[Level Sync] Needs a revisit

Okay so, I know this is old news at this point but all the threads are either locked, archived or buried. So, revisiting this!

WHY is it that Level Sync has to take away all your skills? It's the only real gripe I've have about FFXIV as a whole. Losing skills to do older content/fates is just not fun. I don't see why we have to lose everything to go back.

Honestly, I feel like this system needs a revisit for the next expansion. It shouldn't be necessary anymore, especially not with people trying to play catch up. Who cares if your newer skills have incredible potencies not designed for older dungeons/trials/fates? If we're leveling new jobs and have to periodically get gimped to lower levels, we should be allowed to use our more powerful skills to get the job done faster. It's plenty tedious in the first place. It should only be a stat squish at this point.

I know it's not a popular opinion, but you have to look at it from the perspective of "Next expansion the level cap will be 100. It will take THAT MUCH longer to get there if you start a new job at level 1." Enough's enough now. lol it's time to update the older systems in this game to be less annoying. Speaking of which, older relic grinds, but that'll be another post.

The hardest part is getting to within 10 levels of the current cap. It's soul-sapping to do roulettes and be stuck in old dungeons/raids "at the speed limit". Shouldn't be a roadblock we should have to contend with while trying to gain XP in larger quantities at this stage in the game's life.

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Originally Posted by Baklavah

WHY is it that Level Sync has to take away all your skills? It's the only real gripe I've have about FFXIV as a whole. Losing skills to do older content/fates is just not fun. I don't see why we have to lose everything to go back.

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Personally I am super cool with not needing my full level 90 rotation against level 17 mobs that die in 10 seconds. Especially if I'm in a party with an actual level 17 player who can out-DPS me with 3 buttons.

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Originally Posted by Baklavah

Honestly, I feel like this system needs a revisit for the next expansion. It shouldn't be necessary anymore, especially not with people trying to play catch up. Who cares if your newer skills have incredible potencies not designed for older dungeons/trials/fates? If we're leveling new jobs and have to periodically get gimped to lower levels, we should be allowed to use our more powerful skills to get the job done faster. It's plenty tedious in the first place. It should only be a stat squish at this point.

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Who cares? How about new players. I honestly wouldn't be having any fun in dungeons as a new player if the other people in the party are doing 5-10 times as much damage as me and basically 1-shotting most enemies because they have their full kit where as I'm still stuck with a 1-2 button combo and no AoE.

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Originally Posted by Espon

Who cares? How about new players. I honestly wouldn't be having any fun in dungeons as a new player if the other people in the party are doing 5-10 times as much damage as me and basically 1-shotting most enemies because they have their full kit where as I'm still stuck with a 1-2 button combo and no AoE.

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Our damage would be scaled down SIGNIFICANTLY. It's not like we'll be 1-to-2-shotting things with that in mind. I don't get the aversion to the concept. But whatever.

Trying to scale down complete kits to the damage of a level 17 sprout who only has 1-2-3 sounds like needless effort. It's not just about the potency of the skills, it's the fact that we're doing much more sustained damage simply because we have more abilities. I'd rather that the jobs get the core parts of their endgame rotation earlier.

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Originally Posted by Baklavah

Who cares if your newer skills have incredible potencies not designed for older dungeons/trials/fates? If we're leveling new jobs and have to periodically get gimped to lower levels, we should be allowed to use our more powerful skills to get the job done faster. It's plenty tedious in the first place. It should only be a stat squish at this point.

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Just imagine a GLD getting ready for their first ever dungeon inside Sastasha. It's going to be a thrilling adventure, signing up for an extremely dangerous job to delve into a dark cave where pirates are doing shady business!

They load in, watch the cutscene, see their fellow adventurers, and before they even get to say "Hi", a giant Bahamut is summoned from thin air and shoots a death beam towards some bats.

The GLD isn't even needed since all healers have a bajillion tools to keep anyone alive, so the entire team sprints past the dungeon to clear as fast as possible. I don't know about you, but that's some immersion-breaking stuff to me. The main appeal of FFXIV is the story, after all, so being able to feel your own growth instead of depending on level 90 god-killing heroes to do the dungeon for you is pretty important for enjoying the game.

