The Twelve, The Calendar, and The Dusty Tomes (I'm Sorry.)

I'm reading those pesky Dusty Tomes again, and I think something has gone horribly, horribly wrong on the text organization end. Before I begin, I can see that it's all based on the elemental wheel - so let's dig that gem back out.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_7aOGPodCoBU/TI...ts%20order.jpg
NOSTALGIAAAAAA
Seen here, the elemental "wheel" rotates from ice (polar umbral) clockwise back unto itself.

Pretty much everything in the game is based on this down to crystal drops (6 shards of a defeated mob's main element and 3 from each that neighbors it on the wheel). Therefore, it's no shock that Eorzea's measurements of time would follow this as well.

But... somewhere along the line the whole thing just CRUMBLES as far as what the Dusty Tomes are trying to communicate to me.

Possible outcomes:

• I'll look foolish because I overlooked an obvious solution.
• There is a lot of editing in your future (I'm sorry.)
• This'll all get shipped off to the Dev Gods to sort out and they'll have to choose between hating me forever or realizing that future generations of Eorzeans will have time measurements that make sense and line up with the lore and be so happy that they build a statue of me somewhere (preferably in Limsa Lominsa).

BUT I DIGRESS.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dusty Tomes

Chapter 1 - The Suns
By the unit of a sole Sun we mean that period which lasts for the duration of four cycles of the six elemental hours - those of Ice, Water, Wind, Lightning, Fire, and Earth. And so is the sun twenty hours and four, and so shall it ever be.

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Got it: Hours come in blocks of six. 00:00 until 1:00 is Ice up until 05:00 to 6:00 is Earth, and then we repeat that four times to get a sun (a day).

(Question Block #1)
We see a lot of Astral/Umbral later on - so are two cycles astral and two umbral? Do they alternate? For that matter, do astral and umbral even exist as they once did? Banish used to be the three astral elements and scourge used to be the three umbrals but now they're all just "Neutral."

On top of this, the month progression and element tome seem to indicate that EVERY element has an astral and umbral side - is it 3 and 3, or everything was polarized in both ways all along? Both? @.@

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dusty Tomes

Chapter 2 - The Moons
The life of a single Moon spans four cycles of eight Suns, and is thus the sum of thirty and two. The eight deriveth from the elements six, Ice, Water, Wind, Lightning, Fire, and Earth, and the polarities two, Astral and Umbral.

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So, eight days a week, starting with Iceday on the 1st, 9th, 17th, and 25th and rotating clockwise through the other 7. Gotcha!

(Question Block #2)
I tend to notice things like busting a lot of lightning synths on earthsday and having way more of my spells resisted on Garuda on windsday. Is this what the book is trying to say or am I the victim of confirmation bias?

If there's something to his, back to the Astral Umbral thing - are Fire Lightning and Wind powered up on the 7th day but to a lesser degree than they would be on their respective days earlier in the week? Why would the tomes tell me what element is associated with every 2 minute 55 second period of a sun but leave out this nugget of relevance?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dusty Tomes

Chapter 3 - The Years
The Year is made when the Moon goeth round the two Astral and Umbral poles, fluctuating between the six elements, and that in turn. (????)

In this, the Year can be said to be the length of twelve Moons. The first and second Moons of the Year are the first astral and first Umbral, and together they share affinity with Ice. etc. et. etc.

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We've got the same elemental clockwise rotation from Ice, but now we get an astral and an umbral of each. If Astral is still associated with 3 and umbral still with 3, what's going on here? Consider that a secondary question, though, because here's where it all starts falling apart for me with a simple crack in the ice (pun intended): The character creation process associates The Twelve with these months, and we do start in with ice and go clockwise, and we do see the positive forces with astral and the negative with umbral... except for that first one. Why would the fury be astral and the lover umbral?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dusty Tomes

Chapter 4 - Of Man
The wisdom of the Twelve saw fit to grant man with the cycle of years, and in turn the reverence of man bound them to his gods - the Year of the Navigator, of the Wanderer, of the Builder, of the Destroyer, of the Warden, of the Traders, of the Matron, of the Keeper, of the Fury, of the Lover, of the Scholar, and of the Spinner. The turning of these Years twelve is a sacred thing, and together they comprise one epoch of man, by which the histories of his endeavor are measured.

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Why are the twelve listed in a totally different order than their months were? So far everything has gone in order, starting at polar ice and going clockwise. What's up? Was this just a translation thing - or do the years of an Epoch really stand upon 4 tiers of matching progressions and decide to totally ignore it?

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Originally Posted by Dusty Tomes

Chapter 5 - Of Gods
The constancy and eternity of time derive from the pulse and breath of the Twelve. And by their divine will the brilliance of the Astral Eras which see man flourish and prosper, and the shadows of the Umbral Eras which see man falter and doubt, are visited upon him in equal, and neither the greatest good nor the greatest evil may escape their purview. Since the peace among the Twelve was broken and life was created to wage their wars, six cycles of the Eras have come to pass in keeping with the elemental order. The Sixth Umbral Era belonged to the waters, as heavy rains fell and the seas rose high, submerging and cleansing all in a great deluge. With time the waters receded, ushering in the present Sixth Astral Era, during which man has again rebuilt his halls and tilled his lands. Naught save the ken of the Twelve themselves knoweth when the Seventh Umbral Era shall come and end our days. The sole certainty what resides within man is the selfsame as it has ever been - ours is the power to make of our Era what we might.

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And finally, in the last chapter, the Umbral eras now come before astrals? I'd hate to think that all long it was the FIFTH umbral era that ended, ushering in the SIXTH astral - because that would really throw a crimp in the Seventh Umbral Era storyline, wouldn't it?

Let's assume they really do go the opposite way after 5 tiers of the opposite. The lore says the Spoken started their existence in an umbral era? You'd think that would have prevented us from getting off the ground...

And even though we're "in keeping with elemental order" the sixth is water? This whole thing seems in shambles to me, at this point. Help me out!

If not for me, than for all the lore loving Eorzeans who will have consistent Dusty Tomes and time measurements to appreciate on the page I've already blown WAAAAY to much time on.

Are you leaving out more text in those tomes than what you've quoted? If so, feel free to ignore my questions to you.

Q1) I'm not sure where you're getting that anything is neutral now or that elements have both an Astral and Umbral side. Sometimes things are referred to both in single element terms and in Astral/Umbral terms at the same time, and thus, sometimes the elements' astral/umbral-ness don't line-up with the astral/umbral cycle being referred to, but I just see them as completely separate when referenced like that (such as in chapter 3).

Q2) Where are you getting 2 minutes and 55 seconds?

Ch5) The Umbral eras have always gone before the Astra eras. Are you getting caught up on the fact that both Astral and Umbral are always labeled with the same number? It goes U1, A1, U2, A2, etc. We're currently in the sixth Astral era. Prior to this was the sixth Umbral era, as indicated in the book. It makes sense that following U6 > A6 would come U7. I'm not aware of any cycle to reference that goes Astral Element, Umbral Element, Astral, etc. so there's no reason why the 6th Umbral can't be Water.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

We see a lot of Astral/Umbral later on - so are two cycles astral and two umbral? Do they alternate? For that matter, do astral and umbral even exist as they once did? Banish used to be the three astral elements and scourge used to be the three umbrals but now they're all just "Neutral."

