frontlines was active pre xp. If xp was gone we would go back to pre 4.0 participation. That is why others are comfortable asking for the loser to get nothing. They remember what the mode was. Lot's of people actually remember HW's PvP fondly. With the few changes besides xp it wouldn't be the end of the world.



Limited time doesn't give you a pass for being bad/miserable at optional content and inflicting your "playstyle" on others. I stand by you are bad at the game if you are so desperate for XP you have to do stuff you don't enjoy and inflict your attitude on others. Pay for a skip and be done with it. Time is so precious you want to make others miserable? And a large portion of xp only people are so dumb. Be quiet and play the mode and leave. Don't whine for 10 mins, do nothing, and let me vote kick 2 mins before match is over.

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Originally Posted by Mistress_Irika

I'm pretty sure that you still have very few that afks in or near home base as well. It doesnt change the fact that it's gotten easier to kill. You're better off worrying about yourself and leading with the damage dealing if you're looking for wins. Worrying about how the other players does isn't going to change the amount of RNG that's currently there.

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I won't argue the amount of RNG. What I argue is the amount of people that join and don't "try" as they are just there for XP or an easy carry towards whatever goal they have in the mode.