Other MMOs do content syncs just fine without taking skills away. If they can do it so can ffxiv. I refuse to use roulette simply because of how level sync works. The rewards are not worth the boredom.

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Originally Posted by Baklavah

Our damage would be scaled down SIGNIFICANTLY. It's not like we'll be 1-to-2-shotting things with that in mind. I don't get the aversion to the concept. But whatever.

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The why is obvious. The devs want instanced content to remain balanced for all jobs.

Tell the group, how do you scale Benediction's full heal?

How do you scale Hallowed Ground's damage invulnerability?

There is literally no logistical way to truly balance full kits to scale with players at-level. The level of work that would be involved is tremendous, and would more than likely fail to be adequate anyway.

Compared to the already extant level sync, there's simply no justifiable reason to overhaul an already working system for one that would fail to meet the same requirements they have set.

If you don't enjoy running synced content, the simplest solution is to stop running synced content. The game doesn't force you to run roulettes.

Bonus: Here, have a very small partial breakdown of what this request actually involves, brought up the last time this was discussed.

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Originally Posted by Baklavah

Our damage would be scaled down SIGNIFICANTLY. It's not like we'll be 1-to-2-shotting things with that in mind. I don't get the aversion to the concept. But whatever.

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It has been said previously but I'll add this as well:

So now you have two problems.

1. How do you balance AST's card system, Divination, Mug (previously TA), Chain Strat? Benediction - a full heal? Tank Invuls? Battle Litinany? Arcane Circle? Any other party buff I missed? How do you balance a healer's lv90 kit in lv15 Satasha without the healer being bored when they are already bored now? (see: Healer complaints #1337) How do you balance WAR's healing?
   
2. How do you balance the effort a lv50+ person has to put in vs a lv15 sprout? For instance, at lv15 currently as a Tank I have a 1-2-3 combo. Taking my GNB for instance, I'm at lv90 with my full Gnashing Fang combo, Double Down, 3 cartridges, and Hypervelocity. ...And doing all that I'd be dishing about the same damage as a tank with a 1-2-3 combo? Or... if I'm NOT, then the even if the damage is scaled down the bosses and trash are going to be cut down much faster?

You can't just remove skill sync and "rebalance numbers" in a game that never was going to do that to begin with. That's an overhaul of ARR porportions tbh.

Edit: I also forgot to add the dungeons weren't balanced around every party member having AOEs either. Some melees don't get theirs til their 40s and beyond and healers don't get theirs until 47? or around there. And WHM has HOLY a stun!

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Originally Posted by Baklavah

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Like 10 Years ago, I was playing some SWTOR and when you tag PvP in there, you can find exactly what you said here. HL People keep their skills while Low level don't have their full kit.

This was such a huge mess and imperfect things to do because Lvl max player could literraly obliterate the opponent who just have 2 buttons with no balance.

Applying this things here would be a huge mess, like other people said, you can't expect to have Sprout enjoy the game because of that. Monster in low level dungeon are melting fast as hell already. Allowing full lvl 90 Rotation on this poor Captain Madison will make him instantly ragequit the fight... Twice !

So it's a Hard no from me, because things can't get balanced that way.

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Originally Posted by TabrisOmbrelame

Like 10 Years ago, I was playing some SWTOR and when you tag PvP in there, you can find exactly what you said here. HL People keep their skills while Low level don't have their full kit.

This was such a huge mess and imperfect things to do because Lvl max player could literraly obliterate the opponent who just have 2 buttons with no balance.

Applying this things here would be a huge mess, like other people said, you can't expect to have Sprout enjoy the game because of that. Monster in low level dungeon are melting fast as hell already. Allowing full lvl 90 Rotation on this poor Captain Madison will make him instantly ragequit the fight... Twice !

So it's a Hard no from me, because things can't get balanced that way.

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Ok? But we're not talking about PvP....SWTOR level sync in their Flashpoints work really well. Also, swtor didn't have level sync 10 years ago. You simply just got ganked by a higher level player. Comes with the territory of a pvp server. If you didn't want to that to happen you shouldn't have rolled on a pvp server.