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Well that's interesting. I could've sworn that Banish was listed as only 'Astral' and Scourge as 'Umbral'. Is this thing of each having three elements based on research/testing of some kind?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Why are the twelve listed in a totally different order than their months were? So far everything has gone in order, starting at polar ice and going clockwise. What's up? Was this just a translation thing - or do the years of an Epoch really stand upon 4 tiers of matching progressions and decide to totally ignore it?

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Look carefully at the list of the Twelve. They're paired off. ;) So I very much doubt any kind of translation error on this part. The Epoch also seems to be about the Twelve, not elements, so I'm kind of failing to see how the elemental list is relevant here. Each year of an Epoch is simply associated with a type of human behavior, from what I can see, which is very appropriate since it applies to humans instead of more abstract things.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

And finally, in the last chapter, the Umbral eras now come before astrals? I'd hate to think that all long it was the FIFTH umbral era that ended, ushering in the SIXTH astral - because that would really throw a crimp in the Seventh Umbral Era storyline, wouldn't it?

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I do believe this order was confirmed recently here at the loc forums. The Eras start with the Umbral Era of Wind, continue with the Astral Era of Wind, and then continue on from there in the familiar elemental order. Current Era being the Astral Era of Water, it's the last in the elemental progression when starting from Wind. The order could also have been figured out from various NPC scripts if you made a chart listing all known eras and their elements along with what's unknown.

Two thoughts:

1.
The only place the elemental order is really spelled out is in connection with the years, and the years do not include Umbral/Astral (not in the same way). So while I agree that we go Ice -> Water -> Wind -> Lightning -> Fire -> Earth, it is not clear that Umbral and Astral are tacked onto the end of each week.

So I think a week could go Umbral -> Ice -> Water -> Wind -> Astral -> Lightning -> Fire -> Earth.

2.
Based on assumption that we are heading into the Seventh Umbral Era and that we are in the Sixth Astral Era and that we seem to go U1/A1 -> U2/A2.... I am going to call the language "The first and second Moons of the Year are the first Astral and first Umbral" an error, and suggest that it be revised to say "The first and second Moons of the Year are the first Umbral and first Astral".

That said, I am with Anonymoose here overall. Something is seriously off when it comes to the language of the Eras/Epochs.

While this could all just be passed off as mistakes of Lewphon of Sharlayan, the author of The Five Ages - An Eorzean Chronology, I do hope that Fern and the rest of the LOC team take some time to dig into this and explain/fix it properly.

There's a bit of overlap in your questions so I'm going to answer them both at once.

Astral and Umbral
Yes, at one time, Banish and Scourge were 3 elements each; all Astral/Umbral inspired things were. It was tough to convince people of this without flat out showing them the datamines; but I promise you it's true. It's not a coincidence that the elements that represent "the astral heavens above" and the "umbral depths below" are the top three and bottom three elements on the wheel.

The confusion you speak of is exactly why I'm asking. Here's the old info for abilities, though, just in case you believe me mistaken. The 34% 33% 33% has been replaced by Neutral 100% in recent patches.

Banish
Action Cost: 3

Thaumaturgy Optimal Rank: 1
Requires: Disciplines of War or Magic
Cast Time: 2 sec.
Recast Time: 5 sec.
MP Cost: 11
Range: 12
Effect Range: 5
Fire: 34%
Wind: 33%
Lightning: 33%
Exorcise an enemy's evils with holy light, dealing astral damage and reducing the target's astral magic defense.

Scourge
Action Cost: 3

Thaumaturgy Optimal Rank: 1
Requires: Disciplines of War or Magic
Cast Time: 2 sec.
Recast Time: 5 sec.
MP Cost: 11
Range: 12
Effect Range: 5
Ice: 34%
Earth: 33%
Water: 33%
Curse an enemy with darkness and duress, dealing umbral damage and reducing the target's umbral magic defense.

Now, Chapter III states that "The six elements are manifest in all things great and small, and their polarity deriveth from the Astral heavens above and the Umbral depths below." This line is the source of SO MUCH confusion. I could be stating that ALL THINGS are made up of ALL ELEMENTS, which seems to be the first interpretation people jump to; but read it again.

It doesn't specifically say that all elements are in all things, but that all things are made up of these six elements. Real-world classical alchemy once believed that all things were made of up just four, and that they were BASED in one of those four (or a combination of them).

Look to the in-game world, specifically at fish, and you'll you will see that the six elements really are manifest in all things... it's just that wind manifests in crimson crayfish and lightning manifests in black sole... etc. etc. -- in mobs, earth manifests in moles, lightning in hounds.

More Digressing / Baseless Assumption that you can skip

Someone who wanted to argue my point might astutely point out that when mobs drop 6 of their base element, they drop 3 of its neighbors on the wheel. Perhaps there is elemental influence from all 6 elements, but their base is simply the strongest, and the others are too weak of an influence to even make it onto the drop list.

I'd argue that mobs, like fish, are based in one element, but when that aether escapes the dying mob and crystallizes, there's a natural flux that you don't see in fish because you're using the lightning crystal's plasma to convert it faster and more purely.

But that's just lore assumption and rambling and nothing to do with localization.

After that it's simply a matter of identifying the polarity of their given element, which again goes back to my question: Are we still playing by 34% 33% 33% rules?

2 Minutes 55 Seconds
The in-game clock moves one minute every 2.916 seconds, totaling 175 Earth seconds for every 1 Eorzea hour (2m 55s). The tome states that every hour is represented by an element; which means that the book is telling me what every 3 minute period in the game represents, but potentially leaves out critical information later in the hierarchy.

Umbral Eras First
As far as umbral eras before astral ones, I just thought it was strange. I don't have trouble believing that Umbral eras come first, but the tome mentions everything in the order they exist in; I don't think the ERAS came in the wrong order, I just think if the TOMES are listing everything in the proper order, and it listed Astral before Umbral previously, it should reverse the order it speaks of them in Chapter V.

EDIT: If wind was first, water was sixth, and then Raya-O-Senna says the fifth was ice... I guess we really are going clockwise afterall. We just need to swap the order in the book? OH GODS, and the deities listed in the book start with Wind as well - WHAT IS GOING ON HERE?

The Twelve being Paired Off Already
Yessir; they are. What I'm getting at is, again, that the Tomes have kept a pattern until now, and that pattern breaks at this point. The order always started with Umbral Prime (Ice) and rotated clockwise; then the first astral and first umbral moon are ice, and THOSE rotate clockwise as well. But then the gods are listed what, according to the montly elemental associations, is the wrong order. Check it out; I hope the fact that we're still rotating clockwise lends some ethos to my point:

The Tome's Order:
the Year of the Navigator, of the Wanderer,
of the Builder, of the Destroyer,
of the Warden, of the Traders,
of the Matron, of the Keeper,
of the Fury, of the Lover,
of the Scholar, and of the Spinner.

Wind Wind
Lightning Lightning
Fire Fire
Earth Earth
Ice Ice
Water Water

The same order we've always seen, but now Wind goes first? If you take the order that the book said the MONTHS went in, and then the character creation biographies of the twelve, you arrive at:

First moon - First Astral Moon - Halone, the fury
Second moon - First Umbral Moon - Menphina, the lover
Third moon - Second Astral Moon - Thaliak, the scholar
Fourth moon - Second Umbral Moon - Nymeia, the spinner
Fifth moon - Third Astral Moon - Llymlaen, the navigator
Sixth moon - Third Umbral Moon - Oschon, the wanderer
Seventh moon - Fourth Astral Moon - Byregot, the builder
Eighth moon - Fourth Umbral Moon - Rhalgr, the destroyer
Ninth moon - Fifth Astral Moon - Azeyma, the warden
Tenth moon - Fifth Umbral Moon - Nald'thal, the traders
Eleventh moon - Sixth Astral Moon - Nophica, the matron
Twelfth moon - Sixth Umbral Moon - Althyk, the keeper

Ice Ice Water Water Wind Wind Lightning Lightning Fire Fire Earth Earth; as would have been expected - also, I'd like to point out that all of the astral moons, with the exception of Ice, show the god representing a positive force and the astral moons the negative force; Byregot creates, Rhalgr destroys; Azeyma represents the sun and guardianship, Nald'thal the underworld and profit; Nophica is the giver of sustinence, Althyk is the keeper/taker of time. So (A) what's up with THE FURY being astral, and THE LOVER umbral?

And (B): Now, it might be that Chapter IV just lists the gods in the wrong order - that that chapter wasn't MEANT to be in order to follow the clear structure of the others - but I think it should be.

EDIT: It seems the gods here are listed in the same order as the Umbral and Astral ERAS but completely different than the Astral and Umbral MONTHS. Why does the hierarchy just turn itself over all of a sudden!? This is a catastrophe! lol

Weekday Order
Oh, man, Gahoo - I hope that's not true; I already made the calendars! LOL
If you kept the old-school 34% 33% 33%, it could go in even MORE orders to properly represent the polarities @.@

Possibility of Umbral Months before Astral Months
This is part of what confused me so much about the months and gods. At the moment, I'm still inclined to say Astrals go first since 5 of the 6 deity sets do go astral umbral, but they START with The Rage and then The Lover, which are the clearest and easiest to organize into Umbral and Astral. Maybe you're right and it just went horribly wrong after.

I have tried to come up with a rationalization for this, or even better, a simple fix. But I don't see it. I see 1 of 3 "solutions":

1. Take Ice as the starting point. This matches with Chapter 3 of The Five Ages - An Eorzean Chronology. It corresponds to the order of the months and days and hours as listed in that book. Plus it corresponds to the Diety associations.

But it does not tie into the era's. To change the lore associated with the era's would be difficult at best, as the Miqo'te came to Eorzea during the 5th Umbral Era (an Ice Age), and their lore cannot really be re-written to have them come to Eorzea during a 5th umbral era associated with fire.

Additional changes would need to be made to some quest lore (i.e. The Wheel of Disaster - but there are a dozen or so similar references) and some ordering in the Tome, but that seems doable compared to the above.

2. If we instead start with Wind, as the Era's do (see The Wheel of Disaster as example of this ordering), some of the ordering of the time lines up (dieties for example), but then nothing much else corresponds. Notably, the associations of each diety would need to change, along with the ordering of the days (or at least the text if in fact the text does not reflect the true order), and the ordering of the months (and associated lore about why they are in the order they are in). Not sure this is really realistic either.

3. That leaves option 3, leave it as is. Certainly seems like some cycles start with Wind and some with Ice. I think when we are talking about time and calendar's it is reasonable premise that there would be consistency and that the civilization would always start a cycle at the same place in the cycle. I guess maybe something can explain away the discrepancy, but it's odd to say the least.

***

I hope we are missing something here. No this is not the end of the world (no pun intended), but there is a deep lore here, and SE does such an incredible job at maintaining an accurate and believable story that it would be a shame if it got confused - especially when 2.0 might be the time to fix it. Looking forward to some clarity from the team - I can ask Yoshida about it at E3, but something tells me he won't be prepared for this type of question ;)

Wow, thanks for typing all that up, Gah; I was dreading going back and ninja-editing my post.

What Gahoo said, everyone. What Gahoo said.

It seems a lot of the confusion in this topic is over everything not matching up all nicely? I'm as OCD as the next guy, but what says the months and eras have to go in the same order? And as far as having an astral and umbral version of each element, the gods pretty much show that that is the case, I think that having 3 as astral and 3 as umbral is simply a gameplay mechanic, and not reflected in the lore. However... there's something odd here as well. You have the elemental wheel up top there, but it doesn't play a huge role in FFXIV. As far as elemental resistances go, there are two wheels, but they don't correspond to the aforementioned "astral and umbral" wheels. Rather, they are Wind > Fire > Ice, and Earth > Lightning > Water. So, we have the two wheels for elemental resistances, the old astral and umbral wheels that don't seem to affect anything anymore, and the big elemental wheel for crystal drops.

So, yeah. Things don't seem to line up in the game.

I'm going to answer these in a specific order, as the answers to them build the foundation of my case, here.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

I think that having 3 as astral and 3 as umbral is simply a gameplay mechanic, and not reflected in the lore ... You have the elemental wheel up top there, but it doesn't play a huge role in FFXIV ... there are two wheels, but they don't correspond to the aforementioned "astral and umbral" wheels ... the old astral and umbral wheels that don't seem to affect anything anymore, and the big elemental wheel for crystal drops.

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The main wheel is the basis for just about everything in-game, and the two smaller wheels you're talking about are a bi-product of it. It's all precise and still functional and the foundation of the lore, but to understand it requires a bit of working knowledge of both Chinese and Traditional (westernized Islamic) alchemy - which the XIV system is a combination of.

In Chinese alchemy, you have 5 elements that form a pentagram. The outer circle shows how each element creates the next clockwise (generation) and the shape of the star shows how they defeat eachother (control).

http://www.eso-garden.com/images/upl..._the_rat_2.jpg

In traditional alchemy, you have a six pointed star created by two overlapping triangles. These triangles are the symbols for fire and water, and the overlap creates the lines that change the symbols into earth and air; thus the triangle symbolizes all elements. The elements are divided into two categories based on temperature and mosture.

http://mbb.acclivius.com/sites/mbb.a...hemy-Chart.jpg
https://www.alphachisigma.org/view.image?Id=610

Combine these and you arrive at XIV's system. The main elemental wheel, the foundation of measurement standards and philosophy, is the outer circle, which represents how the elements create eachother.

Lightning starts fires,
Fires burn substance into ashen earth
Earth blocks sunlight and harbors cold, creating ice
Ice melts into water
Water evaporates into wind
Wind creates the pressure fronts that create clouds and thus bring lightning

Inside of this circle, you have the six pointed star, created by two overlapping triangles. However, though referencing traditional alchemy visually, functionally it's just like Chinese alchemy: It represents how the elements control eachother; one triangle symbolizes conquest, the other submission.

CONQUEST: Lightning boils water which erodes earth which grounds lightning which boils water...
SUBMISSION: Fire melts ice which obstructs wind which extinguishes fire which melts ice...

Now, instead of temperature and moisture affecting the qualities, we have astral and umbral - which, like in traditional alchemy, divide the elements. In abilities, these influences have been rendered Neutral, so I'm not sure what's up with it philosophically (hence my questions about it above.) Even though the elements are split 3 and 3, it seems that there's a bit of Chinese influence on the elements creating a Yin and Yang (light in darkness, darkness in light, all in all things).

So, it's not two "new" wheels and an adjusted "old' wheel; the same basic master wheel exists the same as always, and that master wheel creates the secondary cycles.

Check it out displayed in this manner and the influence of Classical/Chinese alchemy is very clear.

http://www.ffxivcore.com/index.php?a...attach_id=6731

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

What says the months and eras have to go in the same order?

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No one says they HAVE to, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say they should. What kind of society creates a system of measurement and then abandons it after a few tiers? Here, elemental alchemy seems to be used as a metaphor for the division and identification of time periods -- basically it replaces numbers.