Okay, so take all the damage you do at level 15 in satasha over the course of two minutes. 1 or 2k damage.

So, pretend you have to press your full 90 rotation to do that much damage.

Now your 1, 2, 3, is doing 1, 2 and 3 damage. Your biggest hit in your biggest burst, does 200 damage.

Do you really want to rip your heart out, and do your absolute best, to do that little damage?

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Originally Posted by ICountFrom0

Okay, so take all the damage you do at level 15 in satasha over the course of two minutes. 1 or 2k damage.

So, pretend you have to press your full 90 rotation to do that much damage.

Now your 1, 2, 3, is doing 1, 2 and 3 damage. Your biggest hit in your biggest burst, does 200 damage.

Do you really want to rip your heart out, and do your absolute best, to do that little damage?

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It's not about that though. It's about having access to your full list of skills and it being FUN to play. I've got to tell you, leveling roulette forcing you to push 2 buttons makes me fall asleep at the wheel because it's boring now. I've unlocked all this stuff and you're locking it away. The lack of entertainment factor is the problem with having to do lower level content in roulettes. It's BEYOND boring to lose stuff. Even if it's only for a short time, it tears away the fun factor.

You find it boring to do less.

I would find it depressing to get so little out of doing more.

Two kinds of people.

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Originally Posted by Baklavah

It's not about that though. It's about having access to your full list of skills and it being FUN to play. I've got to tell you, leveling roulette forcing you to push 2 buttons makes me fall asleep at the wheel because it's boring now. I've unlocked all this stuff and you're locking it away. The lack of entertainment factor is the problem with having to do lower level content in roulettes. It's BEYOND boring to lose stuff. Even if it's only for a short time, it tears away the fun factor.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

If you don't enjoy running synced content, the simplest solution is to stop running synced content. The game doesn't force you to run roulettes.

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Stop running leveling roulette if you don't want to be synced down.

Or get a party together and set a limited leveling roulette.

You're choosing to voluntarily run content you don't find fun, and complaining that it's not fun for you.

I think the best thing they can do is to ease the gear sync so that your stats are a smidge higher when sync'd down then how they currently are atm. Kinda like how when u do so for FATEs you're not usually sync'ed down to the exact level of the FATE, you're actually a few levels higher, if they could do that with the gear sync 'ing so that they can give u a little ilvl bump that way, that would probably make it (feel) like less of a slog.

Aside from an adjustment that is equally as unobtrusive as would be to their Dev schedule (not even sure how feasible it is) I wouldn't expect the Devs to adjust the system too much, as the upsides for how it currently is do outweigh the downsides in their view, I imagine.

Honestly what you ask for OP is more hassle than it's actually worth since by default it's something that would need to be done for each job individually and manually for each level range depending on when the job gets the upgrades. How do you compensate for utility that the on level job lacks like AoE damage on Dragoons prior to mid 40s? Or the additional utilities tacked onto Black Mage the further you go? Actually that one is an interesting case study on its own.

Let's assume you somehow manage to Equate the damage between max level skillset and at 4 different combinations depending on the level range (and for the record it's just fire spells. For simplicity sake I omitted Thunder) Hell let's assume rhat for level 15-20 (earliest dungeons) and 20-35 you somehow balance between max level Astral Flame and lower stacks. Hell let's also assume you somehow solved issues with Enochian and the Polyglot spells that aren't static parts of your rotation as they mostly fill in the blanks if you have a slot for extra GCD. Now let's look at all the things that don't have direct damage numbers on them. How you balance Umbral Ice? If you lower the mana ticks to keep similar phase ratios you essentially ruin the flow of high level BLM. If you nerf damage on AF even further to compensate for higher ratio of AF to UI you'll make BLM damage pitiful compared ro their "on level" version during shorter encounters. What about Umbral Hearts which additionally extend the Astral Flame and allow for things like Casting an extra Flare during AoE pulls? Triplecast that allows for moments of Hyper Mobility or weaving in whatever extra abilities you still have making Quadruple Flare swift and easy?

The fact that this topic resurfaces consistently and no thought being put into the required workload, requirements to make the system work and repercussions from implementing it before posting such threads really baffles me.