So let's think in numbers instead of elements.

Hours go ----- 1 2 3 4 5 6
Days go ----- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Months go ----- [1 2] [3 4] [5 6] [7 8] [9 10] [11 12] w/ those blocks being 1 2 3 4 5 6
Years go ----- [5 6] [7 8] [9 10] [11 12] [1 2] [3 4]; thus 3 4 5 6 1 2 ??????????????
Eras go ----- [5 6] [7 8] [9 10] [11 12] [1 2] [3 4] (3 4 5 6 1 2) again ?????????????

It's like deciding that we're going to name our months after the colors of the rainbow and always start with red, and then do the same with years, but then get to decades and decide to just start with green. If you're going to make a system of measurement, it only makes sense to follow it.

Now, even if you accept this as is, it still contradicts itself between time periods, and the Astral Umbral rotation having Halone and Menphina backwards (when the other 5 sets match up light and dark) is strange, too.

Like Gahoo said, no matter how you try to organize it as-is, you end up with inconsistency.

Hell, are we even sure the 7th Umbral Era brings us back to wind? There's a meteor falling and the era was ushered in by insane amounts of rain. I'm not getting the wind feeling, here - though Garuda has been kicking my ass lately.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

So, yeah. Things don't seem to line up in the game.

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I agree; I just think that after so much meticulous research and masterful lore building, leaving it that way is sloppy.

These systems are the foundation of the game down to the fact that they're in our guilds explaining how the CLOCK WIDGET works; I'd like it to at least be the best it can be.

That dusty tome will get fixed sometime. When it do, we'll all thank Moose au Chocolat.

"When it do," lmao. Why, I oughta... [unrestrained laughter and fist shakes]

This was bugging me so much and I couldn't quite put my finger on how to articulate why! I have a feeling I could dig up historical precedent for cycles being weird, but- the amount of outside information you brought together (especially to explain the elemental wheels, which I spent a lot of time fiddling with and figuring out as soon as the lore was available, but never made the connections to classical and chinese alchemy!) and analysis you've done here is truly awesome. <3

I'm especially curious about the Twelve's relations to the elements and the astral/umbral cycle; it's awesome to have a background this detailed that we can argue about it and discuss fiddly things like this :D

This post is almost pure opinion and theory, feel free to ignore.

Thanks for the info on Scourge+Banish, I guess I never did go deep enough early on in the game. :D I'd be inclined to believe that the astral/umbral divide of 3+3 elements would be for spells (and possibly other related things) only - in a way, an earthly mage being able to only partially manifest the polarities of a single element, maybe. After all, there's no indication so far that the elements and polarities for gods/months/etc would be wrong, which means there has to be an explanation somewhere for it.

Also somehow neglected to match up elements of the Twelve against the epochs, a 'bit' of an oversight on my part. :X Seems to me there could be a cultural/historic reason between the epochs+eras having their own starting point and the rest having their own, even though it's not mentioned. It's not like RL is uniform either, and that's due to historic reasons as well (when not restricted by nature itself). You have to remember that while Eorzean culture seems rather unified in the present day, we have no idea when these classifications came to be and who (possibly which group of immigrants) came up with them.

On the matter of Fury(Astral) and Lover(Umbral), while at first glance it can seem backwards, there are other considerations weighing in on this matter I'd say. Halone being the guardian of Ishgard, for example, and everything holy seeming to be so important to them, waiting on judgment day and judging others to be unholy and all. Menphina then, associated with the Moon, makes sense being an Umbral polarity. Consider also the portrayal of Fury, bright rage, purifying rage even? Compared to cloying love and its depths of feeling, not always so very pure in origin and method. If you prefer to go there, there's also the Astral polarity elements (fire-wind-lightning) more easily associated with fury, Umbral polarity elements (ice-earth-water) more with love.

Now watch them decide there's a mistake there and all my carefully crafted reasons blown to naught. ;) But this stuff has been there since the beginning, I'm a bit disinclined to believe they would've made such a fundamental mistake in this particular thing. There has to be reasons for the deviations, even though not mentioned.

Also factual point, RE: 7th Umbral Era bringing us back to Wind. Consider the words of Urianger Augurelt in the 1.21 and forward event. This should ease your doubts about the next Era.

Quote:

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Each era is ruled by an element, and of these the realm hath borne witness to six.

Light and darkness yet remain, one of which the Divine Chronicles foretell shall next hold sway.

Ne’er till land consumes sun can sea bear moons,Heavens spew crimson flame, hells seep black dooms.

Will destruction rain down from the firmament? Or will it seep forth from the bowels of the nether?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by JGwinters

Also factual point, RE: 7th Umbral Era bringing us back to Wind. Consider the words of Urianger Augurelt in the 1.21 and forward event. This should ease your doubts about the next Era.

Quote:

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Each era is ruled by an element, and of these the realm hath borne witness to six.

Light and darkness yet remain, one of which the Divine Chronicles foretell shall next hold sway.

Ne’er till land consumes sun can sea bear moons,Heavens spew crimson flame, hells seep black dooms.

Will destruction rain down from the firmament? Or will it seep forth from the bowels of the nether?

---

---

Great find. So if that's the case we know the 1st era was wind and that we're looking at a 7th Umbral Era associated with, well, Umbral (followed by an 7th Astral Era associated with Umbral). Frankly this also seems a bit odd to me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JGwinters

Seems to me there could be a cultural/historic reason between the epochs+eras having their own starting point and the rest having their own, even though it's not mentioned. It's not like RL is uniform either, and that's due to historic reasons as well (when not restricted by nature itself).

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On one hand, you're absolutely right. Real-world calendars are a cluster%^# for exactly the same reason Eorzea's might be; disconnection and reintegration and primitive math. Hell, the real world calendar is known for adding a day here and there, randomly dropping 15 at a clip, etc.

I just... I dunno; I feel like to put all that work into engineering a fantasy calendar would lead to more consistency; especially when it's something you want your fanbase to follow and use.

I could understand it; but I wouldn't want to believe it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JGwinters

Now watch them decide there's a mistake there and all my carefully crafted reasons blown to naught. ;) But this stuff has been there since the beginning, I'm a bit disinclined to believe they would've made such a fundamental mistake in this particular thing.

---

Don't worry, I thought something similar; was joking with Gahoo yesterday that maybe Squenix was just being really deep that day and decided that rage is passion and passion leads to achievement, and that love or lackthereof is the root of all insecurity and insecurity is the root of all evil deeds. And then I stopped to smoke a little lalafell pipe and ponder.

Great catch with the Urianger text; I was shuffling through his stuff yesterday trying to find clues about wind. The one you found is very intriguing - as the Dusty Tomes say that there are six elements in rotation always; astral and umbral are just polarities that exert influence at some times when the math doesn't quite line up for six...

But here we see "the realm hath born witness to six [elements, and] light and darkness yet remain, one of which ... shall hold next sway". If the years and epochs belong to gods in sets of 12, why do eras come in sets of eight!? They already have an astral and umbral rotation!

Is Urianger saying we are in the Seventh Umbral Era of Umbral?

That would be absolutely bizarre, especially because the rotation of the element wheel always started with ice on the early levels -- if Astral and Umbral exist in the eras, then it completely contradicts the same series of 8 used for weeks; sure the elemental wheel of six can be rotated from any starting position to astral and umbral coming at the end of a week that starts with ice, and also at the end of a series of eras that started with wind? And going Astral Umbral on weeks and Umbral Astral on eras!?

Either the tomes are /completely/ out of order, or something's totally amiss, methinks.

Oh, man, JG... now I'm even more confused. Thanks for bringing all that to the table; I love a good debate/puzzle.

Still; I call shenanigans! Everyone grab a broom!

Hrm... This, actually, bring something interesting to mind.
It could be that, quite literally, the scheme of the eras is literally about to fall apart, because it doesn't seems like the calendar is all that new and the calendar itself sounds very prophetic in nature (what with each Umbral era starting with a cataclysm).

My first reflex was to mock earlier, but after thinking it over I think I can actually contribute, strictly from info from various posts in this thread. (not a great understanding of game lore)

It is interesting that the cycle becomes irregular when they begin talking about the years. It's cool that there are twelve gods and twelve years, as here in Asia so many calendars are setup with the twelve animal zodiac.

It gets more interesting when you notice that the order in which the gods are listed under the years of the epochs (seemingly out of order from the "ice-first" method) matches up with the order of the eras. 6th pair of gods being water and the 6th era being linked to water.

And now for the very interesting part~~

You would assume that each god holds more sway over their own era. But there are 7 pairs of eras and only 6 pairs of gods. Are the astral and umbral eras just times of lawlessness, where no god holds sway? Do half of the gods hold sway for each era? Are there two secret gods we don't know about?

Anyway, back to my suggestion. I believe we need to know more about the creation myth to make the final call on the orders being out of sync. Since the system breaks down when man enters the picture, it seems like maybe the first few systems are going off natural law and the later systems are anthrocentric. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the humans were created in the era of wind, and thus started their era-counting on wind.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Is Urianger saying we are in the Seventh Umbral Era of Umbral?

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Considering the main threat is Meteor (Coming from the heavens) and is being called down by an empire that believes it is cleansing evil, making the land pure, and doing what's right, I imagine we'll be entering the Seventh Umbral Era of Astral.

Also, in reference to a point upthread, I don't think there's an implication of Astral as good and Umbral as bad, or six of the Twelve having negative connotations and six having positive connotations; maybe this is the eternal Thaumaturge in me speaking, but Nald'thal in specific is a god of balance, of life and death, of commerce, but also travel to/from the Underworld, and both twin aspects are considered equally important... I think it's a bit of an overgeneralisation to say that Nald'thal has a negative aspect, because he's the god of filthy lucre. ;)

Or at least, I think you might have to start worrying about being dragged off by some scary Lalafell for reeducation next time you're in the wrong part of Ul'dah... o_o;;

(p.s. can has Lore forum? :D)

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

Considering the main threat is Meteor (Coming from the heavens) and is being called down by an empire that believes it is cleansing evil, making the land pure, and doing what's right, I imagine we'll be entering the Seventh Umbral Era of Astral.

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Really good point; though now we have Umbral eras coming before Astral eras and the astral umbral era coming before the umbral umbral era... when we already had astral and umbral before the... cycle start-- OH MYYYY.

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Originally Posted by Skies

It could be that, quite literally, the scheme of the eras is literally about to fall apart, because it doesn't seems like the calendar is all that new and the calendar itself sounds very prophetic in nature (what with each Umbral era starting with a cataclysm).

---

That would be pretty badass. The only thing stopping me from buying into that is the possibility that what Urianger said really does mean there will be an Astral Umbral Era and an Umbral Umbral Era. If we get this one, we'll have to have that era, then an the Seventh Astral Era before we get to the last one. Each era is like 1600 years give or take, so we'd have a bit of time! Maybe you're onto something, though. The fabric of a lot of things are unraveling.

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Originally Posted by Deltara

You would assume that each god holds more sway over their own era. But there are 7 pairs of eras and only 6 pairs of gods. Are the astral and umbral eras just times of lawlessness, where no god holds sway? Do half of the gods hold sway for each era? Are there two secret gods we don't know about?

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This goes back to Gahoo and I's confusion that there's suddenly the possibilty of the Seventh Umbral Era being an astral umbral era or umbral umbral era. Bizarre as that would be, there really would be no god for that - not unless the 3 on 3 rules still applied, in which case we'd get 6 of the 12! Sounds like the Greek wars in the realm of Gods, lol.

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Originally Posted by Deltara

I believe we need to know more about the creation myth to make the final call on the orders being out of sync. Since the system breaks down when man enters the picture, it seems like maybe the first few systems are going off natural law and the later systems are anthrocentric. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the humans were created in the era of wind, and thus started their era-counting on wind.

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Agreed; there might be something in the overall scheme that we're missing. If that were the case, I'd begrudgingly accept it. I still think a system engineered for a video game should be consistent, but there'd at least be a REASON for it being messed up.

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Originally Posted by Teakwood

Also, in reference to a point upthread, I don't think there's an implication of Astral as good and Umbral as bad

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Aye; light and dark don't always have to be good and evil. I mean, we do have the heavens and hells - but like you said about the THMs, it doesn't have to be good or evil. Sometimes it's just knowledge vs. faith; procreation vs. profit. Evil is just a point of view.

Just repeat to yourself "It's just a game"

Actually, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense that the eras do not fit in with the normal cycle, instead just having their own cycle of an elemental umbral era, followed by a corresponding astral era. The eras are named after a defining element during them, supposedly the core of the tragedy that brought the umbral era, as well as an influence in the astral era (as I understand it). It would be rather odd if the disasters all corresponded to the manmade calender. Rather, the disasters that usher in the coming umbral era are unknown to the citizens of Eorzea, and this makes them frightening. However, there's also hope in that the same element will usher in an astral era after. And just because disasters happen, followed by good times, does not mean that we need to have an era whose element is darkness before we have an era ruled by light.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

The eras are named after a defining element during them ... It would be rather odd if the disasters all corresponded to the manmade calender.

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That's a logical start, but we know the first was wind, the fifth was ice, the sixth was water, and I'm pretty sure the fourth being earth around the time Allagan was destroyed came up somewhere. That means we've still been going clockwise around the elemental wheel, and thus even if we break that first part of the pattern, it's still in conformity to the calendar; still the same type of odd, no?

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

It would be rather odd if the disasters all corresponded to the manmade calender.

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I think one premise that we need to accept (or at least accept the very real possibility of) is that the calendar/lore here is not "made-up". In other words, in RL, many (not taking sides here) will take the position that religion qua religion, is man-made. So any attempts to correlate religion and science will necessarily fail (or require some "creative" solutions like a "day" from Genesis being multiple millennium). In Eorzea, however, it seems we are led to believe that the religion/dieties are real and their control over Eorzea is real and persistent. So the calendar is not "man-made" in the normal sense. It is more akin to e=mc2. It is a scientific equation that derives directly from the way in which the dieties created/control Eorzea.

Man I love posts like these. Where did the last hour go?

Thumbs up to all who participated. Give us MOAR

Some of this is going from memory, so bear with me.

It is theology that governs history beyond human records and ability to measure it. As our ability to measure extends, this sway retracts, but never vanishes. Even now in our own world theology holds sway over the question "What was before the big bang?" Of course the problem with involving theologians in historic discussion is that they have this habit of objecting to any theory that does not sit with their doctrine, for how could such a thing exist? It can take quite a bit of pushing to make them budge. In our own world, such attitudes made it difficult to break concepts of the world being flat, at the centre of our solar system, made of only four elements and less than about 6000 years old. But we got there and our understanding of history widened. Now, back to Eorzea.