I mean I get it, not everyone studies game design nor do they care much beyond personal interest, but a little research would really explain quickly why the suggestion will fall flat on its' ass as soon as you mention it.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Other MMOs do content syncs just fine without taking skills away. If they can do it so can ffxiv. I refuse to use roulette simply because of how level sync works. The rewards are not worth the boredom.

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How? Explain this in great detail, please.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Ok? But we're not talking about PvP....SWTOR level sync in their Flashpoints work really well. Also, swtor didn't have level sync 10 years ago. You simply just got ganked by a higher level player. Comes with the territory of a pvp server. If you didn't want to that to happen you shouldn't have rolled on a pvp server.

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This wasn't in open world, it was in a battleground, and it was level synced to maximum if you weren't max. BUT because the game was based on a talent tree, you only have the level synced up. You didn't get any buffs to compensate, or any skill related to your "synced level", and that leaded to unbalanced PvP.

I know you are not talking about PvP, but that was an exemple I took that's getting close to was you were saying. FFXIV don't have a base game that goes with that system, and even if they do it, they will need to rebalance the entire game from scraps to do so.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

The fact that this topic resurfaces consistently...

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Or maybe it means that this problem is actually worth looking into? Level sync in XIV is hot garbage.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

Or maybe it means that this problem is actually worth looking into?

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It really isn't. To be done well, to achieve the goals the devs have in place, that of striking a (near) balance between players across all levels, the entire system would need redesigned from the ground up.

That is never in any way "worth it."

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Originally Posted by Azuri

Or maybe it means that this problem is actually worth looking into? Level sync in XIV is hot garbage.

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For one, to each their own - I enjoy having to operate jobs differently depending on the level range. Having to repeat the same exact rotation regardless of level range once I reach max level would bore me to death more than having less buttons to leverage performance with.

For another, as many have said before me, the amount of effort and ressources required to actually design LevelSync-but-not-actually-Sync without any of these conditions happening:

• High Lv Player providing the same value with exponentially greater effort (= unhappy High Lv Player because unfair value:effort ratio)
• High Lv Player providing more exponentially greater value than Low Lv Player (= unhappy Low Lv Player because powercrept)

When the former is a thing, it may be subjectively more fun for some, but is generally biased towards new players in value. When the latter happens, the system is biased towards high level players because they have many more broken tools that cannot be affected by scaling.

Lastly, assuming condition 1 happens and we try to make it fair - how do you even design a system, that dynamically adjusts damage values, potencies, defensive, offensive and restorative properties of each action just to keep the power level of say a Level 90 the same as a Lv50 player? What if the Lv50 levels up mid run? Does the damage of the Lv90 get unnerfed? What if we have a Lv90, 75, 62 and 50 player in one run? Do we scale around the Lv50 player or do we create an average between levels and scale it that way? What about enemy stats?

Those are all possibilities one needs to consider if they made toolkits available regardless of level for a fair system. This isn't the first time I explained it to someone and no matter of how "boring" a level range is for someone, it is not worth designing a system like this - the workload is astronomical and would span multiple expansions to get right, but at what cost?

If we want to ask for something, ask for them moving more skills down the list like DRK receiving Stalwart Soul now at Lv40 rather than Lv72. Make jobs less top-heavy in upgrades and more some things down and rescale content and / or potencies around that.

I kinda agree with the OP, it would make it easier for us to learn the new skills we get.

Ive been running NIN through levelling roulette and I've really been struggling to learn lv60+ rotations because half of the time Im rolling dungeons where the skills are disabled.

While NIN is a lot of fun, I wouldnt say I really know what Im doing and find myself staring at my skills when I should be paying attention to mechanics. If the skills were unlocked in synced content then I think I would have a better feel for whats going on.

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Originally Posted by Tiramu

I kinda agree with the OP, it would make it easier for us to learn the new skills we get.

Ive been running NIN through levelling roulette and I've really been struggling to learn lv60+ rotations because half of the time Im rolling dungeons where the skills are disabled.

While NIN is a lot of fun, I wouldnt say I really know what Im doing and find myself staring at my skills when I should be paying attention to mechanics. If the skills were unlocked in synced content then I think I would have a better feel for whats going on.