We know from various Newspaper articles that civilisation can only trace itself back so far. Research on the history of Eorzea's Astral and Umbral eras is conducted by both historians and theologians. There is almost no evidence of what existed prior to the Allagan Empire and what does exist is in the form of religious texts. It therefore falls to the theologians to offer meaning to existence by creating whatever story they find most probable. Thus, we have:

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Chapter 5 - Of Gods
The constancy and eternity of time derive from the pulse and breath of the Twelve. And by their divine will the brilliance of the Astral Eras which see man flourish and prosper, and the shadows of the Umbral Eras which see man falter and doubt, are visited upon him in equal, and neither the greatest good nor the greatest evil may escape their purview. Since the peace among the Twelve was broken and life was created to wage their wars, six cycles of the Eras have come to pass in keeping with the elemental order. The Sixth Umbral Era belonged to the waters, as heavy rains fell and the seas rose high, submerging and cleansing all in a great deluge. With time the waters receded, ushering in the present Sixth Astral Era, during which man has again rebuilt his halls and tilled his lands. Naught save the ken of the Twelve themselves knoweth when the Seventh Umbral Era shall come and end our days. The sole certainty what resides within man is the selfsame as it has ever been - ours is the power to make of our Era what we might.

---

Note that most of the emphasis is on the 6th Astral and Umbral. This is what the historians have evidence on and is thus the part they are best positioned to flesh out with detail. Prior to that? Well we have information on the Allagan civilisation, lore that says the Mi'quote came during an ice age and the like, but things don't go much further back than that.

Oh hang on, did I just say our earliest historic records are ICE AGE?!?!? (I'll let you munch on that, Moose.)

Now what came before? Theologians start filling the gaps. We get into creation myths that simply give us the best story we can come with. They begin extrapolating what we currently have - a never-ending cycle of elements back to something they can define as a beginning. And whom of the twelve is associated with beginnings?

Llymlaen, the navigator. She directs where to go. She sets the course and begins journeys. "Since the peace among the Twelve was broken and life was created to wage their wars." By placing her first and having the known floods (water) sixth, theologians also end up with the magical number of six that revolves through their mythology, making it just feel right.

And then mythology starts to stick. In spite of expanded knowledge of the world, in spite of any real evidence that this Astral era is even water in the first place (why did the flood waters recede?) and not wind again (for only the umbral eras seem to display a strong affinity to any element of destruction). Disaster begins to strike and, in spite of all logic, people begin to only cling tighter to their mythology and its interpretation on the words of a seer. I propose looking at this text again.

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Each era is ruled by an element, and of these the realm hath borne witness to six.
Only six eras? I propose that this actually means six elements.

Light and darkness yet remain, one of which the Divine Chronicles foretell shall next hold sway.
I pose that this simply iterates the constant rotation between Astral and Umbral.

Ne’er till land consumes sun can sea bear moons,Heavens spew crimson flame, hells seep black dooms.
Again, time must continue. Things remain in motion and do not simply end. The astral must end before the umbral can begin. And if we are not careful, both can actually harm us, not just the umbral, for change in the climate brings change to our lifestyles (perhaps the umbral era of water was marked as a time of destruction simply because the Allagan Empire could not adapt to it? In a mass extinction event, it is always the specialised creatures that perish first).

Will destruction rain down from the firmament? Or will it seep forth from the bowels of the nether?
Which will we allow to harm us next?

---

I simply want to make the point that theology is causing a certain interpretation of these verses, which may not be quite correct, for we are limited in our true historic understanding.

And what came before the gods? What did they live through? Perhaps Llymlaen did direct the start of our dance, but that was not the beginning of time. Perhaps things did indeed begin with ice.

I'd like to get back into this wheel. It is, exactly that, a wheel, a circle, a cycle. As with the hours, the weeks and the years, it does not end and continues to turn. There is an assumption that when the 6th set of eras end, so will the world. I believe this assumption is entirely man made and, when Dalamud decends and destruction rains, the world will not end, but we will deem the land wiped clean by dark winds. And the cycle will continue.

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Originally Posted by Catapult

Even now in our own world theology holds sway over the question "What was before the big bang?"

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Though separate from the rest of my response, this question always gets me thinking. I'm sad that I won't be alive to see whether or not I'm right, but I think that, much like stars are born, burn, die, explode, collapse, and begin anew - so do universes. I'd like to think our big bang was part of an infinite chain; that what we call "the universe" is actually billions of these events. The space occupied by galaxies from our big bang will expand outwards, cool, and die out - leaving behind the matter to create the next chain in the explosive reaction.

Hell, for all we know, this is all going on within the basic structure of something much, much, larger...

BUT BACK TO EORZEA!

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Originally Posted by Catapult

Oh hang on, did I just say our earliest historic records are ICE AGE?!?!? (I'll let you munch on that, Moose.) ... what came before?

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Ahaha; never correlated those before. Nice catch.

We do know that the Allagan Empire arose around the same time as the Worship of the Twelve, which was in the Third Astral Era (Fire), which makes a lot of sense - the light and purification of old into new. If Gahoo's notions stand, and I think they bear their weight nicely, we are to assume that it is in this time that The Twelve (or their paragons) delivered to us "their" calendar.

Like you said, we didn't have much to go on before this; but we do know that they had 4 previous eras, two umbral and two astral -- unless "Year Zero" means that we didn't have a first umbral era - or that the first umbral era encompasses all that came before The Woken Races (1st Astral Era).

So, the Third Astral Era sees the rise of the Twelve, and maybe the calendar, which gives structure to what came before even though we don't know it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Catapult

Llymlaen, the navigator. She directs where to go. She sets the course and begins journeys. "Since the peace among the Twelve was broken and life was created to wage their wars." By placing her first and having the known floods (water) sixth, theologians also end up with the magical number of six that revolves through their mythology, making it just feel right.

...

And what came before the gods? What did they live through? Perhaps Llymlaen did direct the start of our dance, but that was not the beginning of time. Perhaps things did indeed begin with ice.

---

That's a brilliant way to look at it! If things were to start with wind, that would surely be why! As far as connecting it to the creation myths, though, literally any element could be seen as the first. In the Dusty Tomes, it is lightning's "spark" that lights the "fire" that ashes matter into "earth" that harbors the cold that creates "ice" that melts into "water" which evaporates into "wind."

Here, we see wind go last - but if we wanted to we could still say that this is a metaphor for the divine spark into the big bang into the cooling of matter that creates atmosphere to harbor ice that melts into water to create life...

Not saying that's the order I believe it goes in - hell, I'm not sure if there IS an order I count as canon yet. The only things I'm saying so far are (A) we should be careful about attributing our own metaphors to these, because (as demonstrated above) we could do that to ANY order and (B) whatever the true order is, the Dusty Tomes are inconsistent and confusing and likely don't represent the true measurements of time; so I'd like to know what they are.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Catapult

I'd like to get back into this wheel. It is, exactly that, a wheel, a circle, a cycle. As with the hours, the weeks and the years, it does not end and continues to turn. There is an assumption that when the 6th set of eras end, so will the world. I believe this assumption is entirely man made and, when Dalamud decends and destruction rains, the world will not end, but we will deem the land wiped clean by dark winds. And the cycle will continue.

---

That would have been my assumption, as well - but this business about possibly (though I know you don't buy into this possibility, it's still a possibility) of Astral and Umbral being tied into the rotation of the Ages in more ways than just the rotation of prosperity and hardship.

Each era is ruled by an element, and of these the realm hath borne witness to six.
This comes down to a matter of what "these" refers to. Like you said, it's possible that the Astral Eras don't really have elements at all - which means that we truly would have borne witness to six elemental eras. In that case, the Dusty Tomes should clarify that we've seen six CYCLES of eras, as it does in The Five Ages.

six cycles of the Eras have come to pass in keeping with the elemental order.

But perhaps it does just mean elements, who am I to say? Finding the truth is the purpose of this thread! ^^

Light and darkness yet remain, one of which the Divine Chronicles foretell shall next hold sway.
It's the sentence structure on this one that gets me. The others can be read one way or another depending on what a single pronoun refers to - but here the sentence structure is hard to mess with. Let's read the whole thing that those excerpts came from.

Urianger
All men seek truth, be they children of Eorzea and freedom, or slaves born into imperial bondage. Garlemald seeketh to gain from the coming cataclysm. Ever doth it pursue me to this end, covetous of the knowledge I possess. Yet I have hitherto 'scaped the grasping hands of darkness, as my presence here doth attest. Even so, in keeping my liberty, I have lost much...my journal not least of all. I know not where it hath come to rest, yet wheresoever it be, the Empire will be anon, and Eorzea can ill afford its truths to be seen by imperial eyes. If thou countest thyself a friend to righteousness, I beseech thee recover my journal, lest it be made to serve evil. I have little and less to offer by way of gratitude, yet what knowledge I possess, I should gladly share with thee. Till fate decree that we meet once more, may the Twelve watch over thee.

>> You go out and find a page from his journal >>

Twelve be praised, a page of my journal! Verily, the light of truth ever shineth upon they who would bask in its warmth. Very well. I shall honor my promise and share with thee that which I know. Each era is ruled by an element, and of these the realm hath borne witness to six. Light and darkness yet remain, one of which the Divine Chronicles foretell shall next hold sway.

Ne'er till land consumes sun can sea bear moons, Heavens spew crimson flame, hells seep black dooms. (Stray seeds quicken in ash’ss grey embrace, Valiant blades forge under the Twelve’s good grace.)

Will destruction rain down from the firmament? Or will it seep forth from the bowels of the nether? Whencesoever it cometh, man shall know such devastation as he hath never seen, nay not in his profoundest nightmare. Whether thou payest the prophecy heed is thy decision to make, and thine alone.

I can't find a way to read that in a way that doesn't say there are 2 cycles of eras still to come. Regardless if "these" refers to cycles, or elements to be represented in cycles, there's 2 left (4 eras) in his progression. I admit, it is still unclear what he means, but it seems to infer pretty clearly that light energy and dark energy will each get a cycle.

I find that bizarre in so many ways.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Catapult

perhaps the umbral era of water was marked as a time of destruction simply because the Allagan Empire could not adapt to it?

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I'm not positive, but I believe the Allagan Empire was destroyed during the fourth umbral era; which according to the clockwise rotation of the era (given credence by that we know it started with wind, passed through ice fifth and water sixth) was a time of Earth.

This thread is very interesting for what I'm trying to make a desktop app for. I'm mainly making a "Eorzea Clock" apps like there are already several of, but I have yet to find one that works on my Logitech G15 and G19 keyboard's display.

I currently have something like this (the year is fictional at the moment)
http://www.maeve.be/sites/default/fi...OMUS-PC001.png
(it show the same thing on the G19)

What I'm trying to figure out (as most people in this thread), what is really the order of things. I'd also like to know if there is any (in-game) way to know what the current "year" inside the current Era is (as to be able to associate a deity to it)

PS: Sorry for the necro-bump

Necro-bumps on this one welcome - though I'm getting nervous that either they don't want to tell me I'm wrong and hurt mah lalafeelings, they don't want to outright say that there's some inconsistencies and they're okay with that, or they've been sitting in a board room for six months with a table covered in papers filled with lore and math equations like, "AW, LAWD, HE'S RIGHT."



That app looks great! Someone over at ZAM made an app a loooong time ago that had a year calculation in it (though I'm not sure if it's any more canon than yours). The app had some bugs in it that made it not work entirely right, but a friend of mine worked out the kinks and it can still pull the 1.0-synced data.

I'll pull it up later and we can compare 1.0 years. To be safe, you should make a few different copies of your app... one that's counting years as you have it now, possible one compared to the ZAM one... Also, we've been told by SE over and over that the Seventh Umbral Era is STILL APPROACHING ... so, to be safe, I'd make a copy of your app that starts counting years EXACTLY at the time of impact on November 11th, as we'll be entering a new age and thus starting at Year 0 of the 7th Umbral Era.

And then a back-up copy in case they do something crazy like start the era on ARR server up.

Apologies as always for the double post

I've been working on a guide, based on the Dusty Tomes and speeches throughout the game, to help those in A Realm Reborn choose a nameday and patron that is representative of what they resonate with and relate to and think of as their place in the world.

This includes the calendar implied by the Dusty Tomes.

Will this format be changed at all in A Realm Reborn?

For instance, would Halone still be representative of the first month, which is associated with Ice, which shares an affinity with the first day of the week, thus making the 1st, 9th, 17th, and 25th of the First Astral Moon days strongly associated with her?

I made a lot of little mistakes the first time around when creating my affinities, and I don't want to do that again. It's time for me to put all the chips on Rhalgr ... lightning, 4th, 12, 20th, 28th of the Fouth Umbral Moon, yeah?)

If you find the free time, I wouldn't object to knowing how to pronounce their names, either. [/innocent whistling]

Thanks in advance for taking the time to read and/or possibly reply!

Also, maybe the element wheels will be changed - anyone notice how the primals are laid out on the primal poster behind Yoshi-P and co. during the live interview?

Bahamut
^
Ifrit <-> Shiva
Garuda <-> Titan
Leviathan <-> Ramuh
v
Odin

It could just be coincidence, but seeing the opposites now in place...maybe an introduction of polar elements, rather than wheels? And back to the old FF tradition where Fire was paired with Ice, Water with Lightning?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by whoopeeragon

Also, maybe the element wheels will be changed - anyone notice how the primals are laid out on the primal poster behind Yoshi-P and co. during the live interview?

Bahamut
^
Ifrit <-> Shiva
Garuda <-> Titan
Leviathan <-> Ramuh
v
Odin

It could just be coincidence, but seeing the opposites now in place...maybe an introduction of polar elements, rather than wheels? And back to the old FF tradition where Fire was paired with Ice, Water with Lightning?

---

While it could just be artistic license, you could indeed be on to something.

This elemental wheel seems to have fallen progressively into obscurity over the last year or so.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Catapult

While it could just be artistic license, you could indeed be on to something.

This elemental wheel seems to have fallen progressively into obscurity over the last year or so.

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It's just that current wheels are a bit...complicated. We have 4 current wheels if the tomes are to be believed.

There's the polar opposite wheel:

Astral <-> Umbral

Then the two elemental wheels:

Fire > Ice > Wind > Fire
Water > Earth > Thunder > Water

Then you have the defence wheel:

Earth > Fire > Lightning > Wind > Water > Ice > Earth

but even the last one has been thrown into obscurity with the addition of Garuda, who still take large amounts of damage from Thunder.

And seeing as Yoshi-P seems to be wanting to go back to the FF roots, having the elemental wheels changed to the traditional polarities isn't out of the picture either.

I'm actually really hoping that this isn't the case. It may be simpler, but it doesn't make as much philosophical sense and it messes with lore of The Twelve, iinm.