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You could also level up by doing the currently two highest available dungeons - while they don't net as much EXP per duty as Duty Roulette, they DO give you exactly what you want - an environment to level up while using your new tools.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

You could also level up by doing the currently two highest available dungeons - while they don't net as much EXP per duty as Duty Roulette, they DO give you exactly what you want - an environment to level up while using your new tools.

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I appreciate that and maybe it is somewhat self inflicted. I just find the lv roulette turns over battles more quickly so gravitate towards it.

But yeah, point taken.

*laughs in Blue Mage*

Three expansions of thinning out job kits at lower levels... it's time to scale some of that back so that level sync doesn't feel like sh*t.

All jobs should have an AoE by level 15 (Sastasha), and all of your core utilities (Verraise, Closed Position etc.) and full weaponskill combo tree by level 50. Re-tune content accordingly.

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Originally Posted by AtomicBomb

Three expansions of thinning out job kits at lower levels... it's time to scale some of that back so that level sync doesn't feel like sh*t.

All jobs should have an AoE by level 15 (Sastasha), and all of your core utilities (Verraise, Closed Position etc.) and full weaponskill combo tree by level 50. Re-tune content accordingly.

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AOEs baseline available (minus maybe healers) definitely.

I got mixed feelings about Closed Position, as Dancer's damage output at Lv50 is already strong by sheer potencies alone. All Lv50 Closed Position would do is powercreep Lv50 content further with no actual change to DNC gameplay (no Curing Waltz, no Esprit, no Devilment).

Verraise and by proxy SMN Resurrection are two actions that are consistently on the chopping block due to the level of progression utility it brings in basically all types of content. Lv50 and Lv60 RDM gives very high damage + mobility for those level ranges. While one could make an argument that "lower level content without ultimates doesn't matter", giving RDM raise before BLM gets their mobility to maintain damage is a bit overkill.

Unpopular opinion, but I'd prefer they axe ACN/SMN/RDM raises completely and leave this to Healer Role only. Replace the lost utility with something else, perhaps on OGCD even.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

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Addendum to previous post:

RDM Vercure should maybe be on charges and an ability rather than a spell, similar to SMN's Radiant Aegis. It would give RDM a more friendly way to support teammates outside of damage without actually crippling their damage.

By proxy, a replacement for Verraise could maybe be Vermedica under similar design choices like Vercure.

Based on this, Magick Barrier's healing potency increase would play into the strengths of those as well. Give it a thought!

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Originally Posted by AtomicBomb

Three expansions of thinning out job kits at lower levels... it's time to scale some of that back so that level sync doesn't feel like sh*t.

All jobs should have an AoE by level 15 (Sastasha), and all of your core utilities (Verraise, Closed Position etc.) and full weaponskill combo tree by level 50. Re-tune content accordingly.

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swtor at one point did this where you get all your core skills super early and all the passive stuff came later. They recently reverted that for some unknown reason, but at the time it was pretty awesome to get my core ability from that class tree at level 10.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Addendum to previous post:

RDM Vercure should maybe be on charges and an ability rather than a spell, similar to SMN's Radiant Aegis. It would give RDM a more friendly way to support teammates outside of damage without actually crippling their damage.

By proxy, a replacement for Verraise could maybe be Vermedica under similar design choices like Vercure.

Based on this, Magick Barrier's healing potency increase would play into the strengths of those as well. Give it a thought!

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I mean...eh, as is just converting Vercure to charges would be a mistake imo. Having vercure be the radiant aegis / manaward equivalent would be...eh, okay I guess? I see where the idea comes from but it doesn't fill the same function (fortifying a caster's HP due to their lower max HP and lower phys def) and still leaves RDM as the squishiest caster, especially in any case where physical raidwides or unavoidable physical damage is concerned. However if the goal is just to allow RDM free oGCD healing on teammates and not to bolster themselves, the suggestion does fulfill that function.

As well, at current vercure's primary use case is to prep a dualcast during downtime. Get rid of that, you'd be stripping RDM of its only downtime ability, making any downtime such a painful experience for the job.

In lieu of vermedica, I raise you (heh) verassize.