I should state early on that the reason Garuda takes so much damage from thunder is that Thundara and Thundaga's combo bonus effect is a considerably spike in Magic Attack Potency - this is why many BLM players stack intelligence (which can push thunder combos further, while M.Pot cannot) unless running a raid where Fire is a much better ally (Cutter's Cry). This hike in potency far outshines the two alternatives, fire (which she has a considerable resistance to) and ice (which is rooted more in controlling enemies than damaging them).

Yet ironically, Garuda's greatest weakness is still ice. People just don't use it much due to the issues it has with MP, inherently lower base potency, lack of a combo, longer cooldown and heavy being less useful. And there is no other source of ice damage in the game.

I'm bumping this thread, not only because I'd love a juicy reply, but because something else is bugging me along these same thematic lines.

Seasons.

As we know, Eorzea does not (at least currently) experience the impact of seasons upon its flora and fauna. In spite of this, it does have a summer festival (Firefall Faire) and a Winter Festival (the Starlight Festival). Putting aside the asbsence of an autumn (fall) as a consequence of graphical limitations, there is something I would like to re-examine...

The Dusty Tomes:

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Chapter 3 - The Years
The Year is made when the Moon goeth round the two Astral and Umbral poles, fluctuating between the six elements, and that in turn.

In this, the Year can be said to be the length of twelve Moons. The first and second Moons of the Year are the first astral and first Umbral, and together they share affinity with Ice.........

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So our year is linked to the elemental cycle. Check. Next up...

From Winter is not Coming:

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Waldomar: Sent here by the Black Rabbit Traders? Aye, I was told to expect you. A little late, to be sure, but late is better than never, I suppose. You've already been briefed aout our objective, I don't doubt. Aye, building a giant of snow to usher in the blessing of winter and all that. Now, I'll wager you're curious as to why we'd go to such lengths to celebrate a season synonymous with death. Well, my friend, death is but a spoke on the wheel of life. Wihtout it, the wheel would inevitably become warped…or so Grandmama used to tell us. To say it plain, plants and animals rely on the turning of the seasons. The coming of the cold tells them to hoard their food, to shed their leaves against the chill. And in its passing, winter leaves behind melted snow to nourish the land. But winter hasn't come to the North Shroud. The conjurers believe an imbalance in the aether is to blame, but no one can say for certain. Anywise, when we saw how despearate they were - and we Ala Mhigans are no strangers to desperation - we thought it might help to tell them about Winter's Knell.

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This suggests to the geomancer in me that Eorzea doesn't have a solar seasonal cycle, which here on Earth is caused by a tilted planetary axis that moves through a changing intensity of the sun's rays as the Earth moves around the sun. Rather, Eorzea's seasons are a consequence of the elemental cycle rather than the cause of the elemental cycle.

Now if we align December and January to the months/moons of Ice in order to align the Starlight Festival to Wintery elements, this allows August and September to align to Fire for the Firefall Faire. In doing so, we create an Eorzean year that begins with the First Astral Moon (ice) in December and concludes at the end of November.

This is where we hit a snag...

From our first Heavensturn:

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With the festive spirit of the Starlight Celebration still lingering in the air, the nations of Eorzea have already set about making ready for the next grand holiday—Heavensturn.

Heavensturn is a celebration that marks the passing of the twelve moons in the night sky, and with them, the vigil of each of the Twelve over the realm. It is on this sacred day that one among the gods wins celestial favor, and whose aspect thus exerts the greatest influence over the fate of Eorzea throughout the coming year. Clergymen, soothsayers, shamans, and others versed in such matters foretell that with this turning, the time of Halone, the Fury, will come.

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By celebrating Heavensturn on the mundane and Western New Years, this suggests Jan/Feb is Ice, which makes the Starlight Festival held during the Umbral Moon of Earth while the Firefall Faire begins during the Umbral Moon of Lightning.

Why is everything off by a month? If we celebrated Heavensturn in late February for the Chinese New Year, this would be even more skewed.

On a slightly related note, we don't yet know which of the Twelve will have favour this year and is represented in distant lands by the Snake. If it is Nophica, a simple and logical assumption given her patroned city has twin adders in their emblem, then we've gone Halone (rabbit, astral ice) > Althyk (dragon, umbral earth) > Nophica (snake, astral earth). Why are they then rotating in reverse order?

Excellent thread pulling together the inconsistencies of the cycles and elements.

From some references I saw back in 2010, it seemed like SE changed the order of some of the guardians/months around late alpha or early beta (1.0). It was like the system wasn't thought out well, or they were trying to correct inconsistencies but introduced more. That's just speculation, but there was evidence of other inconsistencies.

The phase of the moon in the sky in v1.x rarely matched the phase on the icon. SE did fix the nighttime sky "ticking" like a clock's seconds hand early on, but never the moon's phases.

Also, not a small effort was made by some players to figure out elemental effects, especially in crafting. A lot of people in FFXI enjoyed this scholarly aspect and hoped to master this knowledge for FFXIV. Not only was no pattern was found, it was determined that spamming "Standard" synth any time/day/weather yielded consistently more success than any other pattern. That signaled "game over" for that effort.

Even if SE has to change some things from v1, I hope they will add this deeper element of elemental effects into ARR. This current cataclysm is a perfect opportunity to fix the inconsistencies noted throughout this thread. And for FFXI players, its absence makes the world seem a bit less real than what we're used to from SE.

SE doesn't have to spell it out in lore books or forum posts, but hopefully can drop hints from crafting guild NPCs if such effects exist. They are, after all, the ones who should know about and teach such things. A worldwide army of statistician gamers armed with spreadsheets and elemental effects charts will do the rest. :)

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Originally Posted by ArkhamNative

From some references I saw back in 2010, it seemed like SE changed the order of some of the guardians/months around late alpha or early beta (1.0).

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This is true, and also sort of sad in a way because some of their lore was based on things that changed. I'll use Nymeia as an example. The conflict of XIV is based on the Greek city states when faced with invasion by the Persians (even though the Empire in this game takes more cues from Rome than Persia, but I digress). Nymeia is kind of a fusion between the Greek fate Clotho and her Roman equivalent Nona. The relationship to Saturn (Althyk) is still visible, but the connection to Nona has faded a bit - the fate spun by Clotho/Nona is that of life itself, and Nona (The Ninth) was invoked during the last (9th) month of pregnancy. Originally, Nymeia was associated with the Ninth moon, but that got shifted around when the elements were realigned to act in the Ice-to-Ice cycle mentioned above.

I'm still not really sure what they have up their sleeve for ARR - whether it's changed at all or what. I'd love to get a guide together for helping people choose name days and patron deities that fit their style, job preference, etc. but I just don't know for sure, yet.

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Originally Posted by ArkhamNative

SE doesn't have to spell it out in lore books or forum posts, but hopefully can drop hints from crafting guild NPCs if such effects exist.

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XI was rather merciless in that regard - by the time half of the mechanics were understood, the game was past its prime. Hell, XIV was released before players even figured out how to spawn a few of the NMs! I'm not looking forward to a repeat of that, especially not a repeat of using java calculators and third party calendars to figure out when to do everything. As you say, I hope it's more of a take in some clues and trial and error your way to skillful play kind of thing. Long calculations and extreme manipulations are neat and all, but only for that last 5% of effectiveness OOMPH if you really, really care.

wow its pretty deep in here...

good news, after the awakening of bahamut the tomes seem to have been pulverized into nothingness... a new version of time flow and elemental charts is been developed in PDF format so or eorzean citizens will be able to read it on the aether Kindle 1.0